Is Martial Arts messed up?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-08-26 11:55 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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What do you think of MA Stalker? Do you think it's very comparable to EM since both sets have no AoE at all? If it's comparable to EM, so MA is the new favorite pvp build? I can't stand playing a set with zero aoe but it is just my personal preference because I team a lot. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm not sure we've seen optimized pylon runs with the new MA yet. But even if MA loses to DM on single target at the highest levels of recharge, its performance as you're leveling up in the first place is almost certainly higher than DM's is now due to the higher number of high DPA attacks that can be assembled into an attack chain.
Nobody (well, almost nobody) wanted or needed MA to be "the be-all" especially in AoE, but its certainly not "weaksauce" either. In fact, I'm always suspicious of anyone that doesn't seem to acknowledge there exists anything between weaksauce and be-all. I actually strongly recommended that a particular change in beta that would have made it even stronger in top-end ST damage than it is now be backed off a little because I was worried it would have made MA overpowered and a target for a post-live nerf. Just because I worked for MA buffs for over four years, doesn't mean I wanted it to be stupidly overbuffed. |
I tried to plan a MA Stalker build and I just think there are so many overlapping ST attacks.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I think MA is likely to outperform EM till at least 26. After that point, I still need to think about and probably play test whether CK and the improved EC provide a better overall value to ET and TF (especially since both CK and EC provide full crits).
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
What do you think of MA Stalker? Do you think it's very comparable to EM since both sets have no AoE at all? If it's comparable to EM, so MA is the new favorite pvp build? I can't stand playing a set with zero aoe but it is just my personal preference because I team a lot.
I tried to plan a MA Stalker build and I just think there are so many overlapping ST attacks. |
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Well, the DPA numbers for the attacks in EM and MA for Stalkers, assuming NO criticals, are:
Energy Melee:
ET: 1.57 (no critical)
TF: 1.047 (reduced critical, only scale 1 of 3.56 can critical)
BS: 0.956
EP: 0.947
Martial Arts:
SK: 1.25
CAK: 1.147
CK: 1.061
CS: 1.061
EC: 1.053
Assuming ET->BS->TF->BS, you get a 9.768 sec chain that does scale 11.4 damage, for an average DPA of 1.167; Martial Arts, using the SK->CS->SK->CAK chain posted earlier, does scale 6.72 damage in 5.808 seconds, for an average of 1.157.
Advantage EM, right? Well, not really - once you add in a 10% critical rate, the MA chain simply goes up by 10% to scale 7.392, with an average of 1.273. The EM chain, due to a non-critical in EM and reduced critical in TF, only goes up to scale 11.828 and so averages 1.211 DS/sec. The higher the critical rate, the farther MA pulls ahead of EM, and note that even at a 5% critical rate MA is ahead (at 1.215 to 1.190). If nothing else, the changes to MA indicate that there's no reason to withhold EM from Scrappers if it uses the reduced criticals (and likely stun chances) of the Stalker version - it's worse in both single target and AoE damage.
In addition to doing more single target damage, the faster animations of MA allow flexibility in how you want to respond in combat, since you're not locked into ~3-3.5sec animations. You also aren't doing damage to yourself every 10 seconds in your attack chain.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Well, the DPA numbers for the attacks in EM and MA for Stalkers, assuming NO criticals, are:
Energy Melee: ET: 1.57 (no critical) TF: 1.047 (reduced critical, only scale 1 of 3.56 can critical) BS: 0.956 EP: 0.947 Martial Arts: SK: 1.25 CAK: 1.147 CK: 1.061 CS: 1.061 EC: 1.053 Assuming ET->BS->TF->BS, you get a 9.768 sec chain that does scale 11.4 damage, for an average DPA of 1.167; Martial Arts, using the SK->CS->SK->CAK chain posted earlier, does scale 6.72 damage in 5.808 seconds, for an average of 1.157. Advantage EM, right? Well, not really - once you add in a 10% critical rate, the MA chain simply goes up by 10% to scale 7.392, with an average of 1.273. The EM chain, due to a non-critical in EM and reduced critical in TF, only goes up to scale 11.828 and so averages 1.211 DS/sec. The higher the critical rate, the farther MA pulls ahead of EM, and note that even at a 5% critical rate MA is ahead (at 1.215 to 1.190). If nothing else, the changes to MA indicate that there's no reason to withhold EM from Scrappers if it uses the reduced criticals (and likely stun chances) of the Stalker version - it's worse in both single target and AoE damage. In addition to doing more single target damage, the faster animations of MA allow flexibility in how you want to respond in combat, since you're not locked into ~3-3.5sec animations. You also aren't doing damage to yourself every 10 seconds in your attack chain. |
Very interesting math. Thanks!
