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As far as I know, the devs have never told us if there's a specific formula for how they balance such differing effects against each other. Invul doesn't have capped DDR, but it does have a significant amount of DDR, plus a big ToHit buff and a massive HP boost/heal.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Because inv isn't able to give the character a 65% damage buff and capped DDR?
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Presuming both have soft-capped defense and capped S/L resistance, does that make Shield the better set, or Invul? Honestly, I have no idea, and my impression is that the devs don't have formal way of evaluating such questions either.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
No, but it can have a heal, an even bigger HP boost, some -end res, some -rech res, some DDR and a fair amount of +To Hit. Is that enough trade off for those two things?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Because inv isn't able to give the character a 65% damage buff and capped DDR?
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I don't know.
Be well, people of CoH.
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That makes two of us. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't know.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Three, at least.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
That makes two of us.
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My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Originally Posted by Rylas
No, but it can have a heal, an even bigger HP boost, some -end res, some -rech res, some DDR and a fair amount of +To Hit. Is that enough trade off for those two things?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't know.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
That makes two of us.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
Three, at least.
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Still, it's a gut feeling and not backed up by any analysis of the numbers.
I do enjoy playing both sets and I can tank anything I've run across with either although Invuln has a marked advantage against some things like Ruuarlu and DE. On the other hand Shield is better against the very rare Psi mobs.
In the final analysis both sets perform very well.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Today my shield/stone got hit by a longbow warden's dominate (does not check against positional defense) for more damage than he had max hitpoints due to autohit -res. He got rezzed back up, and was hit by levitate (which ignores positional defenses as well) for 2203 damage, awarding me a debt badge.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
On the other hand Shield is better against the very rare Psi mobs.
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I just thought I'd throw that anecdote out there.
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Minor points in a preamble to a major one: /ea brutes can hit around 35% psi def while softcapping everything else (potentially a little more in an extreem build). Throw the soul mastery ppp and you're there for the few freakish fights where you'll need it. Granite can protect itsself surprisingly well from psi in a pinch with modest psi def and lots of +HP and regen. Sure it's not the soft cap, but it's not too shabby. For corner case entertainment value I could also mention that extreem WP builds can also get most of the soft cap, though there's generally going to be one type they have to choose to miss. Ice can probably hit 38+ psi def in addition to it's other tricks, at least so long as you take a patron pool with a pet.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Ice/Fire seems to get a lot of the resist bonuses. Helpful for Ice tanks, but the better bonus values come from Purples. Which is odd, because it takes three from a Purple set to get 2.52%, but you get basically the same resist values with three Gift of the Ancients. So GotA needs to come down, or (and I would prefer) Purple sets need to be adjusted upward on their fire resist bonus.
First off, it's only a few sets that can even achieve a def cap to a) positional or b) typed defense. And the latter usually doesn't include psi. Some squishy ATs can make the soft cap for one position or type, but not across the board without making extremely gimped builds. Only melee toons can achieve real significant across the board numbers, and only in a few sets. Those sets would be Shields, Super Reflexes, Stone (in Granite) and Energy Aura. Those last two have no Psi protection. The first two have no heals. Ice Armor will only be capped to S/L/E/N. A good amount of coverage, but hardly as impressive as the rest |
I submit that def bonuses are far more popular, and they are far more popular because they are far more powerful and useful than res bonuses. I submit that the market prices of these sets can stand testament to this fact if nothing else can.
I further submit that +res needs a cookie. I don't think you, or in fact most on this thread would dissagree with that.
