anybody know?
Not much. Generally three very minor ticks - but only an 80% chance per tick and if it fails on a tick, it doesn't try for the rest. The fact that it's converting 30% of your lethal damage into fire is far more significant.
But it's better than nothing when you're teaming ('cos you don't want to use regular ammo!) and not playing with a cold user (to contribute to slowing and -recharge with Cryo) or against enemies that do enough damage that -10% (chem ammo) would make any real difference.
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Thanks! I agree that the best part about swap ammo is converting some lethal dmg into fire/cold/toxic dmg. I just haven't really dug deep into DP yet. I think I am going to run with a S/L soft capped DP/MM plan when GR hits.|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Not much. Generally three very minor ticks - but only an 80% chance per tick and if it fails on a tick, it doesn't try for the rest. The fact that it's converting 30% of your lethal damage into fire is far more significant.
But it's better than nothing when you're teaming ('cos you don't want to use regular ammo!) and not playing with a cold user (to contribute to slowing and -recharge with Cryo) or against enemies that do enough damage that -10% (chem ammo) would make any real difference. |
I was hoping that Swap Ammo would better compensate for the loss of aim, at least a little bit. I know it's probably wishful thing but the Devs need to boost the effects of Swap Ammo, just turn up the effects a notch or two like:
Cryo * S/B stacking -20% recharge/speed (like on Ice Blast)
Incendiary * S/B 3-5 ticks of 10% extra damage/tick @ the current 80% chance/tick (like on Fire Blast)
Chemo * not sure about chemo, nothing much to compare it to.
How do these numbers compare to the real numbers?
btw here's the build I will be working towards:
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Chemo as you are calling it, does toxic dmg just like Spines Melee. So, that is what you would compare it to if you wanted to compare.
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pie
Cryo * S/B stacking -20% recharge/speed (like on Ice Blast)
Incendiary * S/B 3-5 ticks of 10% extra damage/tick @ the current 80% chance/tick (like on Fire Blast) Chemo * not sure about chemo, nothing much to compare it to. |
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Right, but it doesn't have a DoT like Incendiary right? So Chemo (or Chemical) rounds won't compare to Spines well. Perhaps we could look at Poison's Weaken....|
Originally Posted by Infinite_Avenger
Chemo as you are calling it, does toxic dmg just like Spines Melee. So, that is what you would compare it to if you wanted to compare.
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Chemo * Stacking -To-Hit and -Dmg debuffs in a 2:1 ratio.
Bam there you have it.
It will never have as strong a secondary effect as a powerset that only gets that secondary because you have flexibility that they lack. An ice blaster can only do cold and -recharge, they can't ever deal toxic or fire, and they don't get dots or -dam. You can pick and choose as needed, and in exchange for that flexibility you lose some of the potency of the secondary effect.
I think it is a pretty fair trade. I will also mention that they did leave you the ability to slot for any effect and the bonuses and procs will work regardless of what ammo you are using. So that is quite nice.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Uh....no, the trade should be for the lack of AIM in the set. You shouldn't get less because of flexability, you should get more because of no AIM.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
It will never have as strong a secondary effect as a powerset that only gets that secondary because you have flexibility that they lack. An ice blaster can only do cold and -recharge, they can't ever deal toxic or fire, and they don't get dots or -dam. You can pick and choose as needed, and in exchange for that flexibility you lose some of the potency of the secondary effect.
I think it is a pretty fair trade. I will also mention that they did leave you the ability to slot for any effect and the bonuses and procs will work regardless of what ammo you are using. So that is quite nice. |
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Say what?|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Not much.
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At level 50, Dual Wield deals a baseline of 82.58 damage (57.81 lethal and 24.77 ammo variant). The incendiary DoT provides an additional 16.7 damage (sum of 7.07 * .8 ^ n, where n is each integer from 1 to 4). Unless you consider 20% more damage (because it's enhanced by all of the same things that buff your baseline damage) "not much", you have no clue what you're talking about. It's similar for the other attacks such Empty Clips (56.92 base damage, 13.8 bonus damage for 24% more damage with incendiary on), Bullet Rain (62.52 base damage, 13.8 bonus damage for 22% more damage), Executioner's Shot (132.63 base damage, 24.96 bonus damage for 18% more damage), and Hail of Bullets (204.48 base average damage, 33.6 bonus damage for 16% more damage). The only attack that doesn't benefit from incendiary ammo's DoT is Pistols, and it doesn't get anything except for the damage type alteration for any ammo type. Incendiary Ammo adds a massive amount of damage, especially for your AoEs.
