With GR basically allowing Brutes to be heroes, are scrappers obsolete?


bAss_ackwards

 

Posted

I will never roll a brute, because i can't stand the fury system.

Top of that we have now, for the tanker, all the shield + weapon so i've no raison at all to roll a brute.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemeros View Post
I will never roll a brute, because i can't stand the fury system.

Top of that we have now, for the tanker, all the shield + weapon so i've no raison at all to roll a brute.
I think numerical balance is important, but people do seem to forget this aspect of the game. Each of the melee ATs feels different and plays different (I'm even adjusting my Tanker style of playing with the new Bruising effect on the Tier 1 power). Some people are going to like one style more than another. With me, I usually avoided Brutes before as I just don't like being a villain. I like the new moral choice stuff, but villainside was not as enjoyable for me. I also don't seem to like Defenders, whereas some people just love theirs. To each their own, and that does affect what people will play to some extent.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Stalkers fit in the game because they have a radically different playstyle. Comparing them to melee archetypes isn't really the thing to do, because the comparions flows poorly. I think of them as a sort of sawn-off Corruptor. They've made a deal withSatan to swap the 0 on the end of the attack ranges for status protection, and the ability to buff everyone else for the ability to buff themselves. Sure, it's an odd way of thinking of it, but it's much more appropriate for the right Stalker mindset than thinking of them in the Brute/Scrapper 'attack attack attack, wait I'm in the red, heal, attack attack attack'. They really do work better coming from a Corruptor because you're used to the utility-belt style of problem solving instead of just killing it first.

Stalkers are entirely justified as an AT because they feel and play differently. It's not enjoyable for everyone, but no AT is. Complaining your Stalker isn't a brawler is like complaining your Dom isn't a Corruptor.

The question is are they fun for you to play. If so, then fine. If not, play another thing. I love playing my Nin.Regen Stalker because it's an extremely active and demanding combo to play, capable of huge damage and amazing resilience, but only if I use every last tool in my toolbox at exactly the right time. Not a half-hour ago I took down a +3 Longbow Ballista, and it was an incredible challenge, because I have to hit the heals, the regen buffs, the accolades, the MoG, and the handful of inspirations I had at exactly the right time. I spent half the battle a single decent hit away from death, desperately scraping away at the Ballista's health, until I just managed to take him out with a Hail-Mary unhidden AS.

Was it efficient? Hell no. My SS/SD Brute would have just kept putting him on his **** until he went down.

Was it LEET XP? No. I could have ghosted about five missions in the time it took to take out that one Ballista.

Was it fun? Absolutely. Unlike my effectively-immortal WP/DB tank that only starts to have trouble when trying to tank four Mothership Magi alone, I actualy felt challenged. It felt like actually playing some kind of super-assassin against a walking Abrams, desperately using all the skills at your disposal to take down a foe with far more raw power than you'll ever have. Most importantly, it felt right.

I like Stalkers as they are. They don't do super-teamy tank, buff, or AoE. Whoop-de-doo. They offer a unique and fun for many playstyle that can also contribute just fine to any competent team that won't break down and cry if their Inf-per-second falls below their calculated high-end yield.

The only things I'd ask for is that Golden Dragonfly's critical be adjusted, given the uncertain crit from hide was made to balance the non-Hide crit when that was rare and incredible, and for the HP cap to be adjusted a little upwards, or powers like Dull Pain or True Grit be adjusted to make up for not actually giving the intended benefits.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey View Post
Stalkers should be squishy.. they need more damage to balance them. More health would just make them less distinct from the other melee sets.
I'm fine with my stalker now. Anything I suggested is more of a "I wouldn't mind" type of deal.

Mind you, I probably won't make as many Stalkers as I will scrappers (as I'll make more scrappers), and in fact will likely only have the one Stalker (unless I decide to make that Ninjitsu one).


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey View Post
Stalkers should be squishy.. they need more damage to balance them. More health would just make them less distinct from the other melee sets.
This is true.

As it stands, Stalkers suck at the best thing they do: deal burst single target damage.

They need to increase AS damage by 50% in PvP and by 300% in PvE


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I'm fine with my stalker now. Anything I suggested is more of a "I wouldn't mind" type of deal.

Mind you, I probably won't make as many Stalkers as I will scrappers (as I'll make more scrappers), and in fact will likely only have the one Stalker (unless I decide to make that Ninjitsu one).
He was also kind of responding to the HP increase thing I was talking about. And we were talking about increasing the cap, not the base (I think they're probably okay since their increase a few issues back... I actually didn't have a high level Stalker there and hate to think how easy it was for him to lose HP then... now I have enough time to pop a heal or react when my defenses don't save me at least).