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Second, I don't think anyone here is asking that they be able to cap res across the board on all their armor sets. Mainly because, unlike many defense sets, resist numbers vary quite a bit within resist sets. Electric, Dark and Fire only have very high resist in one damage type, and low to moderate numbers in the rest. Dark doesn't even self-cap in ANY type. So even if the devs made resist bonuses more available in moderate numbers, it would be difficult or impossible to see a tank sitting at the cap on all resists. As it stands now, a defensive tank with across the board soft-cap numbers is still not as durable as high-number resist set with moderate defense bonuses. Nor is it overpowered for resist sets to have those defense bonuses, because it does require making sacrifices in most cases. Defense Debuff and +to hit in NPCs is numerous enough to overcome those bonuses. Where does this leave a soft-cap melee toon with no (or low) resists? |
I submit that with overslotting and tough, even a modest increase in the general availablility of IO +res will very quickly lead to the same scaling problem that def has, only I submit that it would be a more severe problem, for the very reasons you yourself list: lower vulnerability to debuffs, and THB. I'll conceed that some areas of + res could be more available without much problem. Toxic res, for example, is not likely to break too many builds, but for physical and environmental... I don't think much can be added. Electric, fire and dark with tough are all pushing on various levels of "close" even with current IO builds. Adding another +10% here or there would probably be ok, but more (the kind of more that +def can muster) is going to get sketchy.
I think this is the fundimental point on which we'd dissagree. Can +res be increased without causing issues, and if so, by how much?
Would an ele tank that caps everything but toxic and negative be ok? What if they only missed negative? [edit:I just threw that in because I personally feel that toxic +res really is one place where builds should be able to go hog wild... feel free to ignore this case if you wish]
How about a fire tank that only misses toxic and cold?
How about a granite tank?
Any low increase that avoids potential problems is likely to be sufficiently low, that for the majority of builds, stacking def is still going to be the way to go.
Thus my suggestion that we give +res something else.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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I'd like to see a build for that, please. I have a EA/Dark brute that has soft-cap to all but Psi (with no Psi defense worth noting) and it took quite a bit of work to make sure that build remained functional as a brute. Considering the slots necessary to build what I have, and what it takes for most Psi Defense bonuses (6 slots) and what sets those bonuses come from, I can't imagine a brute powerful enough to make it worth the sacrifice. You could prove me wrong with a build, but I'm skeptical its one many people would want to play, let alone one that would tear through content. |
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
Minor points in a preamble to a major one: /ea brutes can hit around 35% psi def while softcapping everything else (potentially a little more in an extreem build).
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Quote:
| I submit that def bonuses are far more popular, and they are far more popular because they are far more powerful and useful than res bonuses. I submit that the market prices of these sets can stand testament to this fact if nothing else can. |
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| Here's the problem: I think the function of a great many of the suggestions here would actually be to allow many tanks to softcap most or in some cases almost all resistances. |
I'm working on slotting up a Shield/Stone in Mids right now to see if I can max out S/L resists and cap the defense. It' not happening. Even if you doubled all the values and gave it the defense bonus treatment, you're looking at mid-60's. I'm still working on the build, but I'm not seeing any possibility to get across the board numbers on res that would be substantial. (note: I'll be posting this build when finished)
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| I submit that with overslotting and tough, even a modest increase in the general availablility of IO +res will very quickly lead to the same scaling problem that def has, only I submit that it would be a more severe problem, for the very reasons you yourself list: lower vulnerability to debuffs, and THB. |
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| Would an ele tank that caps everything but toxic and negative be ok? What if they only missed negative? [edit:I just threw that in because I personally feel that toxic +res really is one place where builds should be able to go hog wild... feel free to ignore this case if you wish] |
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| How about a granite tank? |
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Any low increase that avoids potential problems is likely to be sufficiently low, that for the majority of builds, stacking def is still going to be the way to go. Thus my suggestion that we give +res something else. |
You say defense is still the way to go, but that's a cop out. Yeah its the way to go, because it's the only one offered enough, and with enough bonus values to make it worth it. But on a set that has inherently good defense values, maybe I'd like to add resist to it. Maybe I don't want a one trick pony. Adding defense to a Res set does a lot better than just adding resist on top of it. Defense based sets should be able to at least get resist bonuses that aren't laughable. It's just as balanced as a Blaster with capped range defense, or a Dominator with perma-dom.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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As I suspected would be the case. I'm looking forward to seeing what you were able to do with it.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
I'm working on slotting up a Shield/Stone in Mids right now to see if I can max out S/L resists and cap the defense. It' not happening. Even if you doubled all the values and gave it the defense bonus treatment, you're looking at mid-60's. I'm still working on the build, but I'm not seeing any possibility to get across the board numbers on res that would be substantial. (note: I'll be posting this build when finished)
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What some people seem to be forgetting is that even high-defense sets have to devote a fair number of slots to soft-cap, slots which therefore cannot be used to slot for resist bonuses. Even with SR, which is very easy to soft-cap, I can't see how you could get near to capping resists, since it starts with no resist powers at all.
