The only change Hand Clap needs to be useful is to change the Knock Back to Knock Down. Ta-da, now Hand Clap is more similar to Fault, an *incredibly* useful power.
Of course, I would actually be *against* this change, simply because I think SS is already to powerful as it is, and buffing it anymore would be silly.
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Lots of powers would be made much more useful that way.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
The only change Hand Clap needs to be useful is to change the Knock Back to Knock Down. Ta-da, now Hand Clap is more similar to Fault, an *incredibly* useful power.
Of course, I would actually be *against* this change, simply because I think SS is already to powerful as it is, and buffing it anymore would be silly. |
Shockwave from claws
Lightning Clap
Repulsive Torrent
Crane Kick (only one I would really love to see turn to KU)
Hell, could even throw some ranged stuff in that list as well.
Explosive arrow
M30 Grenade
Explosive Blast
Not that I ever expect any of those to change. And would have to agree, either giving hand clap damage, or giving it KD instead of KB would make the set even more unbalanced. Add damage to hand clap and then consider the AOEs you can get from the MU pool. You end up with 3 AOE attacks with damage and a 15' radius and 1 more with a 10' radius and the ability to lock the mobs in place so the KB has no negative effect. Now while I would love to play such a toon it would be waaaaaay too overpowered.
About the only thing you could do to make it not overpower the set would be to have it on a 20 second timer to be similar to fault.
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And it does a very good job of that. And for giving you a moment of not being beat on when you need to pop an inspiration or two. It's a situational power and fine as it is. Not every power needs to be useful in every single fight, after all.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
to me hand clap is a cool looking power and would be really awesome but how it is now with the massive kb and the 0 dmg, poeple dont have any reason to even bother taking it unless they want some aggro mitigation during a rage crash
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Ok, that's what I figured. And it's why I included the link to both.|
Originally Posted by Novella
Simple mistake. I was thinking of Fury when I typed Rage. I had more to my post which based around Fury but removed it.
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As someone who has both a level 50 SS Tanker and level 50 EM Tanker, I can tell you that SS way out damages EM all day long, and without double-stacking Rage.
I never try to double-stack rage because I hate the huge increase in end drain and those 10 second enforced breaks.
Enough side-tracking myself though, back on topic. No, the devs haven't said why they put so many useless non-damaging powers into the melee attack sets. They do seem to have figured out for themselves that they were bad decisions, and over the last two years or so they've been slowly fixing a lot of the stupider powers.
However, I think we all know that neither EM nor SS are going to be buffed / un-over-nerfed / changed in any way until after they've figured out what they're going to do to port them over to Scrappers.
Enjoy your double-stacked rage while you can.
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Thats just dumb though. You are complaining that super strength toons dont have any aoe -before they get their aoe power.- And its not just some subpar aoe, its the hands down best melee AT aoe in the game. Undisputed. So what if you have to be a little ST focused early on to get it. At least you get KoB at level 8. The best AoE set also gets its heavy hitter ten levels before ET gets total focus. AND, have you ever even looked at KoB's numbers? It does more damage with rage up than Energy Transfer does, and KoB does it in .4 seconds less time. It does the same amount of damage as Total focus, with rage turned off, but it does it over a second faster. Yeah, the aoe master set also has better burst damage than energy transfer, the most aoe lacking set. Im still trying to figure out why comparing the best aoe melee set to the worst was somehow a good idea in your mind. How was that supposed to support your arguement?|
Originally Posted by Novella
There is nothing inaccurate about my statement. Looking at my posts after replying to Mac and you will see I am talking about the set prior to getting Foot Stomp, hence my post talking about the lack of area of effect damage.
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| Energy Melee does more damage than Super Strength prior to Foot Stomp and that much is blatantly obvious since smashing damage is resisted much more commonly than energy damage is. |
jab 51.1
punch 75.1
hay 123.1
kob 267.3
hurl 123.1
fs 106.6
All smashing damage, which btw if Im not mistaken is not as resisted as lethal.
barrage 55.1 /\ 41.76 /\ 13.34
epunch 41.7 /\ 29.2 /\ 12.5
bsmasher 68.4 / \ 41.7 /\ 26.7
wh 41.7 /\ 25 /\ 16.7
tf 148.5 /\ 41.7 /\ 106.8
et 190.2 /\ 65.1 /\ 125.1
Obviously not a pretty spreadsheet, but the first numbers the overall, the second is the smashing damage, the third is the energy damage. Notice how only tf and et have a majority of their damage being energy. The rest of the attacks have a majority of their damage being smashing. Now I am not 100% on how resistance is checked, but my understanding is it checks how much damage is comming in from that damage type, and uses your damage resistance to that type as a deducting percentage.
