Necro/Dark help please

Hi Guys, I dabble in MMs and I have a Necro Dark that I have got to level 22. At this point he seems to struggle a bit, but I just need more time to get going. Meanwhile I am looking for a build ideas.

Pets are a lot different than regular stuff, so I am not sure what to do. Any help woould be appreciated.

Seems to struggle a bit with...What, to be particular?

You'll soon (if not already) hit your second lieutenant minion (which will round off your damage) and the Lich will add some much-appreciated control shortly down the line.

Post the build you're using?

My first toon I've build in this game was a Necro/Dark MM. I've never really had trouble with it, even solo. Your zombies add -to hit, combine that with Darkest Night, Twilight Grasp, and the defense of Shadow Fall, you should be able to tank effectively for almost any enemy while your pets devour them.

Dark Miasma is about controlling our enemies. My first piece of advice is to take Challenge from the Presence pool. First have your pets in defensive mode. This will divide the damage you take among yourself and your pets. Your pets will attack anyone that attacks you or that you target with one of your powers in this mode. Keep in mind that Zombies are (sadly) not the strongest of pets. Your Zombie Hordes can die easily if left unattended, pulling aggro off them when one is in trouble with Challenge keeps them alive. It's also a great tool to keep enemies in your Tar Patches. It's cheap to use and recharges quickly.

If you utilize all of your control powers effectively, battles are easy. First assert control, then send your army of darkness to destroy. Minimize the biggest threat while picking off the rest.

Sample Mob: 1 Boss, 1 Lieutenant, 1 Minion

Pets in defense mode. Use Darkest Night on the Boss, Tar Patch, taunt the boss, Petrifying Gaze the Lieutenant, have the pets attack the Minion. When the Minion dies, have them go after the Lieutenant, then the boss, healing when necessary.

The trick is to keep switching the pets back to Defensive mode right after setting them to Aggressive. You'll constantly be switching them from Aggressive to Defensive as enemies die.

Of course there are some specific foes you'll want to deal with first. Longbow Flamethrowers, Tsoo Sorcerers, and CoT Ruin Mages come to mind. Anything that can target all of your pets, you'll want to hold or taunt away from your pets.

At some point you'll want Life Drain if you do not already have it has an extra heal when you're taunting. It will also help when Twilight Grasp is still recharging.

I'm sure it goes without saying that you'll want the Leadership pool. I strongly recommend Tactics to help Twilight Grasp and Petrifying Gaze to hit.

Soul Mastery synergies very well with Dark Miasma and your Lich's immobilize/hold powers, as well as your holds, AND your Dark Servant's hold. You can freeze just about anything in it's place with all the hold powers this set has. I've had battles with Elite Bosses, even AV's, where they've spend AT LEAST half the battle frozen or floating in mid-air while you beat on them because of all the stacking holds.

This set is more about micro-managing battles, to make battle seemingly easy.

Powers to take:

Zombie Horde, Enchant Undead, Life Drain, Grave Knight, Lich, Dark Empowerment.
Twilight Grasp, Tar Patch, Darkest Night, Shadow Fall, Petrifying Gaze, Dark Servant

Challenge
Hover, Fly
Assault, Tactics
(and the obvious Fitness powers)

I'll post my build when I have access to Mid's later.

I will also throw in a vote for Howling Twilight. I thought the person that recommended it to me was mad, because it can't rez your pets... but... it's just that good.

It winds up doing a mag 2 stun (that seems to almost always hit), a mag 3 fear, reduces recharge time and run/fly/jump speeds. The side effect is that it will rez everyone in the radius should you be in a group. And it recharges fast (base 180s).

Drop tar patch, howling twilight, darkest night, and a fearsome stare... and bury the bodies... And I haven't even got Petrifying gaze and Dark servent yet...

I would recommend Black Hole as a skippable. Too much chaos for my taste.

/Dark is just great... Life Drain is a wise precaution also...

Right now pre-19, before the fitness pool goes inherent, I just do not have the room to take Soul Extraction. Maybe I'll look into it again, but the things for me are, 1) the IO sets that can put in it are Pet Damage or To Hit Debuff sets, which not terrific choices. 2) it's base recharge is 10 minutes. With normal lvl 50 SO's you cut that time half, but for 13 endurnace for that one pet is steep. To me it's a waste of slots to put in a power that depends on having a dead pet.

If I could put Expedient Reinforcement in it, or Basilisk's Gaze since the Ghost does have a hold power I personally might take it. I don't know if the OP is using IO's so for him I just feel there's better things to take. I'd take Manuevers over Soul Extraction at this point. For my build I am nearly endurance heavy as it is spamming holds and Twilight Grasp with 3 toggles running, adding Manuevers might kill my endurance. Imagine a non-IO'ed build.