Improving resistance bonuses to the point where they're a viable choice and they'd be just that--a choice to add moderate resists to a defense build, or to improve certain resist amounts in a resistance set instead of aiming for defense.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
No time to do most of the reply, I'll need to do that later, but here was Zandram a few years back...
There might be a better way now, this is an old build. I threw a heal in energy drain, but this build was before that power could heal, so... it's kind of an afterthought.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(3), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Dam%(50)
Level 1: Kinetic Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(7), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Haymaker -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Mako-Dam%(39)
Level 4: Power Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(13), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(15), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Mako-Acc/Dmg(46)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(21), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(33), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Hectmb-Dam%(40)
Level 10: Entropy Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(17)
Level 14: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(17), Heal-I(19)
Level 18: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(25), EndMod-I(25)
Level 22: Energy Cloak -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(27), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(29), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(29)
Level 24: Tough -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(31)
Level 26: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(34)
Level 28: Energy Drain -- RechRdx-I(A), Heal-I(46)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(34), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(36)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- Sciroc-Dam%(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(36), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(37), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(37), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37)
Level 35: Hurl -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(40), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 38: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 41: Gloom -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Dam%(42), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apoc-Dmg(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Soul Tentacles -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(45), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(45), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(45)
Level 47: Summon Widow -- S'bndAl-Build%(A), S'bndAl-Dmg/EndRdx(48), S'bndAl-Dmg(48), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Darkest Night -- EndRdx-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 4: Ninja Run
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1402;678;1356;HEX;| |78DA9D945B6F12511485CF149052A0802DA5A5AD85B61428EDB4BC7949ACBD264D4| |AD24A8C468D84B4A7304A2819405B7DF107F8608C3ED6DBB3D1E8A3FE187F0AEEBD| |D72989F1CD09AC0FF6D97BCD9A330CA5D3AD90522FD79415DC6C54DBEDCA86DBED6| |85FA95A730E955F29959442A5A41B5ADBE56E4BBB9572C7D5CD5AA73E81A52D7DAC| |9B6D6D6F37B55B3BABAC77DD6A6CB759D7D4D4B12F3E84F74F4E1AF68E53AB779C6| |62D24DFF674B5D5FFB2E3749ABADD8E5CAC1C69B75D775A89ED967368E344E5936E| |A352AAB63BDA3D1BA768797ACF5ACA1C3D9F3A2614D5400DA80BBC0EF058507C22F| |8C20332D9F3A8B8C5A54BA34054301813CC59A68DDC2DB80FC27D08EE43700FC17D| |01EE5F493DC6DD03F710DC87E13E0C778BF6D70777AF6F9F2F468DDD060E04C9B26| |01967CED090DF84F12F0C7069340BE404A9BC606151902D08BE517F006154A04787| |1A2393202A5610F1A2E6E269256C7AC3D2EBA74A049581C8BCC4880297812C2DC62| |C4BCC6205AC0083343A62464752521AFF0BDF49E3669BE2C891448E296CD314B6C9| |434609D397C8D187ACBA320F64005E9D565EEA9B307D13F04BC12F05BF34FC7E50C| |7A442E449645DC6C5C4C861DA384CC3210D87341CE6E090279D317762E6858CCE3D| |059E09E64F8133E0B980A3CF9AA9D973FC60DE63133F001F058B9F90E9B32041993| |29852999C940E3D4AE58C516E59EE72BE08AC024B82451B58111CD15401539EC26B| |B98EA537C03BE0ADE098FA6CE36E6FCAE8CA0670135813146F01EB82DFF42FB26A6| |2AEA625E694B7FF68D28B7F4D7BFF54F6BDFD074C5952D9F1F61FCD5E204A0F1256| |FFF7F819BA3865E06088B4CC7287E52ECB3D96FB2C0F581EB23C62A9B0F47EF5A72| |35739D73596EB2C3758E2944FBDE24E7F9024C8126209B30CB34458A22C232C4996| |7396DE1FAC0BF076| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Can't look through the build until I get home, but I'll take your word for now that they're 35% Psi Defense in there. Now, can you add meaningful resist numbers across the board to prove your point?|
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
No time to do most of the reply, I'll need to do that later, but here was Zandram a few years back...