So lets do the same numbers, against a guy with 50% smashing resistance and 0 energy resistance. The first number is the normal attack damage (SS has rage applied once) and the second is the damage dealt once you take into account the 50% resistance.
jab 51.1 /\ 25.55
punch 75.1 /\ 37.55
hay 123.1 /\ 61.55
kob 267.3 /\ 133.65
hurl 123.1 /\ 61.55
fs 106.6 /\ 53.3
barrage 55.1 / \ 34.22
epunch 41.7 /\ 27.1
bsmasher 68.4 /\ 47.55
wh 41.7 /\ 29.2
tf 148.5 /\ 127.65
et 190.2 /\ 176.65
Even with 50% resistance to your exact damage type, KoB outdamages TF, and in a second faster time. Same end cost, kob has a 5 second longer recharge. ET outdamages KoB, but again, this is against someone with 50% resistance to smashing, and 0 resistance to energy. Obviously punch is the redheaded stepchild, but on EVERY OTHER POWER SS still comes out doing more damage even with the 50% resistance to smashing, 0% resistance to energy.
It is not blatantly obvious.
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| Can SS do more damage than EM? Sure. Fury and double stacked Rage can easily make it surpass EM, but those are special factors and factors that do not apply to every person playing the SS set. |
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| This is not a topic about whether EM is better than SS or vice versa. I am simply asking if it has even been explained why certain NPC's can do damage with Hand Clap where as we cannot.[/color] |
Handclap wasnt given damage for balance reasons. I dont think it should be given damage either, since neither SS nor Elec melee need any more aoe damage. The change I am for is changing the KB mag to .67, so it becomes knockdown, and is enhanceable back to knockback mag after using any amount of kb enhanceing.
edit: hunting down the pink. Also for clarity on my spreadsheet 5000.
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Why is this irrelevant data? Because the proportional benefit of Rage is far greater when it's the only +dam you're using in the situation. The conclusion stays the same, but the example could be called skewed by someone who wanted to ignore it, so I'll try again using damage slotting. Since the initial argument was about Tankers, I won't include Fury which will change a lot of things.|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Does it really seem that blatantly obvious to you? If so, Im guessing you are going off assumptions, never actually looking at the numbers. Lets do a side by side comparison of damage.
<wall of irrelevant data snipped> |
Trying again, using damage scales:
Base numbers:
Super Strength:
Jab: 0.68
Punch: 1
Haymaker: 1.64
Knockout Blow: 3.56
Hurl: 1.64
Footstomp: 1.42
Energy Melee:
Barrage: 1.32 (1 Sm, 0.32 En)
Energy Punch: 1 (0.7 Sm, 0.3 En)
Bonesmasher: 1.64 (1 Sm, 0.64 En)
Whirling Hands: 1 (0.6 Sm, 0.4 En)
Total Focus: 3.56 (1 Sm, 2.56 En)
Energy Transfer: 4.56 (1.56 Sm, 3 En)
Factor in 95% damage slotting, applying single effect of Rage to SS:
Super Strength:
Jab: 0.68 * (1 + 0.95 + 0.8) = 1.87
Punch: 1 * (1 + 0.95 + 0.8) = 2.75
Haymaker: 1.64 * (1 + 0.95 + 0.8) = 4.51
Knockout Blow: 3.56 * (1 + 0.95 + 0.8) = 9.79
Hurl: 1.64 * (1 + 0.95 + 0.8) = 4.51
Footstomp: 1.42 * (1 + 0.95 + 0.8) = 3.905
Energy Melee:
Barrage: 1.32 (1 Sm, 0.32 En) * 1.95 = (1.95 Sm, .624 En), 2.574 total
Energy Punch: 1 (0.7 Sm, 0.3 En) * 1.95 = (1.365 Sm, 0.585 En), 1.95 total
Bonesmasher: 1.64 (1 Sm, 0.64 En) * 1.95 = (1.95 Sm, 1.248 En), 3.198 total
Whirling Hands: 1 (0.6 Sm, 0.4 En) * 1.95 = (1.17 Sm, 0.78 En), 1.95 total
Total Focus: 3.56 (1 Sm, 2.56 En) * 1.95 = (1.95 Sm, 4.992 En), 6.942 total
Energy Transfer: 4.56 (1.56 Sm, 3 En) * 1.95 = (3.042 Sm, 5.85 En), 8.892 total
Now, with the 50% Smashing Resistance:
Super Strength:
Jab: 1.87 * 0.5 = 0.935
Punch: 2.75 * 0.5 = 1.375
Haymaker: 4.51 * 0.5 = 2.255
Knockout Blow: 9.79 * 0.5 = 4.895
Hurl: 4.51 * 0.5 = 2.255
Footstomp: 3.905 * 0.5 = 1.9525
Energy Melee:
Barrage: 1.95 Sm * 0.5 + .624 En = 1.599
Energy Punch: 1.365 Sm * 0.5 + 0.585 En = 1.2675
Bonesmasher: 1.95 Sm * 0.5 + 1.248 En = 2.223
Whirling Hands: 1.17 Sm * 0.5 + 0.78 En = 1.365
Total Focus: 1.95 Sm * 0.5 + 4.992 En = 5.967
Energy Transfer: 3.042 Sm * 0.5 + 5.85 En = 7.371
Note that SS with Rage is still ahead on most attacks, but the numbers are a bit closer. It's not until you start working in Fury that EM starts pulling ahead, so it's really only "good" on Brutes - and that's still debatable.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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My bad, not good at the numbers game. The point is made though. The set starts out slow, but has major improvements at level 18 and obviously 32.
The only part of this I support is removing Damage from AV/Hero class SS handclap. Once with 50% damage resistance I still took 500 HPS from Statesmans HC.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
Jumping on to the end of this: EM isn't particularly awful itself, simply that it is beaten by SS, which by the numbers is just an overpowered set. I love SS to bits, but it's definitely on the overpowered side of the scale.
Next, the reason why powers like Hand Clap are the way they are is due to the game's initial design. They were made in what can pretty much now be called the infancy of MMORPG gaming as we know it. However, now sets are balanced with the powers they have in mind, and SS needs to be re-balanced in the other direction if anything.
Also, AVs were given a damaging Hand Clap for two reasons: first, to make them special and fearsome; second, because the AI is rather dumb, and can't make good use of it as a control power.
Trying to justify giving player Hand Clap damage because an AV has it can be easily refuted, and it's numerically obvious that SS as a set doesn't really need the help in the damage department.
And to whomever said KM sucks...check your numbers. It's at least an above average set, though perhaps not as good as SS, though I think we've already managed to show that SS is not a proper measuring stick in terms of game balance.
1) I don't agree with most of the OPs assertions.
2) I'd like to see Handclap changed from +5.193 Knockback to +0.67 Knockback.
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I'd like to see printscreens of combat logs of these if anyone is doing them soon. I don't really fight Heroes so that would be up in the air to me.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
statesman
reichsman BABs imperious (although you never fight him his hand clap does do dmg) pretty much any NPC AV thats not a custom critter in AE which as hand clap from what ive seen does dmg |
Edit:Nevermind, just confirmed Babs, I should play villains more!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Aside from BABs, the other three are Incarnates. Clearly the damage is coming from one of the ten new Incarnate slots we haven't gotten yet 
The Story of a Petless MM with a dream
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This entire post should receive some kind of award for being both hysterical and fantastic.
Well done. |
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I'm pretty sure the Thugs' MM Bruiser's Hand Clap was changed to do just that.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
2) I'd like to see Handclap changed from +5.193 Knockback to +0.67 Knockback.
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I suspect, though that the problem is in the hands of a player the devs feel that would just be TOO powerful. It would essentially be giving a Tanker or Brute a 100% AoE Stun or Hold. And Hand Clap already has a Stun, which I believe is 100%, with a 50% chance of it being mag 3 instead of mag 2. So the knockback may actually be seen as a penalty for the disorient being so powerful.
Perhaps what should happen is the Knockback should be lowered to a 50% chance, or even lower, so SOME of the foes will be knocked back, and SOME will be stunned. You could even stack an additional 100% chance of 0.67 Knockback on top of that, so that those who aren't stunned or knocked back will be knocked down. It's a bit more chaotic, but I believe the chance to keep the majority of foes in melee with you will make up for the randomness.
They changed handclap on the bruisers because it was his favorite move and he was doing it at every chance he got, throwing mobs completely out of debuffs and such. They realized that was no bueno because the player had no control over it. However, since the power is considered by many as detrimental to your safety, players just skip it. Knocking whole mobs out of Invincibility or RttC is counter productive as a damage mitigator. Now when they attack you again, you dont have the defense from invincibility or extra regen from RttC to handle that incoming damage. Also, considering most sets dont have a 25 foot radius aoe, and have to make due with an 8 footer, when someone on the team has just spread out the tightly clustered group, that dude fireing off the 8 foot pbaoe is SOL.
Handclap and Lightning clap dont have the benefit of doing damage on their side for this arguement. All they have going for them outside of the completely frusterating kb, is the stun. And if I really wanted mobs being stunned, wouldnt it make more sense to grab a troller/dom? As is, the kb is way more detrimental to survival than any benefit from the mobs getting stunned.
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BIG JRanger!|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I
Perhaps what should happen is the Knockback should be lowered to a 50% chance, or even lower, so SOME of the foes will be knocked back, and SOME will be stunned. You could even stack an additional 100% chance of 0.67 Knockback on top of that, so that those who aren't stunned or knocked back will be knocked down. It's a bit more chaotic, but I believe the chance to keep the majority of foes in melee with you will make up for the randomness. |
Making it a chance for KB would remove the utility of the power. You don't need "chance for mitigation" in a oh-crap power.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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It's because the pet can't use it strategicaly that it's bad.|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
They changed handclap on the bruisers because it was his favorite move and he was doing it at every chance he got, throwing mobs completely out of debuffs and such. They realized that was no bueno because the player had no control over it.
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However, since the power is considered by many as detrimental to your safety, players just skip it. Knocking whole mobs out of Invincibility or RttC is counter productive as a damage mitigator. Now when they attack you again, you dont have the defense from invincibility or extra regen from RttC to handle that incoming damage. Also, considering most sets dont have a 25 foot radius aoe, and have to make due with an 8 footer, when someone on the team has just spread out the tightly clustered group, that dude fireing off the 8 foot pbaoe is SOL. Handclap and Lightning clap dont have the benefit of doing damage on their side for this arguement. All they have going for them outside of the completely frusterating kb, is the stun. And if I really wanted mobs being stunned, wouldnt it make more sense to grab a troller/dom? As is, the kb is way more detrimental to survival than any benefit from the mobs getting stunned. |
So no the KB is not "frusterating" and it's not detrimental for survivability. Only if you don't know how to use it.
P.S. My main is /invuln and i never died i used HandClap. It saved my life quite a few times though.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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You're missing a few.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
How many powers have an aura of survivability? 2 out of 9. A lot of the secondary love the extra mitigation it provides.
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Invulnerability (+def), Willpower (+regen, -tohit), Shields (-dam), Dark Armor (heal, stun, fear, -tohit), and (arguably) Electric Armor (end drain) all get better mitigation for having things near close by.
Knocking things down gives you a few seconds. Knocking them away is just plain stupid for most melee characters - note that most of the "proper use of KB" involves knocking things to group them together, or preventing them from ever getting up again.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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The -dam in shields in so little though. =P|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
You're missing a few.
Invulnerability (+def), Willpower (+regen, -tohit), Shields (-dam), Dark Armor (heal, stun, fear, -tohit), and (arguably) Electric Armor (end drain) all get better mitigation for having things near close by. Knocking things down gives you a few seconds. Knocking them away is just plain stupid for most melee characters. |
True about dark armor, i really didnt think of that one.
edit: Invuln and WP were the two i mentionned.
Knocking them away gives you 1-2 more secondes while they are thrown and 1-2 more secondes when they try to reach back at you...if they aren't already dead.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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You missed the point of what I said. It is already a 100% chance of Stun. The Knockback is redundant if the 100% chance of Stun is sufficient mitigation. |
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
BIG JRanger!
