It is a dilemma I faced, and solved by using ... Chillblain.
Since you have Shiver, I would say O2 from your choices.
If I had your build, I would steal a slot from Ice Slick (difference: 1 second recharge) and Hover (the BotZ), though I'm not sure how much difference that would make.
One other possibility: take Snowstorm, drop Shiver, grab Flash Freeze (after swapping places between Shiver and AA) and throw the Sleep purple in there. An extra 6.5% recharge there...
Reptl,
I'm not sure how Chilblain would affect things, unless you just took it as a dump power or an AV-holding power.
I would love to be able to fit in the sleep but I'm not willing to drop my other powers. I like them all. Depending on who I am teamed with, I sometimes play at range, and I consider Shiver vital. I also sometimes play in melee range, and sometimes I play in a hybrid "rover" position.
The Ice Slick option isn't terrible .... it wouldn't be up as much as I'd like if I exemplared down, but then again it might. My purple set bonuses work if I have access to the power so the Immob would lend a 10% recharge to Ice Slick even when exemplared down.
Some part of me chafes at the idea of anything less than 3 recharge in Ice Slick though, especially since I try to make my builds slotted in the way I'd actually level them up.
I'll think about it, and in the meantime, I'll consider other advice as well.
Thanks,
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
My take on it: all your other powers (except Steamy Mist, which is a toggle) are oriented toward "doing unto others." Introducing O2 Boost means you have to watch teammates' life bars (at least, if you want to make having it useful to teammates) and stop "doing unto others" to fix them with the worst heal in Defenderdom. Introducing Snowstorm, on the other hand, frees you from the need to monitor allies and (being an autohit toggle) minimizes the fiddling -- letting you just concentrate on unleashing hell on unfortunates.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Actually I think you've run into a Mid's database bug.... you can't actually slot Ice Blast as an AoE attack. It's single target only (but you can use the same slotting you used in Lightning Storm to similar effect).
For this build I would say take O2 Burst. Snow Storm is murder on the endurance bar.
Note that you can also swap the current slotting for three level 40 Miracles and get a small amount of extra recovery.
I know you didn't request comments on the rest of the build, but I'd be tempted to replace at least some of the recharge IOs in Ice Slick with Range. Ice Slick around a corner is a nasty surprise, and because of the -RunSpeed enemies can't run off of it to come get you.
I'm not a huge fan of O2, but it does have its uses. Always nice to be able to heal in a pinch, but it tries to do too much and is pretty lackluster compared to both Heal Other and Clear Mind. It would be better if it did all status effects but for half the duration.
Quote:
Yeah, I noted that in the original post. Lots of the Epic and Ancillary powers in the latest Mids' are affected in the same way, but not all.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Actually I think you've run into a Mid's database bug.... you can't actually slot Ice Blast as an AoE attack. It's single target only (but you can use the same slotting you used in Lightning Storm to similar effect).
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As for Range on Ice Slick, I dunno. I'm not normally a corner caster. I usually prefer to use short-term distractions and/or charge in with Hurricane and/or other knockback powers supporting me.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Since you have both Shiver and Arctic Air, I would lean towards O2 Boost over Snow Storm. On my Ice/Storm, I picked Snow Storm over Shiver, but 2 slow powers is enough -- one PB AoE and one ranged.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Hmm. That's a good point, but it makes me lean the other way ... towards Snow Storm.
On some teams, I operate purely at range. In that event, it would be nice to stack 2 slows without having to enter melee range. On other teams, I enter melee. In that event, it would be nice to stack AA with Snow Storm (toggle on a target in melee). Moving out a bit to cover everyone with shiver would be awkward.
So I should probably go with Snow Storm.
Ah well, I'll dwell on it and then decide this weekend (when I have time to do a respec).
Thanks,
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Quote:
Do you really need to STACK slows? Isn't one ranged slow power pretty much at the runspeed and -Recharge cap? On my Ice/Storm, I use AA all the time, and only pull out Snowstorm when I need to handle a group at range . . . it doesn't get used all that much, except during the ITF, when I throw it on all the EBs and AVs.|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
Hmm. That's a good point, but it makes me lean the other way ... towards Snow Storm.
