Why Huntsman and not Crab for AoE?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-08-29 16:55 in Soldiers of Arachnos
I am not arguing. I like my huntsman AOE better than my crabs. Granted the crab has more, however my Huntsman's recharge is so good I don't have to worry about having a lot of AOE powers because the ones I got are always ready to roll.
A crab is great if you want to play a toon that ready to go right out of the box. A crab likes a dell or HP-everything is ready to go and you don't have to do much to it.
Playing a Huntsman is like building your own pc. You get parts from different companies and you need to have a little know how to get it running and maximize its potential. Each person that a huntsman seems to have their own style. At least from what I read in the forum. Some have cloaking device, and placate or use the melee attacks.
The AOE capabilities are pretty even when you factor everything in. It depends on how much work you want to put into it.
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This is not a bad build by any means, and I will give some feedback on it since you posted it. |
Originally Posted by Brakner
I prefer Electrifying Fences over School of Sharks , I couldn't handle the almost 3 second activation time, it drove me nuts. EF has just over a 1 second activation and allows me to move onto my other 3 AOE's. After 4 or 5 respec's this is what I use now...
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First of all Bile Spray would be difficult for me to give up. The toxic attack synergizes too well with venom grenade. Therefore, I am pretty much stuck with School of Sharks. I can definitely understand your reasoning here though.
I do like the chance for build up in your leadership. I think that is pretty well placed. I'll have to think about trying to fit that in somehow. Do you notice it go off pretty often?
I do not like frag grenade because of the knockback effect. Do you find yourself having frag grenade up often when enemies are not under the effect of elec fences?
I see you do not have your final pet. I find these are great for off cooldown damage, such as two aoe and two single target attacks. Number wise, they are comparable to your main character's powers. They also have some nice status effects too. Unfortunately another patron attack would be necessary, and I don't see how all that could fit in your build.
I don't find it necessary to have all the enhancements in Health, to be honest. I only have numina's regen/recovery and our regen rates on both are pretty similar. I rarely have any problems with end recovery myself.
Anyway a pretty good build, I'll have to put some thought into mu mastery and frag grenade.
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And I too have to put some thought into Bile Spray, didn't realize it was a -40% for toxin with Venom Grenades |
Originally Posted by Smoothjedi
This is not a bad build by any means, and I will give some feedback on it since you posted it.
First of all Bile Spray would be difficult for me to give up. The toxic attack synergizes too well with venom grenade. Therefore, I am pretty much stuck with School of Sharks. I can definitely understand your reasoning here though. I do like the chance for build up in your leadership. I think that is pretty well placed. I'll have to think about trying to fit that in somehow. Do you notice it go off pretty often? I do not like frag grenade because of the knockback effect. Do you find yourself having frag grenade up often when enemies are not under the effect of elec fences? I see you do not have your final pet. I find these are great for off cooldown damage, such as two aoe and two single target attacks. Number wise, they are comparable to your main character's powers. They also have some nice status effects too. Unfortunately another patron attack would be necessary, and I don't see how all that could fit in your build. I don't find it necessary to have all the enhancements in Health, to be honest. I only have numina's regen/recovery and our regen rates on both are pretty similar. I rarely have any problems with end recovery myself. Anyway a pretty good build, I'll have to put some thought into mu mastery and frag grenade. |
Ouch!Yes the Fences cancels out the KB from Frag Grenade, I tried Web Envelope and it didnt, so switched back to EF.
The Chance for Buildup goes off quite a lot , I see the little pink status icon at least 2 or 3 times a fight.
Also Souldbound in the spiderlings goes off like crazy too, I have actually seem one of them stack it once or twice.
With 143% +recharge I got the final pet down to 47 Second downtime and the little Spiderlings perma , I feel like an MM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Crab Spiders can get all the same powers as a Huntsman plus have additional options. It's impossible for the Crab Spider to be worse, numerically.
Seems like a lot of huntsman take the non mace based bane powers to give themselves a unique boost.