There might be a better way now, this is an old build. I threw a heal in energy drain, but this build was before that power could heal, so... it's kind of an afterthought. |
FYI, that build has six LotG recharges slotted.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Wrt lotgs, doh, sorry about that. That's what I get for trying to re-create something almost 2 years old in 15 minutes!
I'm not sure what you think my point is, I think I've been stating it clearly, but perhaps not so I'll try again:
1. Currently, stacking def is more desireable than stacking res. res stacking is relatively underperforming. I don't THINK you're contesting this point. I don't think many are... If you want to make very careful word choices about whether the bonuses are larger, or more common, etc. etc. so be it, but I'm more than content to say that stacking def is generally the better strategy.
2. The capacity to cap def is not necessarily good design. This is an opinion statement, I think that's been clear throughout my posts.
3. The capacity to cap res would be worse than the capacity to stack def, since it is less vulnerable to debuffs, and to tohitbuff.
4. There's not much room to increase available resistance (either the quality of the buffs, or the comonality of them) without running into the same capping issues that def has. There may be some tiny magical middle ground, but I doubt it. If the available sources are good enough for some sets, they're likely to be off for others. Either you're close enough to the asymptotic limit, or you're not. Either you're better than def, or you're not, and the case will be different for different sets.
If res is better than def, see 2.
If def is better than res, see 1
So, lets provide res something other than a shot at capping mitigation.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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I'm not going to dispute 1 or 2, though I'm ambivalent about def-capping rather than against it. |
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
Wrt lotgs, doh, sorry about that. That's what I get for trying to re-create something almost 2 years old in 15 minutes!
3. The capacity to cap res would be worse than the capacity to stack def, since it is less vulnerable to debuffs, and to tohitbuff. 4. There's not much room to increase available resistance (either the quality of the buffs, or the comonality of them) without running into the same capping issues that def has. There may be some tiny magical middle ground, but I doubt it. If the available sources are good enough for some sets, they're likely to be off for others. Either you're close enough to the asymptotic limit, or you're not. Either you're better than def, or you're not, and the case will be different for different sets. So, lets provide res something other than a shot at capping mitigation. |
Three and four need to be addressed, however.
When you talk about being able to cap resistances being undesirable, you're going to have to be more specific. Several melee sets can already cap one or two resistance types, though sometimes Tough is required. Clearly, the devs do not consider that overpowered. So how much capped resistance *is* overpowered? 3 damage types? 4? All of them?
This isn't a rhetorical question, because since you say in 4 that there's little room to improve resistance bonuses without running into "capping issues", you really need to define how many capped resistance types you consider to be too many. (And whether the devs agree is, of course, a whole 'nother question.)
Because as Rylas and I have pointed out, even if resist bonuses were improved, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for even resist sets to cap them all. As it is, simply saying that improving resist bonuses would be overpowered looks like hand-waving without specific examples of builds that can achieve capped levels of resistance to most or all damage types.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
2. I don't think it's necessarily bad design, considering there's plenty of DDR out there, and since to hit from higher conning foes can punch through this. |
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
2. The capacity to cap def is not necessarily good design. This is an opinion statement, I think that's been clear throughout my posts.
3. The capacity to cap res would be worse than the capacity to stack def, since it is less vulnerable to debuffs, and to tohitbuff. 4. There's not much room to increase available resistance (either the quality of the buffs, or the comonality of them) without running into the same capping issues that def has. There may be some tiny magical middle ground, but I doubt it. If the available sources are good enough for some sets, they're likely to be off for others. Either you're close enough to the asymptotic limit, or you're not. Either you're better than def, or you're not, and the case will be different for different sets. |
3. I've already pointed out that res is vulnerable to ALL debuffs. -Def, -rech, -regen, -end, -to hit. All those are more avoidable when you have defense.