On some teams, I operate purely at range. In that event, it would be nice to stack 2 slows without having to enter melee range. On other teams, I enter melee. In that event, it would be nice to stack AA with Snow Storm (toggle on a target in melee). Moving out a bit to cover everyone with shiver would be awkward. So I should probably go with Snow Storm. Ah well, I'll dwell on it and then decide this weekend (when I have time to do a respec). Thanks, Lewis |
Personally, I like SS over Shiver on my Ice/Storm because of my playstyle -- I throw it out at range, and then I can focus on the foes around my melee teammates without worrying about it. I'm familiar with Shiver, since my first level 50 Blaster was an Ice/Ice who uses Shiver constantly. I like to have O2 Boost for Jack and to pull teammates out of stuns -- I think it provides more benefit to me than Shiver would.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
Actually Ice Blast is bugged on live. The sets it accepts has been swapped with Sleet from the new Dominator Ice Mastery. Mid's was correct all along. I've been trying to get this bug noticed since I had just made a set of enhancements for my own Ice Blast but now I can't put them in. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Actually I think you've run into a Mid's database bug.... you can't actually slot Ice Blast as an AoE attack. It's single target only (but you can use the same slotting you used in Lightning Storm to similar effect).
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Quote:
I always thought that 1 power could cap the -runspeed but that it took 2 to cap the recharge (or get near). But maybe not.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Do you really need to STACK slows? Isn't one ranged slow power pretty much at the runspeed and -Recharge cap?
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I'm still torn. Going the Snowstorm route is cheaper to perma-hasten, but I do honestly find I never use SS unless I'm fighting AVs. At least on my controllers. On Masterminds, I am more inclined to use it. But the O2 Boost option is the more expensive / more awkward one.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
My understanding is that the run speed cap is 90% slow, and the Recharge reduction cap is 75%. From City of Data:
Snow Storm gives 62.5% Run speed and Recharge debuffs
Shiver gives 81.25% to both Run Speed and Recharge debuffs
Arctic Air is 62.5% Recharge, 81.25% Run Speed
So, Shiver alone will cap Recharge. Any of them will cap run speed with one slot of slow. Obviously, any two of them will cap both. I personally would not see the the need for all three.
Is perma-Hasten really that important that you would give up a way to heal your pet? Heal teammates and break mez? If it is, then take the three slow powers.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Well, I can get to Perma-Hasten either way. But yeah, I think I'll go with a cheaper set, be 1.3 (basically 2) seconds short, and use O2 Boost. The City of Data info is pretty convincing that I don't need both.
Sweet. Thanks!
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
I don't actually use either on my Controller. Snow Storm was useful in earlier levels before I had more reliable controls, and 02 boost has just never been useful to me. If I'm doing my job right, they won't need to be healed. I would almost say 02 Boost is detrimental in that if you are trying to focus on keeping someone afloat with your subpar heal, you aren't able to reliable control the spawn, which is causing far more damage then you are preventing.
You need Snow Storm even less because of your primary, but if I was going to pick one or the other it would be Snow Storm. You'd probably be better off just picking something else entirely, though.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I always thought that 1 power could cap the -runspeed but that it took 2 to cap the recharge (or get near). But maybe not.
I'm still torn. Going the Snowstorm route is cheaper to perma-hasten, but I do honestly find I never use SS unless I'm fighting AVs. At least on my controllers. On Masterminds, I am more inclined to use it. But the O2 Boost option is the more expensive / more awkward one. Lewis |
You're sort of correct. It depends on the level of the enemies.
Generally speaking you can predict how effective a debuff is against a +4 enemy by cutting the value of the power in half (the real value is 48%). Snow Storm's -62.5% is only worth -30% against a group of +4s. Shiver's -81.3% is worth about 39%. If you want to floor enemies you have to combine multiple powers.
Then there are AVs. Assuming you are level 50, a level 50 AV has about 85% resistance to -Recharge. Ice/Cold is pretty much the only Controller combo I can think of with a chance to impact the AVs -Recharge in a meaningful way. Because Snow Storm is a toggle, if you can endure the endurance cost you get an automatic -9.37 base -Recharge. Whether that means anything depends entirely on what you stack with it. Heat Loss is a huge -Recharge debuff (-300%) but it's only up part of the time.
As a general rule, I consider any -Recharge totalling less than -50% to be mostly ignorable. -50% is the point where an enemies powers take twice as long to Recharge. Note that like Defense, the more -Recharge you stack the more effective it is. It takes all the first 50 points to double the enemy's recharge, but the difference between tripling quadrupling the recharge is only about 8%.
I wrote a detailed post about -Recharge a while back that might be helpful: http://coh103.gtm.cityofheroes.com/s...d.php?t=218111
[EDIT: Forgot you are playing Storm and not Cold Dom. The info still stands, but I would vote for 02 Burst. I think you will need it to keep the idiot pet out of trouble. He often thinks he is an Animated Stone and not a piddly pile of ice.]
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Nice to know that you are so fantastic at controlling that nobody on your teams ever takes any damage or gets mezzed . . . including that crazy blaster you picked up who keeps running into melee before the tank gets there.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
I don't actually use either on my Controller. Snow Storm was useful in earlier levels before I had more reliable controls, and 02 boost has just never been useful to me. If I'm doing my job right, they won't need to be healed. I would almost say 02 Boost is detrimental in that if you are trying to focus on keeping someone afloat with your subpar heal, you aren't able to reliable control the spawn, which is causing far more damage then you are preventing.
You need Snow Storm even less because of your primary, but if I was going to pick one or the other it would be Snow Storm. You'd probably be better off just picking something else entirely, though. |
Me, I'm not quite so perfect all the time. O2 Boost is a wimpy heal . . . but it is enough to keep your pet alive at times. It is enough to heal your pet or your teammates between missions when you would otherwise be standing around looking at his red healthbar. It is enough to take away the stun a teammate has after using a wakie. (In fact, I have used O2 Boost for a teammate who uses a wakie near some foes . . . timed properly, it is faster than popping a Wakie and then a Break Free.) It is enough to add a little bit of Endurance Drain resistance to a teammate when dealing with Carnies.
Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but the "you shouldn't need it" tone is a little bit irritating. O2 Boost has several uses other than its wimpy heal. I find times that it comes in handy, even if I don't need it most of the time.
And Snow Storm? Since my Ice/Storm relies upon Arctic Air most of the time, I don't use it that much. It becomes my way of handling a group bothering the rest of the team when I'm up with the melee guys -- especially if I just used Ice Slick. But on the ITF, I use Snow Storm a ton on those EBs and AVs . . . who resist most controls but not slows.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
I don't actually use either on my Controller. Snow Storm was useful in earlier levels before I had more reliable controls, and 02 boost has just never been useful to me. If I'm doing my job right, they won't need to be healed. I would almost say 02 Boost is detrimental in that if you are trying to focus on keeping someone afloat with your subpar heal, you aren't able to reliable control the spawn, which is causing far more damage then you are preventing.
You need Snow Storm even less because of your primary, but if I was going to pick one or the other it would be Snow Storm. You'd probably be better off just picking something else entirely, though. |
Unfortunately because of the layout of power selections he has only 02 Burst, Chillblain, and Snow Storm to pick from.
(Actually IMO Chillblain isn't a horrible choice. It does the same damage as Block of Ice but animates very quickly, 1.1 seconds. Chillblain > BoI > Chillblain > Ice Blast isn't a bad power cycle for soloing.)
Take both. Ditch Hasten.
(WHAT?! who is this nutbar?)
Yes. I'm actually serious. My Ice/Storm is slotted for recharge and could have perma-hasten fairly easily but I'm not sure its worth taking Hasten when I already have so much recharge already.
Point One: Arctic Air, Hurricane, and Snow Storm (should you take it) are toggles and thus recharge is more or less irrelevant. Also since Lightning Storm can no longer inherit recharge having huge recharge is much less useful than it used to be with regard to this power.
Point Two: Storm will drain your blue bar dry, and the faster your recharge is the faster it can do it. Even with Stamina (with shifter proc), Numina, Miracle, end redux in various powrs (from sets) and various piddly set boosts I can flatten my endurance in short order if I go all out. Massive recharge won't really help if you are running on empty.
Point Three: Until the devs bother to make ancillary powers customizable, it looks horrible with ice. Unless you are going for a yellow snow motif or something, in which case I worry about you.
Ordinarily I'm all for perma-hasten. Most of the controllers I play seriously have it, but in the case of Ice/Storm I'm not sure it's needed.
Just in the interest of full disclosure I don't have 02 Boost either, since if Jack dies I just summon a new one, and on most teams that are actually taking on serious content there's going to be one of Clarity, Thaw, Increase Density, or Clear Mind already on the team anyway. Not to say it isn't a useful power, but I don't find myself missing it much.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EinValentine
My Ice/Storm is slotted for recharge and could have perma-hasten fairly easily but I'm not sure its worth taking Hasten when I already have so much recharge already.
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It is.
IMO.
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No question!
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It is.
IMO. |
Quote:
Look, either be a **** or don't, but don't throw disingenuous comments like, "sorry for the sarcastic tone" when you clearly aren't. I don't care so much that you misinterpreted my post, but it confuses me to no end why people are apologizing to me for their behavior, demonstrating that they know they're being a ****, yet go right on ahead doing it anyway. It's like knowing that fire is hot, and burny ,and painful, yet jumping right on in anyway. |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Nice to know that you are so fantastic at controlling that nobody on your teams ever takes any damage or gets mezzed . . . including that crazy blaster you picked up who keeps running into melee before the tank gets there.