Well, I think MA "should" do more "raw" damage than EM because MA only has smashing damage type and the secondary effects don't synergize as well as EM's stuns. There are little pros and cons and that's good!
Too bad I am not a pvper in this game so I just can't stand ST-only set. I don't mind when I solo but lately I've been doing +3 to +5 player setting. T_T
I really wish they could have kept Dragon Tail for Stalker. I just don't see the point having that many ST attacks. Just like Swipe in Claw. A Stalker really doesn't need that low damage Swipe but at least there's Shockwave at 32.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Sorry to bother you but with the improvement on Siphon Life in Dark Melee, how does DM compare to MA and EM?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Well, the DPA numbers for the attacks in EM and MA for Stalkers, assuming NO criticals, are:
Energy Melee: ET: 1.57 (no critical) TF: 1.047 (reduced critical, only scale 1 of 3.56 can critical) BS: 0.956 EP: 0.947 Martial Arts: SK: 1.25 CAK: 1.147 CK: 1.061 CS: 1.061 EC: 1.053 |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Here is my opinion of all of this. Well the changes are nice but dont really help the teaming issue at all. The set suffers from no aoe, just like many other stalker sets. Until Castle buffs stalkers again MA isnt really going to shine at all to me. In all honesty what needs to happen is the single target damage needs to be so good it simulates aoe damage, meaning we need attacks that can easily 1 shot +3 minions once you have SOs slotted. One thing I hear alot on these forums is the talk about dps. Outside of av/gm/pylons when does dps even matter? Like almost never. So instead of worrying about DPS we should be asking to have sets that can kill stuff in the fewest power activations as possible.
What I really think that hurts stalkers overall is that damn damage/recharge/endurance formula they use. They need to step back and look at how stalkers function on teams and see that keeping things as they aren just isnt going to work in making them team viable. Essentially what needs to happen is they throw the baby out with the bath water here and make the majority of the hardest hitting attacks not follow that formula and have their recharge halved while having their damage increased by alot. I understand that they want to have some form of balance by having this formula but its what killing stalkers that dont have much if any aoe. Allow an AT exemption of the formula and we might have something here.
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I'll assume you're talking about Stalkers still, since Soul Drain's longer duration would provide a better performance boost over time than Build Up would (it also means I can be lazy and not factor it in, since BU affects all of these sets equally) - note that whether or not that pushes it ahead of MA for Scrappers is something I haven't looked at.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Sorry to bother you but with the improvement on Siphon Life in Dark Melee, how does DM compare to MA and EM?
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Dark Melee:
Midnight's Grasp: 1.23
Smite: 1.111
Siphon Life: 0.928
Shadow Punch: 0.795
Without criticals, MG->Sm->SL->Sm does scale 7.36 damage in 6.732 seconds for an average of 1.093; with 10% criticals it would be 1.202.
Both EM (1.211) and MA (1.273) are ahead at that point, although Siphon Life certainly offers some benefit to mitigation. If I felt like playing around with it I could probably find the critical rate needed for DM to pass EM, but once again... I'm lazy.
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The fix was not to stalkers, the fix was to Martial Arts. To piecemeal fix set-by-set would interfere with future potential buffs to the stalker as an AT.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Here is my opinion of all of this. Well the changes are nice but dont really help the teaming issue at all. The set suffers from no aoe, just like many other stalker sets.
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Best fix for Stalker Martial Arts imo...
Drop Thunder Kick...
Storm Kick
Crippling Axe Kick
Cobra Strike
Assassin's Blow
Build Up
Placate
Dragon's Tail
Crane Kick
Eagle's Claw
...Give Storm Kick an alternate animation of Thunder Kick and TA DA \o/
Then give DT the Burst treatment of always critting from hide.
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Would it kill you to suggest changes that might actually happen?
I can't say it much for the stalker side, but Ma on scrapper is much better than it was before. Is it the uber best ST primary set? Eh, it depends on circumstances.
For low- to mid- levels of global recharge, it seems to be pretty good up there. Its highest attack chain is only really possible with a very high recharge, though, something that can only come from a pimped out IO build or massive external buffs. I got my high-recharge MA/Regen in a few mission at 50, and the damage with the now-possible soft-control of the set is doing pretty good. So far, I did a Pylon test and a AV test. I did take out the Rikti Pylon in less than 11 minutes (about 186 dps). I took him against Marauder, but I couldn't even put a decent dent in his health bar (though surprisingly, I was able to even stun him a few times when his purple triangles were down). I am going to try another AV without so much Smashing resists and see how the new MA changes go from there.
I am also leveling up a new MA/Shields, and see how AAO would affect its damage output, considering that its global recharge will be considerably lower than my /Regen's. If I can meet or beat the same damage expectations on my MA/Shields as I can on my MA/Regens, then it's probably an AAO-fueled toon that makes all those other primaries as good as they are, rather than just something that MA was lacking before.
Even with these new adjustments, I don't see any major changes to MA's performance in the damage department. Under normal/standard conditions, Martial Arts' performance against other sets in damage was very understated, even though it matched up pretty well for single target DPS. The Cobra Strike change simply gave the set more flexibility in power choices and the ability to perma-stun bosses without sacrificing damage. The +% crit chance post-Eagle's claw and ~+17% dam buff to Crippling Ax Kick will up its numbers, but I doubt it will create a big leap in DPS.
In the high-end game of extreme IO builds and super-uber difficult challenges, I do think that Martial Arts is a pretty good set that was underrated. However, now it has a bit of its own niche apart. Whether that is enough to make the set match up with all the rest will depending on how the set performs in the coming weeks and months after these changes.
So whats better to make overall (being at 50) stalker MA or Scrapper?
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We should just replace all offensive powers with a targeted power that sucks all the enemies on the map to that spot, applies a mag 3000 hold, then fires off Dreadful Wail and Inferno alternately. Recharge: 4 seconds.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
So instead of worrying about DPS we should be asking to have sets that can kill stuff in the fewest power activations as possible.
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Translation: I think stalker attacks should hit about as hard as total focus would, if total focus had a guaranteed critical for full damage.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
In all honesty what needs to happen is the single target damage needs to be so good it simulates aoe damage, meaning we need attacks that can easily 1 shot +3 minions once you have SOs slotted.
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(No, as a matter of fact that's not really much of an exaggeration: at level 50 to do this would require a melee attack that did scale 6.17 damage, more if the target has resistances, and the closest thing to that would be total focus at 3.56 scale, if it always did double damage which would be 7.12).
Sure, why not. Heck, why not just make stalker attacks just do Cur -1.0 damage, so they always kill their targets by setting their health to zero. Then we wouldn't have to worry about all that ugly math and numbers and junk and stuff. While you could kill giant monsters that way, you could only kill one of them at a time, so that's cool.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I'll assume you're talking about Stalkers still, since Soul Drain's longer duration would provide a better performance boost over time than Build Up would (it also means I can be lazy and not factor it in, since BU affects all of these sets equally) - note that whether or not that pushes it ahead of MA for Scrappers is something I haven't looked at.
