1: Even if we take it as read that FA is now broken, it's nowhere near as broken as it was.
2: The set is still squishier and brings less offensive power than the other 'offensive' set, namely SD.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
I highly doubt that. Got some numbers to back it up?
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
I'm afraid I can't post exact numbers as I don't have access to Mids or the game at the moment.
However, FA was broken because you could herd entire maps, Burn didn't have a target cap, stuff stacked so you could fit aforementioned entire maps into its radius, you could have multiple Burn patches out and ED and GDN weren't in place so FA was tough enough to tank all those mobs while they melted.
SD is tougher on SOs (especially on Tankers) because with basic slotting you can get 1 small purple insp away from the softcap for all 3 positions. No single inspiration brings a FA tank to 90% mitigation of almost all incoming damage. Add into that the nature of defense means all the debuffs attached to various attacks miss the SD tanker, whereas the FA will get hit for less but have to take all the debuffs on the chin.
With IOs, you can softcap to all three positions all the time and the numbers have already been done (by Frosticus in the Scrapper forums, I believe) to show that SC far outdamages BA and/or Burn. In fact, IIRC he showed SC outdamaged them even if he worked with unrealistic assumptions like BA always hitting its target cap of foes.
AAO and SC are just that good.
WP, SD and DA all attest to how powerful layered defenses are. Pure resists and a big heal just isn't as tough as defenses, +hp and +resists. Plus the mitigation in KDing an entire spawn with SC.
I can give you numbers once I've got access to Mids again. Where are your numbers to back up your original statement? I would love to be proven wrong on this, I'd feel a lot better about my /FA Brute 
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Eh, you do have a point there; but right now, I'm just enjoying my Fire/SS/Pyre way too much to really care at the moment. |
Originally Posted by Silas
I'm afraid I can't post exact numbers as I don't have access to Mids or the game at the moment.
However, FA was broken because you could herd entire maps, Burn didn't have a target cap, stuff stacked so you could fit aforementioned entire maps into its radius, you could have multiple Burn patches out and ED and GDN weren't in place so FA was tough enough to tank all those mobs while they melted. SD is tougher on SOs (especially on Tankers) because with basic slotting you can get 1 small purple insp away from the softcap for all 3 positions. No single inspiration brings a FA tank to 90% mitigation almost all incoming damage. Add into that the nature of defense means all the debuffs attached to various attacks miss the SD tanker, whereas the FA will get hit for less but have to take all the debuffs on the chin. With IOs, you can softcap to all three positions all the time and the numbers have already been done (by Frosticus, I believe) to show that SC far outdamages BA and/or Burn. In fact, IIRC he showed SC outdamaged them even if he worked with unrealistic assumptions like BA always hitting its target cap of foes. AAO and SC are just that good. WP, SD and DA all attest to how powerful layered defenses are. Pure resists and a big heal just isn't as tough as defenses, +hp and +resists. Plus the mitigation in KDing an entire spawn with SC. I can give you numbers once I've got access to Mids again. Where are your numbers to back up your original statement? I would love to be proven wrong on this, I'd feel a lot better about my /FA Brute |
Fiery Embrace+Rage+Burn+Footstomp = Destruction!
Seriously, ALL even conned minions and LTs dead within approximately two seconds is just awe-inspiring. My only gripe with the set now is the recharge/duration of Fiery Embrace; tweak that and I'll never say another bad thing about FA/ again...hopefully.
I've been waiting almost 12 long issues to say this...BURN IS BACK!
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
Quote:
Oh, don't get me wrong. I love the changes and am very happy with them.|
Originally Posted by Rowdy
Eh, you do have a point there; but right now, I'm just enjoying my Fire/SS/Pyre way too much to really care at the moment.
Fiery Embrace+Rage+Burn+Footstomp = Destruction! Seriously, ALL even conned minions and LTs dead within approximately two seconds is just awe-inspiring. My only gripe with the set now is the recharge/duration of Fiery Embrace; tweak that and I'll never say another bad thing about FA/ again...hopefully. I've been waiting almost 12 long issues to say this...BURN IS BACK! |
I was just contesting the assertion that FA is somehow broken again.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Burn is now useful, FE is now useful to those that didn't take FM , neither helps you tank. The only real bonus I am liking is the change to consume. That was a smart change!
Combat Kangaroos, Justice Server. First 50's
Jirra Roo Plant/Storm/Stone/Musculature Controller
Combat Kangaroo Rifle/Energy/Mace/Spiritual Blaster
Kung Fu Kangaroo Martial Arts/Reflexes/Body/Spiritual Scrapper
Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker
I do know that my SS/FA Brute has armour made of wet paper.
Quote:
Well, the whole concept behind FA is that the amount of damage that you put out was your form of tanking. I mean, if everything is dead, you've essentially done your job, which is to protect the squishies. Problem with that was, they nerfed burn AND introduced ED, thereby eliminating FA's primary source of damage and reducing our resistances quite a bit. The problem only got worse when Shields was introduced to the game as it took FA's place as "The Offensive Set," and did so with absolute ease. |
Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
Burn is now useful, FE is now useful to those that didn't take FM , neither helps you tank. The only real bonus I am liking is the change to consume. That was a smart change!
|
Which brings us back to your quote. The idea behind FE and Burn ARE Fiery Armor's source of tanking. Kill them, before they kill the squishies, and ultimately, you.
Imo, it's back in the race against Shields in being the better "Offensive Set," but Shields has both impressive survivability and damage while FA, in many people's eyes, can only claim the latter of the two; outside of IOs of course.
P.S. Sorry for the history lesson.
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
Btw, I was looking through a couple of Castles comments during c/b and I remembered this one, thought I'd share:
Quote:
|
Tanker Fiery Embrace Experiment Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Ace, that is awesome. Might have to keep that one somewhere.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Yup, I agree with you completely. Thought Vanden was joking in the OP, but his response makes me not as sure. Anyway, having defense does help Shields out quite a bit, though Shields will have less consistent performance than Fiery Aura (defense being what it is, a resistance based set is easier to know how it will perform all the time).|
Originally Posted by Silas
Oh, don't get me wrong. I love the changes and am very happy with them.
I was just contesting the assertion that FA is somehow broken again. |
Fiery Aura at least is in competition for offense, whereas its lower defensive capability was not offset enough by its offensive capabilities before. I still think it should get some KB protection, but... I'll take what we're getting.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I WAS joking in the OP. It was hyperbole. When Silas responded I thought he was referring purely to offensive power, hence my response.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I still think it should ge tsome KB protection, but... I'll take what we're getting.
|
If FA is to get anymore attention, I would want TP to be turned into something generally thought of as useful. I don't care about the KB hole because there are ways to address it without skipping a beat in whatever you want your build to do.
Somehow I feel the Brute/Tanker issues aren't completely settled with Castle, so if he revisits melee in i19 c/b it will be interesting to see what he's willing to contemplate.
Quote:
Well, I do think Fiery Aura might need some resistance to resist debuffs. That and Healing Flames are its only mitigation, so for one Longbow grenade to take off HALF of my S/L resistance is ridiculous (and yes, I have thought it was ridiculous on my "villain" ATs as well). Not sure if Temperature Protection is a place to drop it, or put some in both shields, or what. TP isn't that bad now, though. You get hit by debuffs a lot with Fiery Aura, so the slow resists from TP are most welcome. We have end recovery resists with Consume now, so I think the only things that might be nice are resist to resist debuffs, and possibly defense (though I've said elsewhere that might be nice for all Tanks and Brutes to get inherently, at least a little).
|
Originally Posted by Acemace
If FA is to get anymore attention, I would want TP to be turned into something generally thought of as useful. I don't care about the KB hole because there are ways to address it without skipping a beat in whatever you want your build to do.
Somehow I feel the Brute/Tanker issues aren't completely settled with Castle, so if he revisits melee in i19 c/b it will be interesting to see what he's willing to contemplate. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
FA HAS resist debuff protection; if you have resist buffs, you have resist debuff protection. It's just how the math works out.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Probably a stupid idea, but if there is still a question about FA not doing enough damage to offset its squishiness, how game-breaking would it be to add small amounts of Damage to Fire Shield and Plasma Shields? I mean, you are still on fire when you use them, yet they don't burn, which seems a little odd.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Vanden
FA HAS resist debuff protection; if you have resist buffs, you have resist debuff protection. It's just how the math works out.
|
If that's so, those debuffs are extremely out of whack, or the resist to the debuff is not strong enough. That -res patch they tossed out dropped my resists by half last night.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Some resistance debuffs are irresistible. As I recall, that includes a lot of what longbow likes to throw out. A special resistance debuff protection wouldn't matter in that instance, and every other resistance debuff is innately resisted in proportion to whatever your resist values are.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
If that's so, those debuffs are extremely out of whack, or the resist to the debuff is not strong enough. That -res patch they tossed out dropped my resists by half last night.
|
Here's an invulnerability visual aid for resistance debuffs; pardon the uncreative names.
Quote:
You thought I was referring purely to offensive power when in my first response I made two points and one of them was about FAs relative squishiness?|
Originally Posted by Vanden
I WAS joking in the OP. It was hyperbole. When Silas responded I thought he was referring purely to offensive power, hence my response.
|
Okay.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Fire is to me without a doubt king of damage again. It blows my purpled Shield/SS/Pyre out of the water. Sadly it even blows my S/L soft capped 80% recharge Fire/Mental/Ice *Blaster* out of the water for kill speed... which is concerning. Its still very squishy compared to my other tanks and even to some of my scrappers, but I guess that is okay since it out damages them now?
It really makes me wonder how crazy a fire scrapper could be if you could get the survivability up there. (the fire tank runs like 33% S/L/Melee atm)
I don't suppose anyone has done a dps comparo for FA tanks pre/post FE changes?
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Quote:
I thought we both understood that there wasn't even a comparison defensively between FA and SD, making discussing it pointless, and you had just mentioned defense as a matter of course.
|
Originally Posted by Silas
You thought I was referring purely to offensive power when in my first response I made two points and one of them was about FAs relative squishiness?
Okay. |
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
Right.
|
Originally Posted by Vanden
I thought we both understood that there wasn't even a comparison defensively between FA and SD, making discussing it pointless, and you had just mentioned defense as a matter of course.
|
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Castle.|
Originally Posted by abnormal_joe
I don't suppose anyone has done a dps comparo for FA tanks pre/post FE changes?
|
Take the following example:
You are a level 40 Tanker and have Greater Fire Sword 3 slotted with SO's (95% for easier math), you hit Build Up, Fiery Embrace and happen to have a Damage Inspiration running for another 25% damage bonus.
Old damage:
Lethal: 154.74 (1*(1+0.95+0.8+0.8+0.25)=3.8*table lookup)
Fire: 234.55 (1.44*(1+0.95+0.8+1.0+0.25)=5.76*table lookup)
Total: 389.29
New damage:
Lethal: 177.14 ((1*1.45)*(1+0.95+0.8+0.25)=4.35*table lookup)
Fire: 255.08 ((1.44*1.45)*(1+0.95+0.8+0.25)=6.265*table lookup)
Total = 432.22
That's an extra 43 damage.
If you happen to be running with a Kin with Fulcrum Shift, it would not be uncommon for you to be at the damage cap, in which case the old Fiery Embrace would not help you at all and the new Fiery Embrace would have you running at nearly 45% greater damage output while it was active.
It's back to broken again, you're welcome!
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.