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
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Yeah, a Huntsman is not as much a Wolf Spider that never branched as a Bane that uses the machine gun. |
Originally Posted by Rooks
Seems like a lot of huntsman take the non mace based bane powers to give themselves a unique boost.
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That's an oversimplification, though. The Power Pools can't ever really add as much as an ATs Primary or Secondary, but they do add options that the AT doesn't have. Or in the case of Leadership, double up on those capabilities to emphasise their role of support.
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My first Crab build is all ranged and I even took Burst from Soldier to have another decent 8s range attack. I also had Spiderlings to help out my ST damage when I solo. After a while, I find it a bit boring...|
Originally Posted by Ledneh_
Here's a related question about Crab AoE builds, then. Do they, as a rule, take their melee AoE skills, or do they stick to ranged (and therefore pick up wolf primary powers, resulting in gundraw)?
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Then I respec into a semi-Crab build because honestly, Crab CAN melee. Crab has awesome defense, resistance and +HP. If anything, Crab is the most "sturdiest" of all 4 branches especially with set bonuses. The problem with Crab melee is that your ST damage isn't excellent. It's good enough but not excellent. I use that Arm Slash because I just love the animation and sound of it and if I can line up right, I can hit at least 2 targets. I took Slice even though Channelgun is a better attack and Longfang is a must for me. Slice also forces me to melee because I only have one reliable ST range. lol
I also love Frenzy. It sounds COOl but the graphic is a bit lacking IMO.
Basically, I start by shooting Venom, run in to line up Arm and then Frenzy. It's more fun for me. And even if this semi-melee build is a bit less "efficient", I think the fun factor is better.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Yeah. Basically, those Huntsman builds are hybrid between Huntsman/Bane or /Crab. |
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Correct me if I'm wrong but Crab Spiders can get all the same powers as a Huntsman plus have additional options. It's impossible for the Crab Spider to be worse, numerically.
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I think Huntsman/Crab can be just as good because Crab has better survival.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I am with PanzerWaffles (heheh) on this one.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Access to different powers is one potential reason. Huntsmen will have access to Build-Up, Surveillance and Cloaking Device from the Bane pools. Number one reason though? No crab arms. Some folks like 'em, some don't. I fall into the latter camp myself.
ETA: Huntsman will generally have significantly better single-target damage as well. |
I have two builds on my Spider.... Main one is my Crab build. Second is the Bane. I have dabbled with both and flip according to team I have. Sometimes the Bane is more useful because of his Execution skull crushing attacks and focus dps. Sometimes my team could use more aoe...so I go to the Crab for all my aoe he has loaded up.
By the way if you have Crab build on any of your 2 builds you can switch to...you will always have Spider Legs.... only thing that annoys me....
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I don't know about all that. My crab is squishy compared to my huntsman in the terms of survivability. Maybe its the way I built him.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yeah. Basically, those Huntsman builds are hybrid between Huntsman/Bane or /Crab.
I think Huntsman/Crab can be just as good because Crab has better survival. |
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The primary difference between a bane and crab hunstman is that you trade cloaking device, surveillance and build up for fortification, serum and aim. |
Originally Posted by dmcfarland907
I don't know about all that. My crab is squishy compared to my huntsman in the terms of survivability. Maybe its the way I built him.
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So you basically exchange extra def (5.5% fully slotted), single target debuff and a build up with lot of redraw (swapping between mace and gun = annoying) for full tank status protection (except KB), decent resists (great resists to exotic damage actually), a heal/hp boost and an aim with slightly less redraw (you have to pull out the gun but don't have to pull out the mace - so it is more easily used in mid combat).
I would say which one you want to do depends on personal preference. The bane build will be capable of stealthing, do slightly more single target damage with the debuff of surveillance stacked on venom grenade and the extra boost from build up, if you can stand the redraw. The bane will also be easier to softcap or get close to softcap, as 5.5% def to all from cloaking device is really nice. The crab will be a little tougher, if not as easy to softcap, and will have a nice tool in the heal.
On my huntsman I went with a mace bane as an alt build - they make awesome hard target killers and are great for soloing story arcs, where the huntsman is the ultimate group character and a decent farmer. I levelled up a second soldier that I made into a crab so my huntsman build wouldn't have to put up with the crab legs.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I have a huntsman/bane build and its quite easy to explain. A good arbiter uses the right tool for the right job, and I do great on most eb's with the huntsman, and some other require a little blunt force trauma. I am however in trouble when it comes to eb's like statesman that can do unstop. I need some help on those because they can outlast me due to the nature of their powers.
I originally chose to dual a bane/huntsman because like many before me the backpack just did not work with the concept I had for my character (Nemesis Initiative .. lvl 50). I looked for a good niche for him and found the bane/huntsman worked for him. Bane was set a stalk and smack solo type choosing the mace for patron pool mostly for the web grenade to lock down a runner and prevent friends from arriving minus the chex mix.
The huntsman build a gave considerable thought as I wanted to look for something a little more then a build trying to push the damage envelope to get close to the crab. What I decided instead was to instead go for the debuff route. With the ledership skills I can boost my teammates but taking the soul mastery and slotting my chars I found that I became extremely team friendly by having darkest night and soul tentacles slotted to hinder and through in a poison grenade to do a extra little bit of -res. Through a Surveillance on a boss or AV for good measure. It all adds up.
You can still solo if you wanted to but the larger the team the more this build will shine. The best measuring stick for this was at the end of the first mish i did with the team I told that my joining took the edge off the enemies making them easier to deal with.
On red ride there has always been a bit of a vacuum when it comes to controlling powers. We have Dominators but the draw of doing damage commonly draws your focus from controlling. I little extra debuff here with a web grenade to keep your opponents sightseeing to a minimum and is a entertaining change to max blasts. It is surprising how much of a change you can make in a mission.
I went Huntsman/Bane mainly for Build Up and the more durable pets.
I worked in a nice AoE attack chain, 45% ranged defense, perma-hasten and perma-pets.
I've farmed with it some, it's pretty fun.
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The one thing that I really like about the Soldiers over the Widows, is that you actually have three distict offensive sets you can use, granted both banes and crabs can use rifles.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yeah. Basically, those Huntsman builds are hybrid between Huntsman/Bane or /Crab.
I think Huntsman/Crab can be just as good because Crab has better survival. |
With regards to Huntsmen, more so than I can with either AR or DP, I get more of a soldier or commando feel. In terms of crab vs. huntsman, the real edge your standard huntsman build ( which borrows from the bane sets), is better ST damage, and better melee damage, the two primary weaknesses of the crab.
the devs should just make a toggle that constantly makes the crab arms shoot, and isntead of a like a small aoe dot like fire armor/elec armor, it should give bigger hits but with fewer targets
With enough recharge a huntsman doesnt need more than Venom grenade, heavy burst and Frag grenade. WAWG takes the knockback out of frag and also slows recharge and movement of foes.
I think my huntsmann is on about 80% global recharge without hasten.
My main gripe with running only gun AoE as opposed to gun/crab AoE is that WAWG and Frag only have a 10 ft. radius which is actually pretty small.
My leading attacks usually consist of Venom, Heavy Burst, Suppression. Venom has a nice 20' radius, Heavy's got a moderate cone range/width, Supression has a ridiculous 60degree cone with the same range as Heavy so I'm hitting a lot more enemies with suppresion than I would be with Frag Grenade. I
Also, I'm running double assault, double maneuvers, and TT:Leadership so I'm also granting boosts to my team like a Hunstman does. In addition to the team, I can pull out the 3 Spiderlings accessible to crab, the 2 Disruptors and also have them affected by my leadership buffs.
Without even getting in to the survivability provided by Fortification/Serum, I would say that overall you get more AoE effectiveness from crab.
Really, I think the main reason people go Huntsman instead of Crab would be 'theme' or dislike of spider backpack.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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I have a love/hate relationship with suppression - I love the huge cone and the energy damage, I hate the ugly 3 second animation time. |
Originally Posted by blueruckus
My main gripe with running only gun AoE as opposed to gun/crab AoE is that WAWG and Frag only have a 10 ft. radius which is actually pretty small.
My leading attacks usually consist of Venom, Heavy Burst, Suppression. Venom has a nice 20' radius, Heavy's got a moderate cone range/width, Supression has a ridiculous 60degree cone with the same range as Heavy so I'm hitting a lot more enemies with suppresion than I would be with Frag Grenade. I Also, I'm running double assault, double maneuvers, and TT:Leadership so I'm also granting boosts to my team like a Hunstman does. In addition to the team, I can pull out the 3 Spiderlings accessible to crab, the 2 Disruptors and also have them affected by my leadership buffs. Without even getting in to the survivability provided by Fortification/Serum, I would say that overall you get more AoE effectiveness from crab. Really, I think the main reason people go Huntsman instead of Crab would be 'theme' or dislike of spider backpack. |
My huntsman is a bane and I went with that for the following reasons:
1) Cloaking device - +5.8% def to all positions plus stealth
2) no back pack.
3) surveillance - 20% resistance debuff to a single target
4) My main AE's after venom grenade are arctic breath and bile spray from the patron pools, with heavy burst as a finisher.
With a high recharge (80% global I think) and good slotting in my 3 main AE's I only rarely need a fourth and heavy burst is fast and does good damage, even if it isn't as big a cone as suppression. Arctic Breath and bile spray do roughly the same damage as suppression and have fairly large cones (30 degrees by 60 feet long) - arctic breath adds a 15% resistance debuff on top of venom grenades debuff and bile spray is toxic and so it benefits from the full 40% resistance debuff to toxic in VG - for a total boost of 55% on top of all damage buffs. Suppression and frag grenade would be a waste of power picks and slots as VG + AB +BS generally melts most minions and even some LT's, leaving me to clean up the remainder with heavy burst and the single target attacks.
You could do the same thing with a crab build the only real difference is that you would get fortification, serum and aim in place of cloaking device, surveillance and build up. So you would get a heal and pretty good resistances in place of extra debuffing and better def (aim vs buildup is a wash I think - build up gives you a better damage bonus but you lose a couple seconds to redraw). It really depends on what you want - I choose to roll a second soldier who went down the crab path so I could have my huntsman use his alt build as a mace bane for soloing. Also, my huntsman concept did NOT include the backpack, which was a huge deciding factor as well.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I hear you. My problem with relying on arctic and bile would be that I enjoy running a lot of TFs. With my current setup I have double assault and my bread and butter AoEs starting at Posi.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
I love huntsman because there are so many ways you can build them. Some people have some mace stuff in their builds. Other people have cloaking device which I might consider once I19 goes live and fitness becomes inherent or I might take super leap instead of ss. I don't know yet. Huntsman have choices and my recharge with hasten is about 137% so my powers are always popping back up.
And since you dont play my toon, you really cant tell me how I utilize my attack chain because I assure you i can push each and every button in the chain.
Let me break it down for you further. I have no doubt that when you use your attack chain, you hit every button. The question is how many powers do you have to pick from at each time you push said button? Optimally, you would have 1. If you have 3 powers available each time the opportunity to use one comes up, then there are two powers you are wasting every cycle.
This is the crux of my argument. Your attack chain sounds inefficient. Ideally to optimize your attack chain you pare it down so you only have one available each cycle. As your global recharge increases, you might be able to take another attack out of the chain and use the slot for something else, preferably a passive power or pet.
I am not trying to say your build sucks, especially when I haven't seen it. I am certainly not trying to say it would not be fun to play, whatever it is. All I am arguing is that it is not as efficient as it could be.