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Ok, but this is the Point. They have no Achilles Heel like the Kheldians. Maybe the linked Comparison which shows the characteristics of NW/Fort/Bane/Crab helps a bit:|
Originally Posted by Metatron_NA
Serious answers please, no "The downside is how unbelievably awesome they are!" replies.
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http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...rvBcD6G8uC0vXQ
P.S.
The Numbers Comparison: These are not fully IOed Numbers. For Example it's easy to hit softcap with Banes and Crabs too, if you like.
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SoAs have no specific enemies like hero EATs. I would say their downsides are their relatively low hitpoints since many variants of them are melee oriented (Banes/Widows), less than perfect mez protection (for Banes/Huntsman but not others), mediocre damage (ranged damage Fortunata) and lack of DDR (defense debuff resistance). |
Originally Posted by Metatron_NA
Quick question: I tried Warshades and Peacebringers many times, never really developed a liking for them. Are Spiders/Crabs equally annoying, as the villain VEAT? What is the 'downside' to playing a Villain VEAT? (Or technically, a VEAT - Villain VEAT is repetitive.) Do VEATs populate your missions with nemeses, the way Kheldians bring in Quantum thingys into missions?
Serious answers please, no "The downside is how unbelievably awesome they are!" replies. Thanks. |
They have many, many positives however. Mez protection and defense if you go play a ranged/control oriented build like a Fortunata. Easy to soft cap defense early in your career if you go Widow. Mez protection and excellent ranged defense if you go Huntsman. Terrific AoE and defense/resistance if you go Crab. In addition to that they have great leadership buffs (particularly TT: Maneuvers) and buffs like Mind Link which are in great demand on teams.
A very solid AT that does good to excellent damage, have good to excellent defenses, mez protection and very few disadvantages that can be mitigated pretty easily.
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Quick answer: The only downside is that you cannot choose Crab or Bane right off the bat for Spiders and have to work through 23 levels before you're given an instant respec at 24 so that you can choose Crab or Bane powers.|
Originally Posted by Metatron_NA
Quick question: I tried Warshades and Peacebringers many times, never really developed a liking for them. Are Spiders/Crabs equally annoying, as the villain VEAT? What is the 'downside' to playing a Villain VEAT? (Or technically, a VEAT - Villain VEAT is repetitive.) Do VEATs populate your missions with nemeses, the way Kheldians bring in Quantum thingys into missions?
Serious answers please, no "The downside is how unbelievably awesome they are!" replies. Thanks. |
Long answer: VEAT's are complex in the same way that Kheldians are on a BUILD level, but not as annoying to play since their capabilities don't change the second the team alters to replace a tank with a blaster. They have fewer secondary powers to choose from than Kheldians, but all three branches of the Spider EAT have FULL primary attack powers.
If you want tons of AoE damage go Crab and wreak havoc. If not go Bane and be a mini-stalker. Either way you can build yourself up to Tanker/Brute levels of mitigation through defense slotting, and Alignment Merits make getting the needed sets MUCH easier.
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This is yet to be determined, but early feedback suggests that it's simply easier to buy stuff from the market than grind A-merits. In fact, using A-merits to buy something valuable, selling it and using the profits to buy something you want is probably the more optimal route.
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Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Alignment Merits make getting the needed sets MUCH easier.
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Which simply proves the point that it is easier to complete sets with a-merits.... whether you are using them for inf or for recipes
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
This is yet to be determined, but early feedback suggests that it's simply easier to buy stuff from the market than grind A-merits. In fact, using A-merits to buy something valuable, selling it and using the profits to buy something you want is probably the more optimal route.
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Relatively squishy in the early goings (from both soldier and widow) in my experience leveling them up.|
Originally Posted by Metatron_NA
Quick question: I tried Warshades and Peacebringers many times, never really developed a liking for them. Are Spiders/Crabs equally annoying, as the villain VEAT? What is the 'downside' to playing a Villain VEAT? (Or technically, a VEAT - Villain VEAT is repetitive.) Do VEATs populate your missions with nemeses, the way Kheldians bring in Quantum thingys into missions?
Serious answers please, no "The downside is how unbelievably awesome they are!" replies. Thanks. |
More so for widows in my opinion, because they were melee from 1-24 whereas soldiers can shoot away at range.
Soldiers have no defense debuff resistance at all, while widows have minimal.
As a bane spider, a good part of my defenses came from pool aoe immobilize and Crowd Control. I played like a blapper with much better defenses.
I had the safest leveling time as fortunata, from all of my CoX toons. Think mind/psy dominator with vastly superior defenses and leadership buffs but poorer controls.
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Should have clarified. I meant it's optimal compared to just buying a recipe outright with A-merits. I don't think it's more optimal than simply marketeering, building wealth and then buying what you want, completely ignoring the A-merit system.
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Originally Posted by Death_Badger
Which simply proves the point that it is easier to complete sets with a-merits.... whether you are using them for inf or for recipes
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Same here. I tried to level a PB/WS and I gave up 3 times at lvl 14. lol |
Originally Posted by Metatron_NA
Quick question: I tried Warshades and Peacebringers many times, never really developed a liking for them. Are Spiders/Crabs equally annoying, as the villain VEAT? What is the 'downside' to playing a Villain VEAT? (Or technically, a VEAT - Villain VEAT is repetitive.) Do VEATs populate your missions with nemeses, the way Kheldians bring in Quantum thingys into missions?
Serious answers please, no "The downside is how unbelievably awesome they are!" replies. Thanks. |
Oh, no. SoA are WAYYYYYYY better than PB/WS. I don't care what people say. I have eyes and when I team with WS/PB, I am just never impressed. WS is better but still not impressed.
SoA builds are very very forgiving. As long as you take Leaderships, your SoA will be very effective on a team.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
All the above downsides are correct, and I would endurance can be a problem, but that can mitigated with slotting and io sets. Khelds are a pita. They're still broken. I loath the idea that you have to be in tank or blaster form to be effective and in human form team with the perfect set of AT's. I would say make the squid form your ranged dps form, and give them more abilities, make the lobster a tank form and the human form either a blapper type of form or a scrapper form with couple of ranged attacks and many hth attacks with mez and kb protection. Do the branching thing.
One note is that Widows have only a little defense debuff resistance, whereas most Spiders have literally none. They suffer cascading defense failure worse than any other resilient AT.
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Urrgh, no. I like being able to flit from Nova to Dwarf if I'm getting too much aggro or need to taunt some enemies off a fellow squishy, as well as being able to use a form power for a buff and then switch to another form to fire off powers to leverage it. The idea that my WS is broken is laughable.|
Originally Posted by dmcfarland907
All the above downsides are correct, and I would endurance can be a problem, but that can mitigated with slotting and io sets. Khelds are a pita. They're still broken. I loath the idea that you have to be in tank or blaster form to be effective and in human form team with the perfect set of AT's. I would say make the squid form your ranged dps form, and give them more abilities, make the lobster a tank form and the human form either a blapper type of form or a scrapper form with couple of ranged attacks and many hth attacks with mez and kb protection. Do the branching thing.
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Changing Khelds so substantially would be a horrible idea. If you don't like how they play then don't play them and maybe suggest a new EAT which works as you'd like instead.
I'd agree with the people who said the worst aspect of SoAs is having to wait 24 levels before you can actually play the AT you wanted rather than a rather bog-standard pseudo-scrapper / pseudo-corrupter.
[QUOTE=Fury Flechette;3141369]SoAs have no specific enemies like hero EATs. I would say their downsides are their relatively low hitpoints [QUOTE]
Still more HP than a Stalker...
1606.4 max compared to 2409.5 max, as per paragonwiki.
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Max != usual.|
Originally Posted by beyeajus
Still more HP than a Stalker...
1606.4 max compared to 2409.5 max, as per paragonwiki. |
SoAs do have a higher potential HP, probably to keep them in line with Khelds, but it's not the norm.
Honestly, in my eyes the VEAT's are alike in the HEAT's sense that they are a mixture of certain AT's. It just seems to have been executed a lot better with VEAT's due to the flexibility, with Kheld's you have all the form switching and watching out for that Quantum in the background.
The main downside is the lower hit points and perhaps some low level problems in the run up to 24 but they can sometimes surpass what they are based off of. Looking at the Spreadsheet from Atago says it all to me really.
No endurance management power (do VEATs get hero epics with GR ? haven't checked yet, if so, then it would be a non-issue) ; low max HP for widows/banes, no DDR for banes/crabs.
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The Villain Epic ATs are, IMO, extremely well designed and have very few downsides. They are there though and they are different for each branch:|
Originally Posted by Metatron_NA
Quick question: I tried Warshades and Peacebringers many times, never really developed a liking for them. Are Spiders/Crabs equally annoying, as the villain VEAT? What is the 'downside' to playing a Villain VEAT? (Or technically, a VEAT - Villain VEAT is repetitive.) Do VEATs populate your missions with nemeses, the way Kheldians bring in Quantum thingys into missions?
Serious answers please, no "The downside is how unbelievably awesome they are!" replies. Thanks. |
Bane Spiders - The squishiest of the lot. Banes have significantly less mez protection than the other three (at most 6 MAG protection - no KB protection) and less mitigation. Their armor upgrade is very good, better than the Crabs, but the Crab gets the yummy Fortification and Serum.
Banes ranged ST and AoE potential in their attack set (as opposed to the huntsman set which they can dip into) is very poor. Taking some Huntsman powers helps a lot, but it also forces redraw.
Banes have very good melee damage and make a credible Stalker.
Crab Spiders - Very nice. The only downsides I would suggest that Crabs have is that their ST damage at ranged is limited unless, like the Banes, you take the gun attacks. However, redraw isn't as much of a problem. Also you get Gloom as an PPP so that takes care of the problem too.
Crabs have no KB protection, but that hole is easily filled. Crabs have less defense than the other VEATs but they have substantially more resistance.
Crabs are the sole VEATs to have a heal with their Dull Pain clone which also helps with the HP problem that all VEATs have to some extent. It's very difficult to say that Crabs have ANY downsides really.
Night Widows and Fortunatas - Like Crabs, very strong characters these girls (I do not acknowledge male widows!
) They're only downsides IMO are the lack of a heal and low HP. Otherwise they are awesome.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
How does a Fortunata compare to a mind/psy dominator?
Atago can I have your Huntsman Foxtrot-F build 
The lack of set debuff resistance is a major flaw.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Honestly, Kheldians don't have as high an HP cap as they need, and SoA have more than they need. Although with Serum or the Bane Armor they can get it to typical meleer levels.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Max != usual.
SoAs do have a higher potential HP, probably to keep them in line with Khelds, but it's not the norm. |
A Kheldian in Dwarf form gets +75% hit points, though. That's a pretty big number.
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Not enough things to kill.
| What are the downsides to SoA's? |
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Very similar, but the Dominator will be better at control, but have significantly less survivability. The Fortunata will have more team friendly powers but also be have a much tighter build (i19 might alleviate that).
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Originally Posted by Void Spirit
How does a Fortunata compare to a mind/psy dominator?
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quick question: I tried Warshades and Peacebringers many times, never really developed a liking for them. Are Spiders/Crabs equally annoying, as the villain VEAT? What is the 'downside' to playing a Villain VEAT? (Or technically, a VEAT - Villain VEAT is repetitive.) Do VEATs populate your missions with nemeses, the way Kheldians bring in Quantum thingys into missions?
Serious answers please, no "The downside is how unbelievably awesome they are!" replies.
Thanks.
For Great Justice!