Making it a chance for KB would remove the utility of the power. You don't need "chance for mitigation" in a oh-crap power. |
The only reason it wouldn't be is because mag 2 Stun isn't enough to stun anything but Minions. Which it isn't. Which is the reason why I also suggested a 100% chance of KnockDOWN on top of the Knockback.
The only difference between my suggestion and the common one of changing the Knockback to Knockdown is that SOME of the foes will go flying.
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Wich is the best way to make it hard to control. You won't know wich enemies will go away and wich one will stay. And that will spread them out. Presently, you can throw them all in the same general direction, and they will all land at the "same" distance.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The only difference between my suggestion and the common one of changing the Knockback to Knockdown is that SOME of the foes will go flying.
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That's the reason i don't like energy blast's aoe attacks. They are unreliable.
And knockback still gives more time then knockdown. So that's what i'd want for the non-minions. =P
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Right, and Im saying some sets are barred from its use. It would be useful to sets like invuln, wp, dark, ice, and even shield, if it did knockdown. Still get the mitigation without putting yourself in more danger after the stun effect wears off, unless the guys not hit/effected down you first. |
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
It's because the pet can't use it strategicaly that it's bad.
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I say shields too because I have an elec/shielder who had lightning clap, but I respec'd out because when I would use it on teams, it would knock guys out of my taunt aura and after wandering a little, the stun would wear off and theyd find one of my teammates to beat on. And Elec doesnt have its large radius aoe available as often as SS with footstomp, so I couldnt grab their attention that way.
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| P.S. My main is /invuln and i never died i used HandClap. It saved my life quite a few times though. |
And yeah, you forgot ice, with chilling embrace.
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Nah i still have it. But it's my fault, it was supposed to be this:|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
So did you respec out of it or am I reading that wrong?
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P.S. My main is /invuln and i never died because i used HandClap. It saved my life quite a few times though.
I forgot the "because".
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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So did I, but I don't play Tankers much (I have 3 total, and only one - the 50 SD/SS - made it out of the 20s). I never died from using Hand Clap either, but that may be due to having skipped it. |
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
And yeah, you forgot ice, with chilling embrace.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Redtomax is showing me Mag 1 Stun for Brutes and Mag 2 Stun for Tankers.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I'm pretty sure the Thugs' MM Bruiser's Hand Clap was changed to do just that.
I suspect, though that the problem is in the hands of a player the devs feel that would just be TOO powerful. It would essentially be giving a Tanker or Brute a 100% AoE Stun or Hold. And Hand Clap already has a Stun, which I believe is 100%, with a 50% chance of it being mag 3 instead of mag 2. So the knockback may actually be seen as a penalty for the disorient being so powerful. |
It's also 50% Stun, not 100%.
I can't confirm in-game if that's accurate.
My problem is, from a Brute perspective, I don't need a mag 1 stun + 5.193 KB for anything - a mag 0.67 KB or even better 5.193 KU (if the KB were changed to KU) without any stun would be a much more useful power - I wouldn't include it in my final builds but it would at least be useful for levelling.
Or barring that, a Mag 3 60-80% stun that did no KB of any kind.
Either of those would be much more useful.
As it stands now, I can honestly say I have never grouped with any SS Brute (one of the more common primaries) that actually took handclap.
I took it once, on my SS/FA Brute, thinking it would help while leveling due to FA's squishyness and I dropped it because even though the mitigation was there - scattering all of my opponents was just horrible in terms of enjoyment as well as not meshing with my playstyle at all.
It also didn't do very much. Yes, it gave me breathing room, but enemies not near me are enemies not becoming dead.
From a tanker perspective, I still wouldn't want to scatter my opponents. I want them locked in combat with me.
I don't know if the devs would deem stun + KB 0.67 too powerful vs. Stun + 5.193 KB.
I do know that the vast majority of players I know consider the power totally useless and skip it without a second thought.
It's a power you will be made fun of for taking, it's that bad.
SS doesn't need to stack Rage to outdamage EM, and everyone should be stacking Rage at least for a few seconds to negate the defense debuff that comes along with the crash.
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."