If the OP is just fightning normal enemies, he really doesn't need Maneuvers, IMO.

I take Life Drain because I'm fighting AV's. Having that extra heal power is big in those kind of fights. When you're soloing against tougher Bosses or EB's, you need that extra healing when you're taunting them.

Or if Twilight Grasp misses.

The big deal is to have Howling Twilight and Fearsome Stare in tandem to alternate between groups by level 22. Level 24 gives you the second grave knight. It's a huge boost to your damage. Level 26 is your Lich which greatly adds to your debuff and control.

Soul Extraction is nice to have. I never seem to lack for a dead pet when it recharges. The ranged attacks from a soul extraction on your lowest tier guy is a nice complement to the other melee attacks. Hasten isn't bad at all for your recharge of the Dark debuffs.

The tar patch, fearsome stare/howling twilight combo is tough to beat. You will get a good feel for its utility quickly.

Thanks for the advice. MMs are quite a different kettle of fish.

What is the duration for a Soul Extracted pet once it's summoned? If you're saying that one slotting it the Call to Arms defense aura IO is worth it, I may just consider it. I have enough global recharge to get it at just under 7 minutes for Soul Extraction to recharge.

(I've respec'd my Necromancy MM like 5 or 6 times, what's one more? )

This is one case (of several) where chasing after tiny Set IO bonuses has basically gimped a build.

Collectively, Necromancy's pets do a massive -ToHit Debuff, and that's actually more valuable than any +1.88% Fire Defense a Set IO bonus might give you. On a Mastermind, virtually all of the +Damage Set IO bonuses are a complete and utter waste, because they don't transfer to your pets. Same with the global Accuracy buff. Furthermore, -ToHit Debuff protects your pets--the +Defense from Set IO bonuses does not. My Lich is slotted 1 Acc / 3 Damage / 2 -ToHit Debuff, because every power it has except Petrifying Gaze does damage (usually AoE) and -ToHit Debuff. Three of those are wide AOE cones, meaning its -ToHit Debuff spreads out over several foes. For example, my Lich's Torrent does -13.66% ToHit Debuff over 10 foes, up from -9.38%, a difference of -4.28%. Same with Tenebrous Tentacles. Its Fearsome Gaze is at -27.32%, up from -18.75%, a difference of -8.57% ToHit Debuff over ten foes. You might as well call that a +Defense Buff for the entire Team and all of your pets, because the upshot is the same.

Challenge? I understand the tactic, but visual aggro is enough. And furthermore, I find that setting the Grave Knights in Aggressive while leaving the rest in Defensive gives my entire horde an opportunity to hit an entire spawn with their AOEs.

I certainly wouldn't skip Soul Extraction on Necro / Dark for any reason whatsoever. Another pet, another source of damage and -ToHit Debuff, and another target for your foes.

And you skipped Howling Twilight? It's a very solid solo power, and it's a >GREAT< team power. It may very well be the best ally-rez in the game, and it's quite probably the best AOE hard mezz available to Masterminds, too. Slot for Stun Duration and Recharge.

The Pet Set IOs are... meh. On Necro, you can do better. Since Necro pets don't use much Endurance, the EndRed on those is next to worthless. No +Chance for Build-Up? Have you seen the damage a Grave Knight can do with a critted Headsplitter that's under the effect of its own self-generated Build-Up?

And Basilisk's Gaze in Dark Servant? It has exactly one single-target Hold power, while it has four -ToHit Debuff powers (three of them Area of Effect -ToHit Debuff). I have mine slotted 1 Acc / 3 ToHit Debuff / 2 Recharge. That sets the -ToHit Debuff on Chill of the Night at -47.23% (alone, from -30%; a difference of -17.23%). Its Darkest Night is -23.62% (from -15%--a difference of -8.62%). Its Tenebrous Tentacles are -7.87%, up -2.87%. As before, you might as well call that a +Defense Buff, not just to you, but to your entire team and all of your pets. You get a lot more bang for your buck with extra -ToHit Debuff than an extra 14.38 second hold duration on a single Mag3 target (lieutenant or lower).

The 3.75% Defense of Shadow Fall isn't worth slotting. Fully slotted, you're talking 5.85%--a gain of 2.85% Defense. Not exactly a big deal, especially if your pets are crushing your foes' ToHit to 5% anyway.

I'd seriously reconsider that build.

Monstrofo, the pet summoned by Soul Extraction self-destructs after five minutes. Even with just very basic Recharge slotting (and without Hasten), it should be up often enough. Things are best if your pets aren't dying every five minutes anyway.

Playing my MM, I have never felt gimped.... Ever.