Anyway, the reason I mention the cap is that other Stalker players have mentioned it in those forums, and I agree. If you pick up WP or Regen for a secondary, you might as well not bother with health bonuses from IO sets (if you get the accolades as well). Stalkers should all benefit from getting +hp to a certain point, and I don't think giving an appropriate nudge upward to the cap would be out of line.

I think they do pretty good ST damage, too. Though that extra chance to crit from surrounding teammates should probably get bigger... 30 feet is pretty small in game terms... I've noticed a lot of powers like that are pretty cramped, even though it usually behooves ranged players to be more than 30 feet back from their opponents.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
This is true.

As it stands, Stalkers suck at the best thing they do: deal burst single target damage.

They need to increase AS damage by 50% in PvP and by 300% in PvE
Increase AS damage in PvP by 50%? Have you actually fought a stalker in PvP lol?


Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
As it stands, Stalkers suck at the best thing they do: deal burst single target damage.

They need to increase AS damage by 50% in PvP and by 300% in PvE
Uh, you realize that with Build Up this would more than 1/2 of a +2 boss' life in one hit, right?

I'm all for the position that AS takes to long to wind up (as do ranged snipes), but that strikes me as excessive. I'd rather see the DPA improved by shortening the activation+interrupt time.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Uh, you realize that with Build Up this would more than 1/2 of a +2 boss' life in one hit, right?

I'm all for the position that AS takes to long to wind up (as do ranged snipes), but that strikes me as excessive. I'd rather see the DPA improved by shortening the activation+interrupt time.
Being able to use Placate + AS in an attack chain would be nice. As it stands now, it's terrible to do that.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
OP

Not gonna happen...
the 1st char I rolled when GR hit was a Scrapper.... and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one
Nope. You're not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
That'd be cooooool. I'd love to dump the teen rating and get some persistent gore flyin around.
I think this is at least a fourthing.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
Increase AS damage in PvP by 50%? Have you actually fought a stalker in PvP lol?
Yes, and I play one.

Sad thing is even with AS's damage increased by 50%, they still wouldn't be able to kill a PvP Scrapper alone (especially now since Scrappers got Hibernate and Shadow Meld)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Uh, you realize that with Build Up this would more than 1/2 of a +2 boss' life in one hit, right?
A Stalker doing something useful, imagine that!?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
A Stalker doing something useful, imagine that!?
No matter how much I dig powergaming, I can recognize that letting one attack get you more than 1/2-way to victory over a boss-level entity from a no-aggro condition is just dumb. The idea that this is what it takes to be "useful" is not a remotely sensible position, and suggests to me a narrow-minded focus on damage as king.

When it comes down to it, if someone is out to earn the fastest reward/time, I'm well aware that damage is king. Thing is, understand that not everyone plays with that goal, and it's not critical that the devs optimize everything for that goal.

If you want to kill the most stuff per time (and thus level as fast as possible) a Stalker may not be for you. If you are willing to give some of that up for a rather different playstyle, I think Stalkers perform fine in both absolute and relative terms, especially when you compare them to fairly single-target builds in other damage ATs. Before some of their recent AT-wide improvements, I didn't think they were fine. As a whole, I now think they are.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

I could see shorting Assassin's Strike by a little bit, as it is rather difficult to get off on a team and not feel like you're being too slow (I usually fire off a regular attack for a guaranteed crit, unless I'm getting in there before the rest of the team or it seems like the debuffs from AS would help).

But increasing the damage? They kind of already played with that by using a percentage or whatever (forget how it worked) when tweaking the Stalker AT, and it was seen as a bit much against some mobs and not enough against others. I would think having a shorter AS activation would make more sense to help Stalkers a burst AT. Not sure if they really need it, but it'd help more on teams.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
If someone is out to earn the fastest reward/time.
Am I the only one that plays the game to have fun anymore?

Or did I miss the memo saying that it's all about how fast you can get your shinies?

The quoted statement (not meant as an attack btw, Uberguy) is one of the major problems I have with the game these days. Everyone is concerned with how much DPS they do, or how fast they can run this TF to get the most reward possible in the shortest amount of time. The game has gone from a fun pastime to an exercise in efficiency.

"Oh, I'm not going to run that Task Force because I can get more stuff for running this other one twice with 2 different characters."

It shouldn't be about getting more stuff, it should be about having fun doing it. When people start YELLING at their teammates for not being fast enough with something, the point of doing it in the first place has been completely lost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Yes, and I play one.

Sad thing is even with AS's damage increased by 50%, they still wouldn't be able to kill a PvP Scrapper alone (especially now since Scrappers got Hibernate and Shadow Meld)
If you can't kill a Scrapper who uses Hibernate you are doing something very very wrong. Thats like shooting fish in a barrel. You're not supposed to be able to kill a Scrapper with two shots, build up + AS + a heavy hitter will be more than enough to get a Scrapper down to 60% health, that seems more than enough damage to me.


Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Am I the only one that plays the game to have fun anymore?

Or did I miss the memo saying that it's all about how fast you can get your shinies?

The quoted statement (not meant as an attack btw, Uberguy) is one of the major problems I have with the game these days.
I did hope it was clear from the larger context of the post you quoted that I agree with you, at least to a point. I stated that if this was one's goal, then Stalkers are one of actually a fair number of AT/powerset combinations that aren't the optimal choice. IMO, it's OK for some people to play that way, and also for there to be sub-optimal choices for such people. As we often point out here in the Scrapper forum, a lot of us feel there's no such thing as a bad Scrapper powerset combo, but some some are still better than others at killing a lot of stuff in a hurry.

A character should not be so ineffective that it's not enjoyable. At some point, it intrudes on the perceptions of even non-power-gaming types that a particular character is slower to progress than their others. I think the original designs of Controllers and even Tankers are poster children for that situation.

I don't think Stalkers are in that place, at least any more. I think they were close to that place originally, but the performance buffs they got seemed to create a pretty broad improvement in how people perceived them, at least on the forums.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Am I the only one that plays the game to have fun anymore?

Or did I miss the memo saying that it's all about how fast you can get your shinies?

The quoted statement (not meant as an attack btw, Uberguy) is one of the major problems I have with the game these days. Everyone is concerned with how much DPS they do, or how fast they can run this TF to get the most reward possible in the shortest amount of time. The game has gone from a fun pastime to an exercise in efficiency.
I think it's safe to say that your population sample is skewed. A lot of the people who come to AT forums - especially the Scrapper forums - are the kinds of people who >do< have fun squeezing every drop of performance out of their characters and handling TFs in the most efficient and/or impressively destructive manner.

To some people this - the rapid acquisition, speedy execution, efficiency analysis, Mids tinkering, the gradual improvement of their avatars, and, let's face it, getting stuff - >is< fun. I enjoy it, and also roleplaying, which to me is just a different kind of fun.

While I recognize that there are ways to alienate others in the pursuit, is there really anything wrong with that in and of itself?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
If you can't kill a Scrapper who uses Hibernate you are doing something very very wrong. Thats like shooting fish in a barrel. You're not supposed to be able to kill a Scrapper with two shots, build up + AS + a heavy hitter will be more than enough to get a Scrapper down to 60% health, that seems more than enough damage to me.
Yeah, losing 40% hp means nothing to a Scrapper who can just keep spamming recon and dull pain.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Yeah, losing 40% hp means nothing to a Scrapper who can just keep spamming recon and dull pain.
Good thing only one out of 8 secondaries can do that.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
No matter how much I dig powergaming, I can recognize that letting one attack get you more than 1/2-way to victory over a boss-level entity from a no-aggro condition is just dumb. The idea that this is what it takes to be "useful" is not a remotely sensible position, and suggests to me a narrow-minded focus on damage as king.
As opposed to wiping all the minions and leaving all lieuts badly hurt in a +2/x8 spawn with just a couple attacks, like Scrappers can? the total damage dealt by powers such as S-Charge, L-Rod and FSC is much, much greater than a hypothetical AS buffed by +300%


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
Good thing only one out of 8 secondaries can do that.
I did specify "PvP Scrappers"


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
I did specify "PvP Scrappers"
*hides future MA/FIRE PvP Scrapper in shame*

<_<;;


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
As opposed to wiping all the minions and leaving all lieuts badly hurt in a +2/x8 spawn with just a couple attacks, like Scrappers can? the total damage dealt by powers such as S-Charge, L-Rod and FSC is much, much greater than a hypothetical AS buffed by +300%
Let me tell you, my Dark Melee and Martial Arts Scrapper definitely run around mowing down all the minions and LTs with just a couple of attacks all the time.

The reward level of using AoEs is broken in this game. It's been a fact of life here pretty much since day one, especially given that they orignally lacked any target caps. I love that they're broken for most purposes, because having them is a lot of fun, but when it comes to something like this, it's a limiting factor on interpowerset balance. It's not likely that Stalkers will get more AoE. It's not likely that Stalkers will get so much single target damage that they could come close to making up for their lack of AoE given how AoE works. It's not likely that AoE will be rebalanced to the extent that will make a single-target character attractive to reward efficiency pundits.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Yeah, losing 40% hp means nothing to a Scrapper who can just keep spamming recon and dull pain.
You can't spam either of those two, dull pain with a good build is up every 2 mins and recon is up every 20 or so seconds, if in 20 seconds you can't kill a crappy regen than you need to reconsider your tactics.


Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread