I'm guessing the devs won't set out to do anything that will allow a player to "shortcut" content. Personally, I think the only thing we really need to balance out the epic sets system would be Heroic PPPs.
My 2 cents.
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This. I really do hope they do Hero patron arcs/powers at some point.
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Originally Posted by Genesis Man
I'm guessing the devs won't set out to do anything that will allow a player to "shortcut" content. Personally, I think the only thing we really need to balance out the epic sets system would be Heroic PPPs.
My 2 cents. |
My Corner of DeviantART
The Queen's Menagerie
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Works for me - Although there aren't obvious choices for a set of Hero Patrons... or an in game reason why Heroes need to declare themselves behind character X or Y...|
Originally Posted by Genesis Man
I'm guessing the devs won't set out to do anything that will allow a player to "shortcut" content. Personally, I think the only thing we really need to balance out the epic sets system would be Heroic PPPs.
My 2 cents. |
Hmm... much work would need to be done for these, I foresee.
That said, it still won't be the same pools. These Hero PPP would be in the themes of whatever characters are chosen to be the Patrons.
As such, anyone who wants to use the specific powers from existing PPPs will still need to suck it up and give their characters a walk on the dark side.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Ideal Patrons?
Back Alley Brawler
Positron
War Witch
Synapse
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/signed. Have actually wanted it (and villain APPs) since PPPs came out. |
Originally Posted by Goblin_Queen
This. I really do hope they do Hero patron arcs/powers at some point.
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(While we're at it, add some middle-of-the-road PPPs - Vanguard, Ouroboros and Midnighter, perhaps.)
Have you guys actually given any thought to what would actually be IN those power sets, or are you just blindly requesting it because parity is a cool-sounding word? All the signature heroes have powersets that we already have access to. The only exception is Statesman, and I don't think Zeus is gonna be empowering other mortals with his command of thunder and lightning any time soon.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Positron has Overcharge (Positron's power is like EA's Overload, but instead of having a crash it includes +Rech and +Dam[Smashing/Energy]).|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Have you guys actually given any thought to what would actually be IN those power sets, or are you just blindly requesting it because parity is a cool-sounding word? All the signature heroes have powersets that we already have access to. The only exception is Statesman, and I don't think Zeus is gonna be empowering other mortals with his command of thunder and lightning any time soon.
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Back Alley Brawler has Back Alley Power Punch (Similar to Whirling Hands, but with KB instead of stun).
Manticore has Teleport Arrow (teleport + damage, like Shield Charge and Lightning Rod).
Synapse has Synaptic Strike (I believe this is Flurry with Smash/Energy instead of just Smash).
The other members of the Freedom Phalanx, besides Statesman, don't have powers unavailable to players. I think the only power used by the Vindicators which isn't either available to players or is just a renamed/recolored player power is Woodsman's Stump Toss.
Memphis Bill also suggested an alternative of Hero organizations earlier (Vanguard, Ouroboros, and Midnighters in his post, but it could be expanded). The Midnighters are basically just reskinned Circle of Thorns, and we've really only seen one Mender of Ouroboros fight (SS/Inv, though I think we can assume what Twilight's Son is capable of)... but Vanguard has a bunch of stuff to offer.