Dark Melee: Midnight's Grasp: 1.23 Smite: 1.111 Siphon Life: 0.928 Shadow Punch: 0.795 Without criticals, MG->Sm->SL->Sm does scale 7.36 damage in 6.732 seconds for an average of 1.093; with 10% criticals it would be 1.202. Both EM (1.211) and MA (1.273) are ahead at that point, although Siphon Life certainly offers some benefit to mitigation. If I felt like playing around with it I could probably find the critical rate needed for DM to pass EM, but once again... I'm lazy. |
Looks like DM is very good as it has many useful utilities even if it does a bit less damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
DM has been compared to entire secondaries in terms of the benefit it provides to survival. It's a very nice set, even if it's not the most damaging. It's not got much AoE going on, of course, but not that many Stalker sets do.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah, that's why I created this thread in the first place because I wanted to give MA a serious try on Stalker but I find MA Set having too many ST attacks and it's just seems kinda messed up to me. It's like why would Stalker need Thunder, Storm, Cobra, Crane, Axe and Eagle? A decent build really only needs 3 reliable ST attacks and with 1 or 2 aoe. This set offers too many ST attacks and with few synergies. The stun can stack reliably from two attacks. One has a kb, one has a chance to provide only mag 2 immb and one has no secondary effect at all and has no extra critical chance like the Scrapper's. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
DM has been compared to entire secondaries in terms of the benefit it provides to survival. It's a very nice set, even if it's not the most damaging. It's not got much AoE going on, of course, but not that many Stalker sets do.
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I end up making a MA/Elec Scrapper.
MA looks quite strong on Scrapper.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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It just might, you never know. Not sure if I'm willing to take that chance either. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Would it kill you to suggest changes that might actually happen?
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[EDIT: As an aside, I did suggest changing Cobra Strike into a Crane Kick clone, and IT DID HAPPEN. Just saying
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Well, for Stalkers...on reasons to take Martial Arts...|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yeah, that's why I created this thread in the first place because I wanted to give MA a serious try on Stalker but I find MA Set having too many ST attacks and it's just seems kinda messed up to me. It's like why would Stalker need Thunder, Storm, Cobra, Crane, Axe and Eagle? A decent build really only needs 3 reliable ST attacks and with 1 or 2 aoe. This set offers too many ST attacks and with few synergies. The stun can stack reliably from two attacks. One has a kb, one has a chance to provide only mag 2 immb and one has no secondary effect at all and has no extra critical chance like the Scrapper's.
I end up making a MA/Elec Scrapper. MA looks quite strong on Scrapper. |
Storm Kick is great DPS.
Crane Kick and Cobra Strike hit hard.
Crippling Axe Kick hits harder.
Eagle's Claw may not be the best DPS, but it still packs a big punch.
Now, all that said...
Skip Thunder Kick and Crane Kick (or Cobra Strike...pick one). That's 2 power choices freed up on an AT that is starving for power slots (imo anyways).
With a high end, PvE build...Storm Kick, CK (or CS) and CAK are the attacks you need, figure you'll take Assassin's Blow as well, and Placate. So you eliminate Eagle's Claw from your build...and TA DA! 3 powers not needed to be taken!
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, for Stalkers...on reasons to take Martial Arts...
Storm Kick is great DPS. Crane Kick and Cobra Strike hit hard. Crippling Axe Kick hits harder. Eagle's Claw may not be the best DPS, but it still packs a big punch. Now, all that said... Skip Thunder Kick and Crane Kick (or Cobra Strike...pick one). That's 2 power choices freed up on an AT that is starving for power slots (imo anyways). With a high end, PvE build...Storm Kick, CK (or CS) and CAK are the attacks you need, figure you'll take Assassin's Blow as well, and Placate. So you eliminate Eagle's Claw from your build...and TA DA! 3 powers not needed to be taken! |
I would gladly skip Thunder and either Storm/Crane if I can get Dragon Tail. :P Or maybe I need a power like Hand Clap to give me a reason to skip... ugh.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
By the way, MA Scrapper is pretty awesome at lvl 14. Having Cobra and Crane so early is great for soloing and small team. I think I'll eventually skip Crane and take Axe instead because Crane's knockback can be annoying. It is a fun kick but I plan on taking Eagle and really don't need one more.
I just wish the secondary effects could synergize better.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
One of the nice things about the changes is that Cobra Strike no longer really needs anything else to synergize with. Its duration and recharge are such that stunning a boss is just a natural extension of fighting them with a strong damaging attack. (Yeah, it stacks with Eagle's Claw's stun, but that's always had such an anemic duration, all I've ever found it good for in PvE is dropping non-boss critter toggles.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Hey, A-Ville, could you provide for me as a frame of reference what kind of AOE he's talking about to compare this to? I mean, X Fireballs (which I think is the gold standard) need to hit an area simultaneously to wipe out X +3 minions, solve for X, kind of thing?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sure, why not. Heck, why not just make stalker attacks just do Cur -1.0 damage, so they always kill their targets by setting their health to zero. Then we wouldn't have to worry about all that ugly math and numbers and junk and stuff. While you could kill giant monsters that way, you could only kill one of them at a time, so that's cool.
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I *think* what he means is that if an AoE can hit many targets and rack up lots of damage, single target attacks should be capable of generating similar levels of damage just concentrated onto a single target. In terms of AoE factor balance, AoEs are typically balanced around hitting something between 2 and 3 targets, in terms of their recharge and endurance costs relative to single target attacks. So if you can hit 6 or 8 targets instead, your AoEs will be doing perhaps three times the damage for the cost that a single target attack is allowed to do. So to compensate, he's suggesting that single target attacks generate that much damage so that a set of single target attacks kills ultimately just as fast as something with a lot of AoEs.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Hey, A-Ville, could you provide for me as a frame of reference what kind of AOE he's talking about to compare this to? I mean, X Fireballs (which I think is the gold standard) need to hit an area simultaneously to wipe out X +3 minions, solve for X, kind of thing?
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The example, though is specifically stated to be one-shotting a +3, which for a stalker requires an attack almost as powerful as total focus when slotted to +95% damage, and also requires that attack crit for (near) double damage on top of that.
This line of thought is wrong on so many levels. Mostly because few offensive powersets can make reasonably full attack chains with nothing but AoEs. Ultimately, everyone uses single target attacks sometimes, and the AoE advantage is diluted somewhat because of that. And not everyone faces the large numbers of targets necessary for AoEs to reach those levels of efficiency. By attempting to balance single target attacks based on the maximum amount of damage that AoEs can deliver, you end up being forced to grant ridiculous amounts of damage to those single target attacks.
I'm not sure I could give a specific numerical example which would make this make sense, because I'm not sure one exists. But if you wanted to follow this line of thought - and as I said, I don't buy it myself - the logical way to approach it is something like this. Pick two sets to compare, say MA and Broadsword (just to keep things a little simple, I'm leaving stalkers out of it for a second because they have additional quirks to their offensive sets). MA has the one AoE, Dragon's Tail. Broadsword has two: whirling sword and slice (not counting headsplitter here). If we say that DT and WS are similar enough, MA falls short of BS on AoE potential, because it has no corresponding AoE to Slice.
So, we take Slice and we guestimate in some manner (or just pull numbers out of thin air if we need to) how many targets we believe Slice should be "balanced for." Suppose we say six. Slice does scale 1.23 damage. Hitting six targets it would do Scale 7.38 damage. So we say ok, to compensate for MA missing an analogous cone, we'll take Storm Kick, say, and buff that attack to deal 7.38 damage but with only Slice's end costs and recharge not what the formula would predict (which would be 44s of recharge and 38 endurance). Its a single target attack with the damage potential of an AoE and the costs of an AoE. And if that's high enough to one-shot a +3 minion, well, that's cool (on a scrapper it would one-shot an even LT and come very close to one-shotting a +1 LT, and with Build Up it would blast away more than half the health of an even level boss at level 50).
As I said: I don't buy this theory. But this is the version of the theory with numbers attached.
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Martial Arts also has superior AoE damage and AoE mitigation, so while DM is leveraging Soul Drain to ramp up its single target damage, Martial Arts is just killing the spawn and knocking 75% of the foes hit by Dragon's Tail on their backs.