I stand by slotting for Ranged Defense, especially Lockdown and even Baslisk's Gaze. I thought that in Dark Servant was ingenious actually. The Lockdown and Gravitational Anchor proc, feed my holds and add to pets holds. I stack can insane number of hold on one or several targets.

BTW, lol Fire Defense? C'mon. Yes. Some set bonuses to not translate to my pets. I didn't take those sets for those speicfic bonuses. Honestly I have like 3-4 bad set bonuses, but even then it's a bonus, any bonus is good.

I do like that usage to to hit debuff enhancements in Lich though, I look into that.

I will always defend accuracy/to hit bonuses and taking Tactics. Adding them allows me to maximize my heals and rarely miss. Accuracy is not a waste. I like my holds to hit every time too.

I don't have the Soulbound Alleigence: Chance to Build Up proc. I had to buy so many thing for this as it was. Going Rogue has cut into my farming time, I'll get it eventually. But I do like the mez resistance the Sovereign Right grants. I'm squishy, it helps reduce the duration.

I can't get over the endurance cost of Howling Twilight, even if you cut in half with enhancements.

If I can get Soul Extraction near 5 minutes to recharge without sacrificing to much of what I have, I'll grab it for i19 when the Fitness pool goes inherent and frees up more powers to take.

You can defend your use of Accuracy / ToHit bonuses all you want, but you're fighting against a ToHit equation that renders that defense completely illogical.

There's an upper ToHit cap of 95%, and also an upper Accuracy cap of 95%.

The equation looks like this: [Base ToHit + ToHit Buff - ToHit Debuff - (Foe Defense - Foe Defense Debuff) ] * Accuracy Modifier. The result inside the brackets is capped at 95%, and the end result is similarly capped at 95%.

With only two Accuracy SOs (or an Accuracy Modifier of 1.67), against +2s, you'll be at 93.33% ToHit.

In other words, as long as you've got at least 1.67 Accuracy or higher in a basic 1.0 Accuracy Modifier power, all that extra Accuracy is wasted on +1s and lower, and virtually wasted on +2s. With two common Accuracy IOs or the equivalent (1.70+ Accuracy Modifier), you'd be at the ToHit Cap on +2s, too.

Having Tactics renders all the +Accuracy Bonuses you have completely useless. I have Tactics, too--it's not a bad idea, because it relieves the amount of Accuracy you need to have on your pets (2 for the Zombies, 1 for the Grave Knights, Lich, Soul Extraction, and Dark Servant) to be capped or close to capped (within 2%) on +2s and higher. But it really does render all that +Accuracy from Set IO Bonuses completely moot. Against +2s and lower, you're probably at the ToHit Cap anyway, and with Tactics (especially slotted), that's certainly the case.

The problem with your Hold strategy is that you cannot control what Dark Servant decides to Hold. Normally, I'd agree that single-stacking Holds is a great idea. However, Dark Servant's -ToHit Debuff is so massive--and it has so many powers with -ToHit Debuff--that it can virtually crush your foes to their 5% ToHit Floor almost by itself, slotted correctly. Since you can't control what it decides to use Petrifying Gaze on--it might be a minion, it might be the unholdable Elite Boss or Night Widow--it's just not a good hold-stacking strategy. Better to use your own Petrifying Gaze & Soul Storm, because you can control what they hit (though I skipped both--against my squad, even +2 bosses don't live long enough for Hold-stacking to be relevant).

Frankly, you may not feel "gimped", but my Necromancy / Dark Mastermind is an absolute monster against +2s, using just SOs, common IOs, and well-chosen (and admittedly expensive) Uniques / Procs. The Grave Knights are like a wall of blades, and nothing can touch her or her pets due to the massive amounts of -ToHit Debuff flying around.

Seriously, you're letting Mids build for you, rather than taking a close look at the game mechanics and playing to your own strengths, building Set IOs around those strengths. Instead, you've traded -17% ToHit Debuff that affects your whole team and all of your pets for 2% Defense that affects only you.

You said "every bonus is good". That's the problem with a lot of players' thinking lately. Every bonus is NOT necessarily good. If you're trading off a power's basic function, or some really strong secondary effect to chase a 1% Accuracy Bonus, that's not a wise trade-off. If you're skipping a great power, such as Howling Twilight, to take a Power Pool Power of dubious necessity and value, such as Challenge, to hang a 2.75% Terrorize Resist on it, you haven't done yourself any favors.

Aack! Back the truck up. You laid out your reasons for skipping Howling Twilight, but seriously why no fearsome stare, which IS the best dark miasma power in the set?