4. There's plenty of room to improve resist bonuses. Even if you could cap them, you'd still have a lot of difficulty in getting much defense to put on top of it, without greatly compromising your offensive output. See my earlier post. Or my next post, wich I'll be placing a build in.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
I'm not going to dispute 1 or 2, though I'm ambivalent about def-capping rather than against it.
Three and four need to be addressed, however. When you talk about being able to cap resistances being undesirable, you're going to have to be more specific. Several melee sets can already cap one or two resistance types, though sometimes Tough is required. Clearly, the devs do not consider that overpowered. So how much capped resistance *is* overpowered? 3 damage types? 4? All of them? This isn't a rhetorical question, because since you say in 4 that there's little room to improve resistance bonuses without running into "capping issues", you really need to define how many capped resistance types you consider to be too many. (And whether the devs agree is, of course, a whole 'nother question.) Because as Rylas and I have pointed out, even if resist bonuses were improved, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for even resist sets to cap them all. As it is, simply saying that improving resist bonuses would be overpowered looks like hand-waving without specific examples of builds that can achieve capped levels of resistance to most or all damage types. |
Keep im mind my focus is on the desireability of using res bonuses.
With regards to 3: I'm not sure if you are concerned about that argument or not, I'd just like to re-iterate it here because it's important to my point. If it holds water, then it's important to the discussion. If not, well, we should establish that.
My third point was something like: Capped res would be more problematic than capped def because it would not be so subject to debuffs, and it would not be destroyed by high tohit buffs. There are not too many unresistable resistance debuffs around.
Moving on: You're right, I am saying there's not too much room to add resistance bonuses (probably a little, but not much) and I'm saying it without an exhaustive study. I can do some hand waving in a minute because it's fun
I'm making the following argument though: Res cannot be increased to the point where it is functionally competative for damage capping with def. Again, refer to point 2, which I understand you have mixed feelings about. Actually, res needs to be meaningfully lower than that, see point 3. This is basically what I was going on about in point 4.
I guess all I'm saying, and I don't feel that exhaustive builds are needed to say it is:
Res bonuses are poor in comparison to def bonuses, they should be improved
That def is broken, buffing res bonuses by giving them comparable mitigation to def would be broken. (potentially they'd be broken even with slightly less mitigation due to debuff/thb lets not break res too.)
Why not add something to them that won't break the situation?
Provided one subscribes to the assumptions (obviously not everyone will) the only problem I see is the suggestion that there's a perfect middle ground where res stacking will just start to be more usefull, than def stacking without causing the same scaling issues that def has.
This is probably where the exhaustive study and hand waving come in. I've been arguing that we're probably very close to that point for some specific builds even now, and all it takes is one.
Electric is the obvious first candidate, and while mids wouldn't let me import smersh's data chunk, here's the build I'm working towards myself:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Electric Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Armor -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(3), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(3), ImpArm-ResPsi(5), ImpArm-ResDam(50)
Level 1: Scorch -- GS-Acc/Dmg(A), GS-Dam/Rech(5), GS-Dam/End/Rech(7), GS-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(7), GS-%Dam(9), Mako-Acc/Dmg(46)
Level 2: Fire Sword -- GS-Acc/Dmg(A), GS-Dam/Rech(9), GS-Dam/End/Rech(11), GS-%Dam(11), GS-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(13), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Lightning Field -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Static Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(17), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(17), ImpArm-ResPsi(19)
Level 8: Grounded -- ResDam-I(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(50)
Level 10: Taunt -- Taunt-I(A)
Level 12: Energize -- Dct'dW-Heal(A), Dct'dW-Rchg(19), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(21), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(23), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 14: Conductive Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(34), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(36), ImpArm-ResPsi(36), ImpArm-ResDam(48)
Level 16: Swift -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(34), RgnTis-Regen+(34), Heal-I(46)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(33), EndMod-I(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(48)
Level 22: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), SW-ResDam/Re TP(25)
Level 24: Fly -- Winter-ResSlow(A), Winter-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng(25)
Level 26: Boxing -- Amaze-ToHitDeb%(A), Amaze-Stun(27), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun(27), Amaze-Stun/Rchg(31), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg(31), Amaze-Acc/Rchg(33)
Level 28: Tough -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(29), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(29), ImpArm-ResDam(31), ImpArm-ResPsi(48)
Level 30: Power Sink -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Fire Sword Circle -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Armgdn-Dmg(37), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(40), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 35: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Hectmb-Dmg(39), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(39), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Gloom -- Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Apoc-Dmg(42), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Combustion -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 47: Lightning Reflexes -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 49: Build Up -- AdjTgt-Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1403;700;1400;HEX;| |78DA9D934B73124110C767B38B0458028410206F0309106009B73C7C949AA44A030| |965624E2A8538495084D442347AF20378D28327CB839FC2F2EADB0F853DFD9FE4E2| |CD2DF8FFE6D1DDD33D8FEAD9862DC4EBEBC2B06FB51BBD5E7DBFD1792A5D4FB571D| |46A0AAF10621A23F50D79283B3DE96CB665B3EFB69AF51BEEB3AE9BD0B355D996D2| |D96A49F725DA91DB9D63E9CA4EDF396FD8B56EB74D26FD8EECF502E8B45B47C7FDA| |09EA066AB73E4E7DEDE89948FE39B27ADA673D33DEDCBFA5EF7B45DAF367A7D5A21| |4169E5E8FF354462D05F0C2CE150A32C8696803CC3CA1132A29C6544FC427F038F4| |8996C90665C5A00328CE12CA378281446FD7A0DF232E0350C2F3FBCFC30B7E15C7C| |C25EDF283513A999E6731EB25F30465E01678C1F64E7D1761E941046096194308A1| |27E929D177686B7C0AEE504F5A7C518E5E7437EC257E6995F641C80B127B08B3035| |C6D83650618C57811DC677F20AEADD0C2295CB482585545248A584DDF4D0E508C15| |C84D6099629BC3416D1D5440E10E21E708D932DA639C161B28B6ABBE8FB213534F7| |16986383D23BEEF9C82E86DA8C588C0325B6799B033413D733F1491E4A241906CD2| |4F579257739CCC41D608731B30D54B060956192D7A42E7E12C54FA1F829143F83AA| |4BD8833F21558DC1C54FE739E5389DC3AC5E77F62A074D5F0156189955C6D21AB0C| |E98A775E7B1EED03C02A5803490A4B00B3AEC429E7D169780452083E85920C768D2| |5664E1656597792857008A80832C4A8C282D9287B999C76D2DE09A1670690BB8ADB| |FA96C479FB9A3CF7C9C7C97F5492C7FE270E58F8C29EBE2BDD18F3E51F967A4665D| |BC2E61F048CEBA78D4035F985E1166FFF7FB6C9F87F3DD55EF7F5F494DBDE903D5B| |AAFE481EA3E54AD866A3D52D254DDC117FB3CE1D08ACA6B55C99A92752531CA4FBC| |5196DE00494089AD24A86444494849584954C984920F4A067F01D851E81C| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
[edit: something odd happened to my posting here, adding the missed bit:]
I don't actually see much in the way of scaling problems with this build, but you don't have to add much res to the thing to have to really start worrying.
Still you asked me a question about what I felt was broken, and where the line was, so I'll take my best shot at it, and give my best opinion:
I have no problem with any tank capping against it's area of strength, fire to fire, cold to cold.
If the area of strength was an uncommon type, add in even one more and you're probably ok, if you want to add in an additional exotic (toxic/psi) that's probably also not broken.
After that things start getting sketchy. I think adding s/l capping to a set that doesn't have that as it's strength should be on the bleeding edge of what's possible, and you should have to surrender a lot to get there, not to mention fight like hell for the inf/IOs to do it. I think that's about where we are.
I think capping your primary strength, adding caped, or nearly capped S/l, and having any other two common types above 80 especially if your build had any meaningful regen or healing, is going to cause too many of the same problems def has.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
So, to see if doubling res bonuses and making them apply to 2 damage types (a la Def Bonus changes). A lot of res bonuses cover 2 damage types anyway, so that wouldn't be too much of a change.
I've taken a Shield tank, who can easily hit the positional defense caps, and tried to work in as much res as possible. The main focus was for smash/lethal. It makes sense, right? It's the most common damage type in the game, and Tough will help get you there.
Some may be able to make improvements to res bonuses on the build, so I welcome any input for doing so. The current numbers I have on it are as such:
Positional Defenses: Capped
Smash Res: 57.1%
Lethal Res: 44.6%
Fire: 29%
Cold: 34%
Energy: 23.9%
Neg: 25.8%
Tox: 23.9%
To see what this would look like under the suggestions, we need to only look at the bonus for smash (since all the lethal bonuses were tied to a smash bonus), whic was 18.5%. The same goes for fire, since it was always tied to a cold. Cold bonus was 10%. There was only one negative bonus of 1.88%. All I need to do is add 18.5 to smashes numbers, and that gives me smash and lethal totals for the suggested treatment. Likewise for the rest.
That gives us:
Positional Defenses: Capped
Smash/Lethal Res: 75.6%
Fire/Cold: 44%
Energy/Neg: 27.7%
Tox: 23.9%
You may be thinking to yourself, "Wow! Great numbers!" But once you see the build, you'll understand that this in no way becomes a power house. Basically, all offensive slotting has become counter productive, essentially bringing the build into balance with a Granite tank (give or take a few points of survivability).
Have a look.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Not Viable: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(3), RedFtn-Def(3)
Level 1: Stone Fist -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(7), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(7), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), T'Death-Dam%(11)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(5), RedFtn-Def(11)
Level 4: True Grit -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), Aegis-ResDam(5), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(13), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(13), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(15), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(15), RedFtn-Def(17)
Level 10: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 12: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Stone Mallet -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(A), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(23), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB(36), ExStrk-Acc/KB(36), ExStrk-Dmg/KB(46), ExStrk-Dam%(48)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 18: Heavy Mallet -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(A), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(19), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB(19), ExStrk-Dmg/KB(21), ExStrk-Acc/KB(21), ExStrk-Dam%(23)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 22: Grant Cover -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Fault -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(A), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(25), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB(25), ExStrk-Dmg/KB(34), ExStrk-Acc/KB(37), ExStrk-Dam%(40)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(A), KinCrsh-Acc/KB(27), KinCrsh-Rchg/KB(27), ExStrk-Dmg/KB(37), ExStrk-Dam%(37), ExStrk-Acc/KB(43)
Level 28: Boxing -- GS-Acc/Dmg(A), GS-Dam/Rech(29), GS-Dam/End/Rech(29), GS-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(34), GS-Acc/End/Rech(36)
Level 30: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(31), Aegis-ResDam(31), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(31), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 32: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(33), RedFtn-Def(33)
Level 35: Super Jump -- Winter-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng(A), Winter-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng/EndRdx(40)
Level 38: Seismic Smash -- GS-Acc/Dmg(A), GS-Dam/Rech(39), GS-Dam/End/Rech(39), GS-Acc/End/Rech(39), GS-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(40)
Level 41: Ring of Fire -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(42), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(43), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(43)
Level 44: Melt Armor -- AnWeak-DefDeb(A), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(45), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg(45), AnWeak-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(45), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(46), AnWeak-%ToHit(46)
Level 47: Tremor -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(A), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(48), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB(48)
Level 49: Fire Ball -- AirB'st-Acc/Dmg(A), AirB'st-Dmg/Rchg(50), AirB'st-Dmg/EndRdx(50), AirB'st-Dmg/Rng(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
What's it all mean? It means except for a small handful of defensive sets, capping resist across the board is going to be difficult. Adding defense on top of that would be even more difficult. Though, to just say it doesn't mean much, so I'm going to go back and try to do the same thing with an elec/elec tank. Smersh's build is a good starting spot.
Currently, from this buld, it would seem doubling would still be difficult to get significance from. What we need is more available bonuses to obtain. But to avoid getting builds that make decent levels of defense and res too easy to get without some kind of balance towards offense, I think careful planning of added bonuses would be prudent. My suggestion is that res bonuses be like many defense bonuses. They should require 4-6 slots to obtain. With that kind of requirement, getting 2 bonuses from 1 power won't be possible. It puts the player into the position of making a choice (which at the moment, they don't have much of at all) of which way they want to go. Put these in sets without recharge bonuses, and you'll avoid other ways of breaking balance.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
This is where your opinion is breaking away from fact. You've made a build here that has considerable resist, so has Smersh. You even have some damage. And lots of recharge. I'll ignore the fact that this build would be hard to obtain for a great part of the player base, because it won't be needed to point out that this build is not over powered. No more than an elec tank that has managed to get 45% defense to S/L or melee.|
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
I think capping your primary strength, adding caped, or nearly capped S/l, and having any other two common types above 80 especially if your build had any meaningful regen or healing, is going to cause too many of the same problems def has.
|
Take Granite. It can achieve the numbers you have, and put on considerable defense to all but Psi. It has a heal. It has meaningful regen. It's the example of what you're talking about, and it's completely balanced because it makes a sacrifice. Your build sacrifices defense for capped resists. Everything is going to hit you, including debuffs of all kinds. And with end game content, there's plenty of that.
If you make the option to build for resists something that people have to choose between that or defense, then you're going to have balance.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
We both agree that this build is not overpowered... I believe I stated that. It's protection is considerable... but not more than that.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
This is where your opinion is breaking away from fact. You've made a build here that has considerable resist, so has Smersh. You even have some damage. And lots of recharge. I'll ignore the fact that this build would be hard to obtain for a great part of the player base, because it won't be needed to point out that this build is not over powered. No more than an elec tank that has managed to get 45% defense to S/L or melee.
|
Quote:
| Take Granite. It can achieve the numbers you have, and put on considerable defense to all but Psi. It has a heal. It has meaningful regen. It's the example of what you're talking about, and it's completely balanced because it makes a sacrifice. |
Quote:
| Your build sacrifices defense for capped resists. Everything is going to hit you, including debuffs of all kinds. And with end game content, there's plenty of that. |
Quote:
| If you make the option to build for resists something that people have to choose between that or defense, then you're going to have balance. |
None of these suggestions, all of which I agree with, contravene my basic concept, or my basic premise...
If you want to go further than these and also say that:
1. Capping def is a good game mechanic
2. Capping res will not be worse than capping def
and therefore
3. "Res bonuses should be made significantly more available, such that they are as easy to cap as def bonuses, or at least in the same ballpark"
Then so be it. However, as I've stated, I dissagree with both 1 and 2.
EDIT: suggesting that you think that res bonuses should be made "significantly more available" may be a bit of a straw man, for which I appologise. Significant is a grey area at best.
What I wll say is that while the build I posted isn't going to break things, I submit that it, or one like it, would break things if it got much more to work with. Even doubling the existing bonuses would put it over the top.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
I would argue that the design problem here is that that two damage types are so overwhelmingly prevalent and that many (otherwise useful) IO sets are available to softcap both of those types. One solution would be to rebalance the damage types a bit with new non-S/L mobs in each enemy group. Another option would be to rework the system so that attacks flagged as more than one type of damage use the higher of either: 1) the positional defense applicable; or 2) the lowest of the typed defenses applicable.
I'd prefer the first option, because it would bring more variety to the game. It also would be a bit more kind to those players who spent either a lot of time or a lot of inf (likely both) to softcap S/L.
Additionally, I would like to see more enhancement sets with more varied effects, including resistance bonsues for S/L, E/N, F/C, Tox and Psi. It doesn't matter so much whether it's better than or even equal to defense, just that the option is there for those who want to use it. Again, more variety is a good thing.
Be well, people of CoH.