Me, I'm not quite so perfect all the time. O2 Boost is a wimpy heal . . . but it is enough to keep your pet alive at times. It is enough to heal your pet or your teammates between missions when you would otherwise be standing around looking at his red healthbar. It is enough to take away the stun a teammate has after using a wakie. (In fact, I have used O2 Boost for a teammate who uses a wakie near some foes . . . timed properly, it is faster than popping a Wakie and then a Break Free.) It is enough to add a little bit of Endurance Drain resistance to a teammate when dealing with Carnies. Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but the "you shouldn't need it" tone is a little bit irritating. O2 Boost has several uses other than its wimpy heal. I find times that it comes in handy, even if I don't need it most of the time. And Snow Storm? Since my Ice/Storm relies upon Arctic Air most of the time, I don't use it that much. It becomes my way of handling a group bothering the rest of the team when I'm up with the melee guys -- especially if I just used Ice Slick. But on the ITF, I use Snow Storm a ton on those EBs and AVs . . . who resist most controls but not slows. |
I gave my opinion. It wasn't "Look how great I am, I'm so much better than you" it was that I find AOE controls are a preferable mitigation to your single target heal, and in most/all situations I did not find the single target heal the better choice in comparison to something else. I get very little use out of it as a result, and I thought I'd share that opinion. I don't mind that you found some use for it, but that doesn't automatically make my experience wrong either.
Why does everyone feel the need to save the crazy blaster? You're just reinforcing their bad behavior.
All,
I keep going back and forth over the years on which of these two "I have to take them" powers to keep in my build. My old Ice/Storm controller is my first real high level controller I ever had (40+) and I think my 3rd or 4th character to hit level 50, and so she has a lot of history and good memories. With that in mind, I'm planning for a perma-hasten or near-perma-hasten build for her.
I'm not sure which will be better for end-game content, Snow Storm or O2 Boost. Snow Storm will help with AVs and recharge, but for anything less, I go crazy with my other powers and dont really need it. For soloing and for fighting things with end drain, O2 Boost is best. But if I take O2 Boost, some part of me can't tolerate mererly putting 1 end in it.
If I go Snow Storm, it frees up 2 slots to make my perma-hasten easier by putting a LOTG in Hover and a 4th recharge on Hasten. If I go with O2 Boost, I can get numbers I like, but I can only hit perma-hasten if I go for a 5th purple set (the 4 I have for sure are relatively affordable ... kinda).
Anyway, I was just wondering which power you felt would be better between the two. I go back and forth on this all the time.
Help?
Below I'll post the O2 Boost version of my build. Keep in mind that the latest Mids has a bug where the level 41 epic powers often seem to take the wrong sets. I had to put a posi blast in ice blast even tho I would actually put a Decimation there. Also this is the version that, to hit perma-hasten, I'd have to put the expensive ranged damage set in either Ice Blast or Lightning Storm. Bleh. But I'm close to perma without it.
Lewis
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Arctic Moon: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Ice Control
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Block of Ice -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(7), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(7)
Level 1: Gale -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Frostbite -- GravAnch-Immob/Rchg(A), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg(5), GravAnch-Acc/Rchg(5), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx(19), GravAnch-Hold%(43)
Level 4: O2 Boost -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal(43), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(46)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 8: Shiver -- TmpRdns-Acc/Slow(A), TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx(9), TmpRdns-Rng/Slow(9), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(21), TmpRdns-Acc/Dmg/Slow(21)
Level 10: Steamy Mist -- Krma-ResKB(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(11), LkGmblr-Rchg+(11), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 12: Ice Slick -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Speed -- QckFt-EndRdx/RunSpd(A)
Level 16: Freezing Rain -- UndDef-DefDeb/Rchg(A), UndDef-Rchg/EndRdx(17), UndDef-Rchg(17), Achilles-ResDeb%(19)
Level 18: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 20: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(46)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(23), EndMod-I(23)
Level 24: Hurricane -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb(A), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(25), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(25), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(27)
Level 26: Glacier -- UbrkCons-Hold(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(27), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(37), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(37), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(37)
Level 28: Thunder Clap -- Amaze-Stun(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg(29), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg(29), Amaze-Acc/Rchg(34), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun(40)
Level 30: Arctic Air -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(31), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(31), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(31), CoPers-Conf%(34), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 32: Jack Frost -- ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(A), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33)
Level 35: Tornado -- ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(A), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(36), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(39), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Ice Blast -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(42), Posi-Dmg/Rng(42), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 44: Frost Breath -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(45), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Ice Storm -- Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(48), AirB'st-Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Hover -- Srng-Fly(A), Srng-EndRdx/Fly(50), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(50), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 4: Ninja Run
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan