Added Issue 18 Tanker ability: Bruising

Heck, hit me with it five times. I think that would be a great addition.

Yeah, after thinking about it, it's pretty obvious the Brute would win if we were judging on "time to completion" alone.

So how about we do this:

Same circumstances as above, but instead of judging times, just keep increasing PPPP/SRSLY until one toon can no longer consistently survive the encounter.

Now, who wins?

(I'd do this myself, but I have no vills. As soon as I get GR, I'll roll a Brute that will be similar to my main Tank, but with my leveling speed, it will be months before I get to fitty.)

So, lets say the Brute stalls out at +1 8X, and the Tanker can do +3 8X.

Factor in that those 2 extra levels will diminish the Tanker's damage and increase killing time even more.

Now consider than Inf for defeated enemies is small potatos. The real money is in rare and purple drops.

Even if the +1 enemies don't reward as much inf, they still drop purples. Drop rates don't increase as the enemy level increases, AFAIK. So, even though the Brute can't do +3 8X, he'll be carving up those +1's faster and completing missions faster than the Tanker who's operating at +3 8X.


Brute still wins with better rewards vs time invested.
Tanker earns slow fights and empty bragging rights for slowly chipping down +3's.



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So... a brute hits harder, and a tanker survives longer.

I think this is as it should be.

I'm trying to figure out what argument you're trying to make here, Johnny.

That Tankers get the short end of the melee stick. Not that it's even really open to disagreement.


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And your solution is?

My Shield/Axe Tanker got an Apocalypse purple recipe last night, and 41 kills later, an Armageddon purple dropped. Question: does this mean it's the end of the world?

At farming, you mean? Brute wins at boring old farming and Tanker wins at adventuring with a team?

And the tanker can lead +4 TFs with whatever players decide to come along because he's that bloody hard to kill and can keep the attention off his friends. Tanker wins when it comes to fun, in my book.

Stop comparing tankers to superman. This isn't the comic books, this is an online game where a thing called balance exists.

Your character can only have so much 'total damage.' If you can handle more damage in, then you have to be able to put less damage out. You want to hit hard? Roll a scrapper. Want to be able to survive anything? Roll a tank.

Want to do both? Go play some other, inferior superhero MMO.

Actually there's a term of long standing among gamers to describe people who expect this kind of power.

His argument is that Tankers should keep all of their current resilience and survivability levels and should have their melee damage output be on par with or greater than both Brutes and Scrappers.

Yes, it's as ridiculous as it sounds.

Brutes get to tag along on those same TFs and get the same cut of the rewards of the Tanker, whether they work as hard or not.

I don't see the current situation with the melee ATs as being very balanced or fair at all. Scrappers and Brutes would disagree, I imagine.


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And how would you address the imbalance, Johnny?

First I'd just ignore Tankers alltogether. Then I would buff Scrapper damage. Then I would wait a couple years and add a system that allows Scrappers to soft cap their defenses without really losing any of their damage. Then I'd give Tankers an inherent effect to their T1 that buffed the damage of Scrappers they were teamed with even more, while the Tanker continues to make sure the Scrapper never faces a disadvantage solo or teamed.

Oh wait, that's what I would do to increase the imbalance. My mistake.


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I have him on ignore, if more people did that he wouldn't have anyone to talk to.

Eh, doesn't that apply to the Blasters, Defenders, Controllers, and other ATs too?

Are you aware that the Brute forum has two active threads about how Brutes are now cruelly nerfed, and the Scrapper forum has been host to numerous nervous "are we being replaced in Going Rogue?" threads?

You know, just because an AT is "dps" doesn't mean their role has to be easy. Other games have content that can win or lose based off the performance of their dps. If their damage output is too low, the encounter will defeat them. If they play poorly (stand in fire, steal aggro) they waste another class's resources (ie: healer's mana) and/or could die (leading to a wipe due to lack of dps).

Do "dps" characters here have less responsibility currently? Yes.
Does it have to be that way? No.
Would people welcome such a change? Most likely not.

For example, there are circumstances where that happens now where low dps can cause problems (can't out damage Ghost Widow's heal, Reichsman's regen while phased/Unstoppable, etc), and people find that quite frustrating.

The side problem is that buffs/debuffs in CoX are much stronger than they are in the other games I spoke of. Don't have enough "dps"? Buff/debuff until what you have is adequate. Group too squishy? Buff/debuff it until survival is trivial.

Of course, tweaking a game to be difficult like other MMOs would do irreparable damage to non-min/maxed builds. Am I saying CoX should be designed like other games? No, just pointing out that "dps" doesn't have to be an easy role.

Of course, there is always the "end game content" looming in the horizon. Who knows what that will bring...

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On a completely different note, just because someone is playing a Tanker doesn't mean they're playing any harder than a Brute. I've seen more than my share of Tankers who don't play any differently than a Scrapper or Brute.

With the arguable exception of Controllers (in the late game at least), those ATs actually do make a sacrifice in soloing ability. For the most part, they don't get to solo very well then coast on a team when they're feeling lazy. And even if they do coast when I'm tanking, I hardly envy them when they're not on a team. In other words, they don't get their cake and eat it too, unlike Scrappers.

I'm well aware. That's why I'm not riding Brutes too hard until the smoke clears and we see where they actually do stand now.

That doesn't change the fact that Brutes still solo better than Tankers and still get the same cut of team rewards as anyone else, which is what I was arguing there.

O noes! The richest, most popular and best soloing AT in the game has something to be worried about for once! Good thing it's just an imaginary threat and the devs will bend over backwards for Scrappers.


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Well, if that's the tack you're going to argue, then Tankers solo better than a lot of Controllers, and still get the same cut of team rewards as them. Same with Defenders. Same with Peacebringers, I'd argue.

There is always going to be a spectrum of abilities whenever you have a multiple-AT-like setup, with some ATs better at soloing, and some at teaming, with some falling in the middle, able to team and solo decently well. That doesn't mean those ATs are broken.

Are YOU aware that both of those threads are just unnecessary QQ posts? Read their actual content, not just their title. Brutes are fine. Continue discussing Tankers.

Tankers are fine. Continue discussing BBQ.

Ribs are delicious.

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Discuss.

Yes, of course -- my point is that we have examples of some Brutes whining about their AT, some Tankers whining about theirs, and some Scrappers whining about theirs. yet all three ATs are doing very well. Tanker flaws are as imaginary as Scrapper flaws.