i18 Brutes the sad tale

Oh she's right in that there is no good reason for the changes to result in a 50% performance loss; but it is possible for a minor change to halve levelling speed if the player in question is stubbornly insisting on using settings customised to their performance before the change and therefore dying a lot.

I don't doubt that real brute performance is changed by exactly the amount Arcanaville stated in her original post; I just spotted a missing factor of 50% between what the OP was saying they had and what Arcanaville said could be due to the changes themselves and debt seemed like an obvious cause, when the OP's post mentioned being pounded into dust and dying easily everything fell into place.

Nothing is impossible if you can factor in stupidity as a driving force.

The section in question, including the part you highlighted, suggested that because the OPs brute was less defensively strong, that limited the amount of enemies they could tank to improve Fury. Its illogical to assume that when faced with a Brute that they felt was less defensively strong (it "dies more easily") that they would keep pushing it into those situations where it would die repeatedly.

Furthermore, while its possible to conjecture that a 20% loss in damage could be the difference between survival and death in a *single* spawn, it still doesn't explain the loss in leveling speed because the difference between the two would be the difference between being dead and ending the fight at low health, which produces a bad situation on the very next spawn (rest, or die).

This could only cause an outsized result if the increased damage produced an alpha strike that was initially more lethal, generating front-loaded damage mitigation, and only for relatively small spawns. It could have a disproportionate effect on blaster leveling, say, at x1 or maybe x2. It would not have one on something like a brute with enough defenses to make it nearly meaningless.

If the person was playing their brute in a sustainable manner before the changes, then the damage loss would not just show up and kill them. They would see it coming from a mile away as each fight started with less health than the one before. It would not convert a steamroll into a death trap.

But then the cause wouldn't be the fury change. Theoretically speaking, changing the color of the attacks could also prompt a player to do something that ended up costing them a 50% loss in performance. But I wouldn't consider it fair to call that the cause of the problem.

It might be illogical, but is a VERY common situation.

it doesn't have to be. If stupidity is the driving force, then it's not at all unheard of that stupidity would also be the cause of falsely placed blame, e.g. 'I can't use +4/x8 difficulty to level anymore! My leveling speed has suffered because I keep dying at the hands of enemies too powerful for me to handle! This HAS to be because of the fury change!'

lrn2ply

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWyvern Since i solo a lot, i definitively see a difference in my damage. I tested against a pylon and it took 35 minutes instead of 20 like before.

GASP! Say it ain't so! Please tell me deliberate changes to Brutes' damage potential had absolutely no effect on Brutes' damage potential! Please!

Go back and read all the posts where people said they didn't see any difference.

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Originally Posted by FireWyvern Go back and read all the posts where people said they didn't see any difference.

I don't see a difference either. Why, you ask? Because most of us don't go solo'ing Pylons and time it. Because the majority of players aren't hard core min/maxers who'd care about 15 minutes of increase in taking down a Rikti Pylon on your own.

That's what the change was directed at: The high-end Brutes that made Tankers and Scrappers obsolete; e.g. Your Brute.

On the low-end side, I (and some people I know) not only do not notice any changes, but we also see improvements. We no longer have to worry so much about keeping Fury up, and now we see a use for Scrappers and Tankers.

Sure, my own top-tier Brute has lost performance. But I understand that I'm NOT the only person playing this game, and that a balanced, fair game requires sacrifice of unbalanced (be it under-powered or over-powered) aspects of the game.

They brought Brutes down, and took Tankers up; instead of taking Scrappers and Tankers to the level of Brutes. That would mean every other AT should also come up to the level of a Brute in what they specialize in. And that's not how things get done.

Is that really so hard to understand that some people are rage-quitting over it?

I love market phrase comments like these that stereo type half the net nowadays.
Listen DUDE if you cannot do what i cannot even explain , you stink !!!

Honestly anyone playing a brute ? translation anyone not playing the brute power choices i play .
Whats the malarkey about low damage ? - translation things die in 2 blows in optimal conditions , and Bosses die in 4 blows ... See its not hard to kill stuff .
Especially not with ghoul maps being junk full >.< i mean they meant to HIT YOU !! (anybody already softcapped at level 10 :P )
Praetoria may be challenging .... Translation i think i just teamed trough half the arcs didnt make moral choices .
Ambushes and Sieges .... translation WTF are those ?

Sorry dude i am now finishing my 2nd toon , first went testing crusader resistance arcs (that i found intrigiuging but not exciting enough) . 2nd i went pure hardcore loyalist . and i love the arcs .
Do i have a challenging time , yes i do i find all those nifty status reduction stuff quite funny .
Infact i found my offender even more fun to play then my brute . but i do see that others might find the challenge a bit too much .

Now if i spoke like the rest of you dudes , i would say this game sucks , cause there is no challenge at all other then farm grind with IO equiped .
But luckily i am not like you guys and girls , and say ok this game is fun cause the story are well written . and i am still paying to see creativities .
The story are worth paying for not , some lousy talk about DUDE THIS IS MY OPNION there is NO CHALLENGE . translation OLD CONTENT SUCKS , NEW CONTENTS SUCKS wtf i am just leveling in a team, i do not read story arcs .
I see green coming up i press green , i see yellow coming up i press yellow .

Now peace out your opnion is your opnion , but dont expect it to be the universal truth .
Neither is my opnion the universal truth .

Can you phrase your sentences in the form of sentences?

Firewyvern, the changes were explicitly meant to hit the high-end extremes. Congratulations, you got hit.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

So if you cannot even read that , and you cannot even proper build your own sentences.

The limited lines you type .
WTF are you talking about ?

Its like WTF are you written on about ?
You even read your own lines , sounds cool but totally meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Lonelyshade I love market phrase comments like these that stereo type half the net nowadays. Listen DUDE if you cannot do what i cannot even explain , you stink !!! Honestly anyone playing a brute ? translation anyone not playing the brute power choices i play . Whats the malarkey about low damage ? - translation things die in 2 blows in optimal conditions , and Bosses die in 4 blows ... See its not hard to kill stuff . Especially not with ghoul maps being junk full >.< i mean they meant to HIT YOU !! (anybody already softcapped at level 10 :P ) Praetoria may be challenging .... Translation i think i just teamed trough half the arcs didnt make moral choices . Ambushes and Sieges .... translation WTF are those ? Sorry dude i am now finishing my 2nd toon , first went testing crusader resistance arcs (that i found intrigiuging but not exciting enough) . 2nd i went pure hardcore loyalist . and i love the arcs . Do i have a challenging time , yes i do i find all those nifty status reduction stuff quite funny . Infact i found my offender even more fun to play then my brute . but i do see that others might find the challenge a bit too much . Now if i spoke like the rest of you dudes , i would say this game sucks , cause there is no challenge at all other then farm grind with IO equiped . But luckily i am not like you guys and girls , and say ok this game is fun cause the story are well written . and i am still paying to see creativities . The story are worth paying for not , some lousy talk about DUDE THIS IS MY OPNION there is NO CHALLENGE . translation OLD CONTENT SUCKS , NEW CONTENTS SUCKS wtf i am just leveling in a team, i do not read story arcs . I see green coming up i press green , i see yellow coming up i press yellow . Now peace out your opnion is your opnion , but dont expect it to be the universal truth . Neither is my opnion the universal truth .

What are you even talking about? Do you read the stuff you type?

All I got from that post was "Everyone's dumb/blind, lol wtf...wtf....wtf...challenge...opinions...universa l truth..."...

You sound like you're really mad about the direction City of Heroes is going, in which case I can't help but to ask WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?

But my brute was IOed with purples. I though those didn't matter in balance?
Take a scrapper with that much budget, and he'd do the same thing. Actually, wasn't it a scrapper that soloed 9 AVs at once, without any insps or temps? Oh right... it was.

What about all the crazy corr/def/troller builds that are survivable enough to survive AV or GM aggro without help and damaging enough to solo them? Guess they are making the whole team absolete.


From when i started playing (the issue just before WP and DB), CoX have always been about that. Any role or AT can be made obsolete. It's just sad that brutes were the one that got hit, specialy when they aren't even the ones that did the craziest thing.

Scrappers were already the last choice for MoSTF. If there wasn't any use before, they don't have any more use, specialy now that there is corr, MM and VEAT blue side.
Tankers were already obsolete, since all the def/troller-only team.

In a way, the change only made brutes less usefull in top end content, where they were already less usefull then force multiplier like corr, mm and some VEATs.

Wh-what are you saying?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWyvern But my brute was IOed with purples. I though those didn't matter in balance? Take a scrapper with that much budget, and he'd do the same thing. Actually, wasn't it a scrapper that soloed 9 AVs at once, without any insps or temps? Oh right... it was. What about all the crazy corr/def/troller builds that are survivable enough to survive AV or GM aggro without help and damaging enough to solo them? Guess they are making the whole team absolete. From when i started playing (the issue just before WP and DB), CoX have always been about that. Any role or AT can be made obsolete. It's just sad that brutes were the one that got hit, specialy when they aren't even the ones that did the craziest thing.

You missed the point I was trying to make.

Before the changes, it was much easier to make a much more powerful top-end Brute. The number of top-tier Brutes running around was much larger than the number of top-tier versions of any other Archetypes; yes, even more than Scrappers. Because if you decided to spend 2 billion inf. on a Scrapper build, you'd be better off to spend that money on a Brute. Cause in the end, the Brute would be better (exceptions apply). Same for Tankers.

So the changes eliminated that, making it harder to produce a top-tier Brute that can nullify a Scrapper in terms of damage, or a Tanker in terms of survivability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWyvern Scrappers were already the last choice for MoSTF. If there wasn't any use before, they don't have any more use, specialy now that there is corr, MM and VEAT blue side. Tankers were already obsolete, since all the def/troller-only team.

So the priority in one specific challenge in the game determined how balanced the AT is? Scrappers are less survivable than Brutes and Tankers. That's how they were designed (exceptions apply).

And Tankers are obsolete to people who roll all Defender/Controller teams. Not to the average player playing with an average PuG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWyvern In a way, the change only made brutes less usefull in top end content, where they were already less usefull then force multiplier like corr, mm and some VEATs.

Okay.

LOL no , i am not mad , i am enjoying this game as it is
The rest well thats up to people to decide for themself .

Am i angry at the direction the DEV are taking nope , i am just playing the game they made and enjoying it . so far they haven´t dissapointed me one bit .

And i am not even emotionally attached ..
So i can give a unbiased opnion about the game .

Is it good ? yup cause i am still paying .
Do i have fun playing it ?.. After 1 hour not really .
But in that 1 hour do i have fun ? Yes definetly great value for the monthly money .
Are the stories well written ? Well MORE THEN WELL WRITTEN they are TERRIFIC .
Do i have fun playing the farm game ? nope i dont .
Do i mind others playing the farm game Nope as long it keeps them happy .
Do i think half the people on the net are lost cause ? Yup i do , and its not that are stupid , infact intelligence went up , just logic and realisme went down the drain !
Do i think short biased opnion of ME MESELF and AMY are waste of time , without looking at the greater picture ? yes i do .

So back to you beth for the weather cast .
Cause it looks very sunny with some clouds on the horizons .

Cool, i didn't know there have been a study on that. Care to share the numbers for top-tier in every ATs?
(and if you really think there was more top-tier brutes then there was troller farmer or MMs that could beat anything, there's a huge a problem with your perception)

Because if you decided to spend 2 billion inf. on a Brute build, you'd be better off to spend that money on a *insert def, cor, MM, troler, blaster*


The priority of one of the hardest challenge showed what was really at the lowest end for most. If you want to use +0 papermissions, then a petless MM is balanced with a brute, since both will rarely be refused.

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Originally Posted by FireWyvern Cool, i didn't know there have been a study on that. Care to share the numbers for top-tier in every ATs? (and if you really think there was more top-tier brutes then there was troller farmer or MMs that could beat anything, there's a huge a problem with your perception)

Okay. But between Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes, can you honestly say the number of top-tier Scrappers or Tankers were higher than the number of top-tier Brutes? The adjustments were made to these three Archetypes; so I can only assume the discussion is about these three archetypes as well.

Who knows, maybe these so-called top-tier Controllers/Masterminds/Corruptors will get re-adjusted as well.

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Originally Posted by FireWyvern Because if you decided to spend 2 billion inf. on a Brute build, you'd be better off to spend that money on a *insert def, cor, MM, troler, blaster*

See above.

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Originally Posted by FireWyvern The priority of one of the hardest challenge showed what was really at the lowest end for most.

No. Just because something is difficult, it doesn't mean it's absolute. Most of the challenges in this game can be achieved with best results through an optimized combination of archetypes and builds. In a Master Taskforce, survivability is key. Scrappers are not the most survivable archetype in the game (exceptions apply), and they cannot make other team members any more survivable; so their only use would be raw damage, and Blasters already beat them in that game.

Now, for solo'ing, I still found Brutes and Scrappers the best Archetypes; so did many others. Each Archetype has a unique purpose and roll. After the Brute changes, I find Scrappers to be the best Archetype for generic solo'ing (exceptions apply). Before you say "But I've seen Illusion/Radiation Controllers solo AVs!!!!!"...yes. You have. And in my opinion, they need an adjustment too. But that's for another debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWyvern If you want to use +0 papermissions, then a petless MM is balanced with a brute, since both will rarely be refused.

From Dictionary.com:

hyperbole
hy·per·bo·le [hahy-pur-buh-lee]
–noun Rhetoric .
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

But to each their own, I guess...

I for one, very much enjoy the Brute and Tanker changes.

I can't help but feel I'm being beat-poetry'd at.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

I have two level 50 brutes (mentioned in my signature pictures), a 50 Fire/Fire/Pyre, and a 50 Dark/Dark/Soul. I like to consider these two brutes 'higher end' since I've spent about 400 mil on each of them. They both have a magna carta of set bonuses in their power info, and both can solo +2/x8 without breaking a sweat (this does of course have it's rebuttals, a lot of people think I'm having trouble when I die and use Soul Transfer/Rise of the Phoenix, but really I'm just using them for both their intended purpose and to mess up an entire spawn).

That said, I have noticed a very very slight decrease in damage output. But from what I've seen, this is the cost of being able to maintain solid fury levels between spawns. I'm fine with that. Absurdly fine with it.

Ow, my sentence structure.

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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim I have two level 50 brutes (mentioned in my signature pictures), a 50 Fire/Fire/Pyre, and a 50 Dark/Dark/Soul. I like to consider these two brutes 'higher end' since I've spent about 400 mil on each of them. They both have a magna carta of set bonuses in their power info, and both can solo +2/x8 without breaking a sweat (this does of course have it's rebuttals, a lot of people think I'm having trouble when I die and use Soul Transfer/Rise of the Phoenix, but really I'm just using them for both their intended purpose and to mess up an entire spawn). That said, I have noticed a very very slight decrease in damage output. But from what I've seen, this is the cost of being able to maintain solid fury levels between spawns. I'm fine with that. Absurdly fine with it.

By "top-tier" Brutes, I'm more or less referring to min/maxed, FotM Brutes with builds that go way above 1,000,000,000 inf. in cost for Purples, maybe a couple of PvP IOs, and a bunch of LotGs and Numina's that has a maximized single-target attack chain, along with potentially a maximized AoE attack chain.

Those got hurt by the change. Not any more than the rest of the Brutes, though, I assure you...

It's just someone who went through the effort of spending like, 200,000,000 inf. for an extra 4% of damage is probably gonna notice a 25% overall damage reduction VERY VERY VERY costly.

My alts would kill me if I blew 200 million on 4% of damage. They need money too!