As to the damage type changing being more useful than the damage itself, that's just as much of a joke. The damage type alteration is too small to have any meaningful effect upon the performance of the set (it's only 30% of your total damage that changes). Even against enemies that heavily resist one type of damage and are weak to another (like CoT behemoths with their 20% resistance to fire and 20% weakness to cold), it's still better to use incendiary ammo for the bonus damage than it is to use cryo ammo for the damage type advantage:
Assume that incendiary ammo contributes roughly 20% more damage from the DoT. A 100 damage attack with cryo ammo is going to deal 70 lethal damage and 30 cold damage. The same attack with incendiary ammo would deal 70 lethal damage and 50 fire damage. Applying resistance and weakness, the total damage on the two attacks would be 106 for cryo ammo (70 + 30 * 1.2) and 110 for incendiary ammo(70 + 50 * .8). The ammo type advantage simply doesn't exist. The only real difference in the performance of the various ammo types is simply in the secondary effect of the powers themselves. For damage, none of the other ammos beat incendiary ammo, even in situations that are good for them and bad for incendiary.
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pie
Uh....no, the trade should be for the lack of AIM in the set. You shouldn't get less because of flexability, you should get more because of no AIM.
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Weird.
Not having Aim never seemed to bother Assault Rifle or Dark Blast users. Should THEY get more to make up for not having it?
Dominator Assault sets don't get Aim either, should they get more utility for not having it?
What about Controllers, they don't get Aim.
Sorry, saying a set should be OMGAWESOME to make up for not having a power that not everyone gets anyway just makes me laugh.
The devs learned their lesson from Willpower and Shield Defense and didn't make the powerset better than everything else available to the AT.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Dark Blast isn't available to Blasters so the lack of Aim in the set isn't really incredible (BU/Aim's primary utility is in generating a powerful alpha strike to mitigate incoming damage by defeating a majority of foes early on in the fight). AR suffers from problems far greater than a simple lack of Aim, though I'm more than sure that it would be a problem were the rest of the set anywhere near the same design as the other blast sets (and remember that DP is designed in the same mold as every other blast set out there with the sole exception of coughing up Aim for Swap Ammo).|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not having Aim never seemed to bother Assault Rifle or Dark Blast users. Should THEY get more to make up for not having it?
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The only problem with the lack of Aim or an Aim equivalent it is that there is no practical reason why Dual Pistols shouldn't have Aim. Swap Ammo is no longer the power that actually alters what ammo you're using like it did in beta so there is no need for the set to lose an otherwise baseline functionality, especially since that functionality confers no greater benefit than any other set gets automatically (variable debuffs and damage types are balanced by lower overall power of those effects). It is both entirely possible and almost assuredly quite simple for the devs to simply turn Swap Ammo back into a "normal" power as an explicit clone for Aim while still granting the ammo toggles as they already stand: the animation for the original Swap Ammo still exists and the actual Swap Ammo power still exists in game. With a few keystrokes, the devs could get rid of the silly notion that somehow Dual Pistols is somehow getting something for losing Aim (which is isn't).
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But it IS available to Corruptors and Defenders, who also share Dual Pistols. | Dark Blast isn't available to Blasters so the lack of Aim in the set isn't really incredible |
Blasters have 2 primaries that don't get Aim, both of which are based on guns. Corruptors get 3 primaries that don't get Aim, one of which is Dark Blast.
Defenders get 4 secondaries that don't get Aim, because their Psychic Blast doesn't have it.
No one else in the game even gets access to Aim, and it doesn't seem to bother them.
I fail to see how Dual Pistols is gimped by not having Aim, but Defender Dark and Psychic Blasts aren't.
Sorry, I just don't think Blasters having a total of 2 powersets that lack Aim is worth all the crying I've seen about it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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its not huge but it does add up well..and a great agro magnet tool..not good =)|
Originally Posted by Golden_Pie
How much extra damage does the incendiary ammo add to the damage output of Dual Pistols?
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My higher level DP Corr I primarily use Lethal to juggle mobs into my tar patch....but there are times when the debuffs are needed on tougher groups. So using the bio ammo debuffs the mobs , which your tankers on blue will love.
The freezing ammo i read slows attack rate on top of movement..(true? confirmation?) I use it only as a way to keep mobs snared if we herd ...more situational ammo.
Cryo is nice enhancer ...the ammo triggers off often with the cone aoe and aoe attacks...you will see it land more with those moves. As for single shots sometimes it lands sometimees it doesn't.
I think if you use the fire ammo...use it with your aoe's to get max effect from your aoe damage output.
I am constantly flipping toggles to stack fire with debuff on tougher fights...
Its nice to have cryo by the way..this way you can turn OFF that knock backs at will..by changing ammo type.
Sorry i keep saying Cryo: should be saying swap ammo
But what if they did made end using toggle from swap ammo it could have some beter buff?
Chemo rounds - ToHit Debuff / Damage Debuff / Regen Debuff depents on AT
Cryo rounds - Slow / Recharge Debuff / Damage debuff "Fire"
Incendiary rounds - gives DoT melts armor resistance Debuff something like Sonic Blast
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Then you'd be paying end to access something you're getting right now for free. They could make the toggles cost something and increase the swap ammo secondary effects to compensate but then you're paying endurance simply to access the schtick of the set, which is the ability to change you secondary effects. It still doesn't address the whole "lack of Aim" problem either. Best solution is to simply leave the ammos where they are and to provide the set with burst damage functionality like it should have gotten from the beginning (provide [Swap Ammo] with a 90 second recharge, 10 sec duration, 62.5% +dam buff; problem solved).
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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Dazzler
But what if they did made end using toggle from swap ammo it could have some beter buff?
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If you're that desperate for spike damage, choose a secondary with a Build Up and/or pop some reds when you want that spike. The lack of Aim in Dual Pistols is no big deal.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
It still doesn't address the whole "lack of Aim" problem either. Best solution is to simply leave the ammos where they are and to provide the set with burst damage functionality like it should have gotten from the beginning (provide [Swap Ammo] with a 90 second recharge, 10 sec duration, 62.5% +dam buff; problem solved).
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My opinion, they should just make swap ammo alter the element of the -majority- of damage dealt, or the type entirely.
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It's not a big deal except for the fact that the set is losing something that is functionally a standard of the design, it doesn't get anything special to compensate for the lack of it (unless you honestly believe that the slightly higher base acc in the attack really counteracts the loss of the spike damage capability), and there is no feasible reason why it shouldn't be there. There isn't any reason why the set couldn't be given Aim functionality.|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
If you're that desperate for spike damage, choose a secondary with a Build Up and/or pop some reds when you want that spike. The lack of Aim in Dual Pistols is no big deal.
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Of course, the entire counter-argument of "just grab BU from your secondary" doesn't really mean much anyway. BU doesn't simply replace Aim, and one of the big reasons to grab both of them is to have them stack (or put them on alternating cycles). You'll virtually never find a build with the option to take both that only takes one because they're both useful and powerful. Telling a Blaster to take BU is like telling a Scrapper to take their mez toggle: it's going to happen anyway if they've got one. The presence of a similar power in most secondaries isn't a reason for the set to not have Aim especially when there is no reason within the design or numbers of the set why it shouldn't.
Yeah any time I am on teams with blasters using anything but incendiary, I scratch my head. I can see switching to regular for mitigation, but if I am tanking I want that blaster to use fire every time.
By the way, since I have not been around the blaster forum in awhile, how does the redesigned AR stack up in comparison to other sets? I think it was a year ago or so that they sped the whole set up and nerfed the recharge on Ignite by a factor of 5 or so?
I blame myself for those changes somewhat - I was bragging about my AR/Kin web nading, fulcrum shifting, and igniting mobs every 3 seconds (discounting animation) for over 500 damage that I could stack with any kind of recharge.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
But it IS available to Corruptors and Defenders, who also share Dual Pistols.
Blasters have 2 primaries that don't get Aim, both of which are based on guns. Corruptors get 3 primaries that don't get Aim, one of which is Dark Blast. Defenders get 4 secondaries that don't get Aim, because their Psychic Blast doesn't have it. No one else in the game even gets access to Aim, and it doesn't seem to bother them. I fail to see how Dual Pistols is gimped by not having Aim, but Defender Dark and Psychic Blasts aren't. Sorry, I just don't think Blasters having a total of 2 powersets that lack Aim is worth all the crying I've seen about it. |
Uhm....maybe Defenders and Corruptors are in "dire need" of AIM...simply because...they are DEFENDERS and CORRUPTORS and have access to a HUGE array of buffs/debuffs....which not only increase your chances of hitting your targets vastly, but also grant you AND your team greatly increased damage output and survivability....
that...is why Defenders and Corruptors can both get away with having more Blast Sets which do not contain...AIM. Blasters, on the otherhand...shouldn't leave home without it, and I feel that both DP and AR are somewhat handicapped thanks to their lack of Aim. I like the idea behind Swap ammo...but to lose Aim in order to get it? I dunno...
*shrug* Then take a Blaster secondary with Build Up and/or stock yellows. That's what they're there for.
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Once again, it's not the same thing. The advantage of Aim is not the simply +tohit: it's the stackable burst damage capability. If you can say, "just take BUs or stock insps" the logical counterargument is to point out that sets with Aim get Aim, BU and insps so it's still not a valid counterpoint to simply say "just take something else": other sets get that something else as well as Aim so it's not equitable.
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
*shrug* Then take a Blaster secondary with Build Up and/or stock yellows. That's what they're there for.
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Sorry, I keep forgetting that some people don't like anything different in any of their powersets, and would rather the game remain "Push button, gain XP" forever. It isn't so much a case of it gimping the set, more or a case of "Well, it's a blast set, and blast sets have Aim, this blast set is broken because it doesn't have Aim." |
Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Uhm....maybe Defenders and Corruptors are in "dire need" of AIM...simply because...they are DEFENDERS and CORRUPTORS and have access to a HUGE array of buffs/debuffs....which not only increase your chances of hitting your targets vastly, but also grant you AND your team greatly increased damage output and survivability....
that...is why Defenders and Corruptors can both get away with having more Blast Sets which do not contain...AIM. Blasters, on the otherhand...shouldn't leave home without it, and I feel that both DP and AR are somewhat handicapped thanks to their lack of Aim. I like the idea behind Swap ammo...but to lose Aim in order to get it? I dunno... |
If you don't like the fact that Dual Pistols doesn't have Aim....don't play it. Nowhere in any rules I have ever read regarding this game does it say every player has to love every powerset. That's kind of why we have choices of what powerset to play. If everyone were expected to enjoy the same thing, there would be only one powerset. So, instead of complaining how underpowered Dual Pistols is without Aim, go play something else and let the people who enjoy Dual Pistols continue to enjoy it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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And that argument makes sense. Until you realize that there's no reason for the set to not have Aim, that is.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you don't like the fact that Dual Pistols doesn't have Aim....don't play it.
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Swap Ammo could be given Aim functionality while preserving everything else in the set because it's a shell power as it stands. The argument works for AR simply because, in order to provide the set with Aim, it would have to lose something. DP would lose nothing to get Aim, and it's pretty easily demonstrable that the change wouldn't make DP any stronger than any other set out there (since it's middling at the moment and that's ignoring the use of Aim in the first place) and might actually allow it to be a set that is actually a numerical competitor rather than one that simply survives based off of aesthetics.
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If it is a middling set now, it is probable that if we also give it Aim, we would be making it stronger than other sets. Not necessarily all other sets, but it would probably leap frog over some of the other "middling" sets.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
DP would lose nothing to get Aim, and it's pretty easily demonstrable that the change wouldn't make DP any stronger than any other set out there (since it's middling at the moment and that's ignoring the use of Aim in the first place) and might actually allow it to be a set that is actually a numerical competitor rather than one that simply survives based off of aesthetics.
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Aim would make it top tier, right? That would make it better than other sets you also don't prefer, right?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
How much extra damage does the incendiary ammo add to the damage output of Dual Pistols?