Also, nearly every power that the dark servant uses incorporates a secondary effect of tohit debuff. Are you familiar with "Chill of the Night"? That little aura around your dark buddy will save your bacon. It's super team-friendly to slot for tohit debuff.

I was under the impression that To Hit Debuffs do not translate the same way as defense.
For example: A 10% enemy to hit debuff isn't the same as me having a 10% defense buff.
Correct me if I wrong.

I'm not saying that giving a enemy a -17 to hit debuff isn't significant, I'm just concerned about the equivalency to defense. I just figured 25% ranged defense would just synergize with the debuffs I have now. I also figure there was some kind of cap on debuffs, or a percentage where it did not do anymore then that point.

Yes, I have used Howling Twilight. I sampled everything from /Dark, except Black Hole.

Howlight Twilight, no matter how I slotted it, it killed my endurance. I had to pop a blue everytime. I had to weigh using it as a mez and saving it to revive a teammate. Soloing, I could use it at will. On a team I have to save it, giving me one less power in that situation.
I'll probably take it eventually, if only as a rez power. I'm not sure if I can spare the slots from anything. If it cost less endurance, this would be a no brainer for me. I don't like cost or the recharge. I really believe its a passible power. Never missed not having after respecing.

I'll definately take Soul Extraction now for the Call to Arms: Defense Aura, I'll just have to figure out how extra slots I could spare and I did say I would look into adding to debuffs to Lich.....OK NOW?

I totally forgot there's a difference with accuracy and to hit buffs. The language just isn;t clear enough. Bad call on my part. I'll do the math for that To Hit/Accuracy formula you gave me. I guess I am most likely capped for Twilight Grasp's for umm...accuracy? without Tactics. (I'm gonna have to look that up, crap...) So ok. I'll check the math for Petriying Gaze and Soul Storm.... or you know what better yet I'll just run some missions not using Tactics to see if there's a difference.

But.... I'm keeping my holds. I freeze AV's dammit. ;P

You may now return to banging your head against the table.

Just out curiosity, since I've made AV hunting a recent hobby with my MM, so I checked rechecked PToD. I know my mez's are not effective when the triangles are up. But I was curious how much Debuff Resistance they have.

60-87% ToHit Debuff Resistance. Always active. (via ParagonWiki.)

Whoa.

Maybe your right. I might to need to inflict as much -to hit I can...

The "Pink Triangles of Death" are Mag100 protection.

A single player cannot get around them. When they're down, an AV (or an Elite Boss) simply has boss-level (Mag3) mezz protection. In other words, two Holds or a single stacked Hold will affect them when the PTODs drop.

I'm not saying you should drop those yourself. It's a viable strategy against bosses, non-resistant EBs, and AVs when the PTODs are down (which isn't nearly enough). But you can't direct your Lich's or your Dark Servant's Petrifying Gaze. If all you have left is the AV, it'll target those, sure, but even with them and your own Petrifying Gaze and Soul Storm, you're talking Mag12 total. Even if you could somehow pull off a Power Boost (or use Megalomaniac), you're talking Mag18. You'll be Mag82 short. When the PTODs drop, your own Holds will do the trick, even just Petrifying Gaze cycled if you've got enough Hold Duration (maxed) and Recharge (maxed) on it.

Wyatt_Earp is right that -ToHit Debuff is affected by the Purple Patch (so, for example, it's at 80% effectiveness against +2s). Also, several of these powers (not Chill of the Night or Darkest Night, but Fearsome Gaze, Tenebrous Tentacles, and Torrent) require ToHit checks themselves, so it's not a sure thing, by any means.

...I also just noticed you don't have Fearsome Stare... Your choice, but it comes with an enormous cone (70', 30 degree), an -11.25% ToHit Debuff (slottable to -17.55, a difference of -6.4%), and it can hit 16 foes (an entire spawn). Furthermore, the Fear effect--even if you don't slot for Fear Duration--puts minions and lieutenants out of commission unless and until they take damage.

As much as it galls me to say this sometimes, in matters regarding math, number theory, and game mechanics, Arcanaville is never wrong (seriously, it's irritating. How can a human being be so right so much?). Check out her Guide to Defense. It includes everything you want to know about the Accuracy equation, and then some.

No I understood the mez protection part, I'm not dropping the holds from my build. I just saw that the debuff resistances that are alarmingly high.

I played around with it Mid's again. I'm cutting a few slots from Tactics for Soul Extraction to get it to recharge in just under 5 minutes. Mission accomplished. I'll frankenslot to hit/end redux IO enhancements in Tactics, and buy Hami-o's for it later.

I'll frankenslot Grave Knight to accommodate for the Soulbound proc, whenever I get that. (<--Probably this first.)

I'm looking over Arcanaville's thread now. Thank you for that.