Remember too, that the PPPs aren't all unique powers:
- Blaster/Mastermind Leviathan Mastery: Knockout Blow
- Controller/Dominator/Corruptor/Defender/Scrapper/Stalker Leviathan Mastery: Hibernate
- Blaster/Scrapper/Stalker Mace Mastery: Summon Spiderlings
- Corruptor/Defender Mace Mastery: Summon Disruptor (1 Disruptor; Training and Gadgets > Call Reinforcements summons 2 Disruptors)
- Brute/Tanker/Corruptor/Defender Mace Mastery: Focused Accuracy
- Mastermind Mace Mastery: Power Boost
- Arachnos Soldier/Arachnos Widow/Brute/Tanker/Blaster/Mastermind Mu Mastery: Electrifying Fences (AoE Electric Fence)
- Arachnos Soldier/Arachnos Widow/Brute/Tanker/Controller/Dominator/Scarpper/Stalker Mu Mastery: Ball Lightning
- Blaster/Controller/Dominator/Corruptor/Defender/Mastermind Mu Mastery: Charged Armor
- Controller/Dominator/Corruptor/Defender Mu Mastery: Power Sink
- Corruptor/Defender Mu Mastery: Conserve Power
- Mastermind Mu Mastery: Thunder Strike
- Scrapper/Stalker Mu Mastery: Mu Bolts (Lightning Bolt)
- Scrapper/Stalker Mu Mastery: Zapp
- Arachnos Soldier/Arachnos Widow/Brute/Tanker Soul Mastery: Gloom
- Arachnos Soldier/Arachnos Widow/Brute/Tanker/Blaster/Mastermind Soul Mastery: Soul Tentacles (Tenebrous Tentacles)
- Arachnos Soldier/Arachnos Widow/Brute/Tanker Soul Mastery: Darkest Night
- Blaster/Mastermind Soul Mastery: Night Fall
- Blaster/Mastermind/Controller/Dominator/Corruptor/Defender Soul Mastery: Dark Embrace
- Blaster/Mastermind Soul Mastery: Oppressive Gloom
- Controller/Dominator Soul Mastery: Dark Consumption
- Controller/Dominator/Corruptor/Defender Soul Mastery: Soul Drain
- Corruptor/Defender Soul Mastery: Power Boost
- Scrapper/Stalker Soul Mastery: Dark Blast
- Scrapper/Stalker Soul Mastery: Moonbeam
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
That's just splitting hairs. None of the powers you listed are truly special other than the fact that we can't actually grab those specific powers. Back Alley Power Punch is just an Energy Melee attack, Synaptic Strike is just an Electricity Manipulation melee power, Teleport Arrow is just a gussied-up Aimed Shot, etc, etc.
As for the Patron Pools, the names and effects of the powers might be the same as elsewhere, but they're specially in canon the result of Arachnos tech or magic.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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I see you complaining about what would be the most unpopular of the four I listed, and yet no attempt to rebut Teleport Arrow. Hammer of Justice and Zeus' Lightning may be more powerful and visually stunning, but even now Teleport Arrow is far more unique than either of them, being one of three similar powers in the game (teleport+damage, vs. a simple AoE).|
Originally Posted by Vanden
That's just splitting hairs. None of the powers you listed are truly special other than the fact that we can't actually grab them. For example, Synapse needed more melee attacks and Electric Melee wasn't out yet, so they just slapped an electric effect on Flurry and called it a day.
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Pretend the PPPs don't exist. What's special about Spirit Shark or Water Spout other than the fact that we can't actually grab them? We already have ranged attacks which deal lethal damage and knockdown, and we already have Tornado! (And, more generally, pets which we can't control and which do knockback.)
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Originally Posted by Vanden
As for the Patron Pools, the names of the powers might be the same as elsewhere, but they're specially in canon the result of Arachnos tech or Magic.
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On the other hand, Black Scorpion does have a bunch of Super Strength powers, which is where Knockout Blow comes from...
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Read the post again, I edited it to be more clear. (Apparently while you were typing up your reply.)|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I see you complaining about what would be the most unpopular of the four I listed, and yet no attempt to rebut Teleport Arrow. Hammer of Justice and Zeus' Lightning may be more powerful and visually stunning, but even now Teleport Arrow is far more unique than either of them, being one of three similar powers in the game (teleport+damage, vs. a simple AoE).
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Pretend the PPPs don't exist. What's special about Spirit Shark or Water Spout other than the fact that we can't actually grab them? We already have ranged attacks which deal lethal damage and knockdown, and we already have Tornado! (And, more generally, pets which we can't control and which do knockback.)
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
So tell me, what does Knockout Blow have to do with either Mako (the Patron) or the Leviathan (the pool's namesake)?
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Heck, Black Scorpion doesn't even have a single power from Mace Mastery.On the other hand, Black Scorpion does have a bunch of Super Strength powers, which is where Knockout Blow comes from...
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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But Water Spout is just a gussied up Tornado. Your words, not mine.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
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So far, your only argument against Hero PPPs is that the Villain PPP powers are explained in canon, while powers displayed by signature heroes are just modifications to existing player powers.
...
Let's go over the points one by one:
- Arachnos lieutenants exhibit modifications of existing player powers.
- Arachnos lieutenants grant access to additonal powers (many of which are not powers used by the lieutenant himself).
- These powers have some explanation in the game story, which is generally tied somehow to the lieutenant in question.
- The in-game explanation is sometimes a bit weak, because the mechanics and balance are more important than the story.
- Signature heroes exihibit modifications of existing player powers.
- We have a suggestion that signature heroes grant access to additional powers (many of which would not be powers used by the hero himself).
- This is a bad suggestion, because the signature heroes' powers are just modified versions of player powers.
- ... ... ... what, I don't even...
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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A gussied-up Tornado that explicitly channels the power of the Leviathan. When the game comes out and says Manticore's Teleport Arrow is him calling upon the power of Rifticus, patron saint of Teleportation, and not just Manticore having a clever arrow that we don't get in the Archery set, we'll talk. Well, I guess we're talking now, but you know what I mean.| But Water Spout is just a gussied up Tornado. Your words, not mine. |
I think you're intentionally missing the point if you can't see the difference between the two. Signature villains have, as a core to their design, plot-important powers that they can teach you with their Patron Pools. Signature Heroes have the same powers as players, plus some unique VFX and powers to make them seem special. There is no plot reason that Synapse can do an electric flurry or that Back Alley Brawler can do an Energy Transfer with knockback, it's just so they present a visually unique challenge. However, there are plot reasons that Ghost Widow can debilitate you with the souls of her enemies and Mako can vomit bile all over you.
And this WHOLE THING is a pointless derailment of this thread's actual purpose, which was to suggest a way for a hero to unlock a patron pool without having to go through the tedious and potentially RP-breaking process of becoming a full villain and turning back to full hero, which only one guy didn't even disagree with, just noncommitally said probably wouldn't happen because of some nebulous reason that he thinks he knows what the devs are thinking.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
One more thing: I'm not saying that the devs COULDN'T come up with powers that the signature heroes could teach you, I'm saying that there's no reason to be looking at the signature heroes and going "Man, I wanna do what they can do," because except for a very few superficial instances, you already can.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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So Black Scorpion is allowed to use the technology of his power suit and this gives us a storyline reason for him to give you the technology of the Arachnos mace (and yet somehow none of the other patrons can hand you a mace or an access code to the armory, and you're certainly not going to the guy who invented the thing, since BS is an utter moron)...|
Originally Posted by Vanden
A gussied-up Tornado that explicitly channels the power of the Leviathan. When the game comes out and says Manticore's Teleport Arrow is him calling upon the power of Rifticus, patron saint of Teleportation, and not just Manticore having a clever arrow that we don't get in the Archery set, we'll talk.
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... but Manticore isn't allowed to show you how he hacked into the medical teleport system to make his teleporting arrow (this is exactly how it was explained in the CoH comic)?
Edit: Of course, now a single patron arc unlocks all of the patron pools, so you certainly could pass it off as Mako handing you his keycard to the armory. But then that doesn't explain how paling around with Black Scorpion teaches you how to rip a soul out of someone's body like Ghost Widow.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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And in Exchange maybe an SF for each Villain NPC? camaaaaan....
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Originally Posted by Goblin_Queen
This. I really do hope they do Hero patron arcs/powers at some point.
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The RP argument doesn't hold much water, since as you say:|
Originally Posted by Vanden
And this WHOLE THING is a pointless derailment of this thread's actual purpose, which was to suggest a way for a hero to unlock a patron pool without having to go through the tedious and potentially RP-breaking process of becoming a full villain and turning back to full hero, which only one guy didn't even disagree with, just noncommitally said probably wouldn't happen because of some nebulous reason that he thinks he knows what the devs are thinking.
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| As for the Patron Pools, the names and effects of the powers might be the same as elsewhere, but they're specially in canon the result of Arachnos tech or magic. |
Surely, if characters want to have the bitter fruits of evil, they should be prepared to sow the seeds of evil to get it?
If you can just get the powers indendantly, then it makes the Villains look even more like chumps for sucking up to the Patrons, when they could have just got the powers themselves.
So, adding the arc to unlock them for Heroes without having to go red side would mainly just be for parity's sake (which is a cool-sounding word)
Always remember, we were Heroes.
There's nothing inherently evil about the powers themselves. Yes, even Soul Mastery.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Hence:|
Originally Posted by Vanden
There's nothing inherently evil about the powers themselves. Yes, even Soul Mastery.
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The RP argument doesn't hold much water
EDIT: I would be FINE with them adding Heroic PPPs. To balance out both sides. Other than that the current situation is fine as is.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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What is this, backwards day? The "RP argument" is that people won't want to do villainous things to get their heroes Patron pools. How does that become compromised if the patron pools aren't necessarily evil?
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Hence:
The RP argument doesn't hold much water EDIT: I would be FINE with them adding Heroic PPPs. To balance out both sides. Other than that the current situation is fine as is. |
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Oh I should have explained.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
What is this, backwards day? The "RP argument" is that people won't want to do villainous things to get their heroes Patron pools. How does that become compromised if the patron pools aren't necessarily evil?
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I meant that RP really doesn't matter, since you can RP the powers to be for any purpose.
EDIT: Was taking that statement for MY OWN purposes.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Being aggressive or condescending towards people who agree with you that having the sets would be nice - including those who, like me, have made similar suggestions (and laid out pool ideas) in the past - is really not a way to gather support. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
Have you guys actually given any thought to what would actually be IN those power sets, or are you just blindly requesting it because parity is a cool-sounding word?
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And I have a history of disliking "parity" as an excuse for adding anything. I argued against it for the level 50 VEAT unlock, for instance, and yet that's the exact reason they *were* 50 from introduction to this issue.
Why do I want these sets (as well as some nice "grey" sets like I mentioned - Ouro, Vanguard, and Midnighter?) Because I *like* the idea. I like the possibility of content that has you becoming part of the "inner circle" - even if, for gameplay reasons, it unlocks everything else. Much the same as why I like Epic ATs as we have them - it gives the opportunity to give a laserlike focus on a group or bit of lore (even if the opportunity is wasted, like in the VEAT arcs.)
What's this? Blueside being disadvantaged in power pools in favour of Red?
This isn't unfair. This is JUSTICE.
Really, though, decent idea, but it probably won't happen. It took a couple of years for us to convince the developers that we shouldn't be permanently stuck with one PPP only, because they thought it was 'World-appropriate'. You're not going to knock this one over this easily.
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Would be cool, should such happen. |
Originally Posted by Goblin_Queen
I really do hope they do Hero patron arcs/powers at some point.
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Heck I'd personally like more patron options generally.
Heroes: The Surviving Seven (why seven when villains only have four? Will explain in a moment), the Freedom Phalanx minus Statesman.
Open to both: Vanguard, Oroborous, Midnighters.
New Villain Patrons!: Dr Aeon, Televsion (you can't have one without the other now they're at war with each other) and Arbiter Daos (for a 'natural' more brawly themed patron choice).
Now that all characters have access to both types of epic pool, the need to unlock patron pools is more annoying than ever. While for villains it's not so bad, a hero has to side switch completely to villain, run an arc, and then, if he doesn't actually WANT to be a villain, side switch back to hero. That's 4 alignment missions that could otherwise be earning merits, not to mention it's time-consuming and needs to be done well ahead of time to in order to have the PPPs unlocked when you can use them. Plus, RPers will hate having to do villainly things on their heroes.
So what I'm suggesting is to have arcs to unlock them heroside. Add a Longbow researcher who believes in "know your enemy." He'll send you on arcs to research and eventually unlock the powers of the four patrons. Unlike the villainside patron arcs, you'd have to run an arc for each pool, and you wouldn't get a respec, so villains would still have an advantage there.
I think this would make unlocking PPPs for heroes much less of a bummer.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.