Swap Ammo question...
If you don't like it, don't play it. Play something you DO like instead of complaining on the forums about a set you probably still won't play anyway.
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And, yes, the lack of Aim is a problem.
Umm, no, that argument just plain makes sense. Theres no "Until" involved.
If you don't like it, don't play it. Play something you DO like instead of complaining on the forums about a set you probably still won't play anyway. |
It blows my mind how intolerable of differing opinions people are on the internet. Your perception is your perception. It's not THE perception.
The guy has a valid point and you are definitely not the authority on how the game should be played. I don't care one way or the other, but the tone and content of your posts are not only uncalled for but belligerent in nature and is the sort of rhetoric used to browbeat anyone who has a differing opinion in way too many online games' forums.
No, Aim would make it perform at the levels that have been number crunched for it (since I haven't seen numbers that anyone else released comparing it to other blast sets and my assumptions ignored Aim because the only set without Aim was AR and I knew it would be a joke from the beginning). Aim isn't going to make any middling set top tier, since it only comprises a ~20% +dam boost (roughly a 7% increase in damage output) well slotted.
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It would be kind of cool if they just gave DP blasters the three Ammo toggles at creation (and put the three toggles in the tray right away as well, like the MM buttons) and then put Aim in where Swap Ammo is currently.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
So your numbers putting DP in the middle are compared to all the other sets as if none of them have Aim. Hmmm. Interesting.
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I all honestly, I have to agree that it would make more sense to just give out the ammo toggles right from the start (since the "secondary effect" of the set is, in fact, the ability to change secondary effects and slightly alter your damage type) and turn Swap Ammo into some kind of Aim clone. I really don't care how exactly it's accomplished, but the set should get Aim functionality somewhere.
Dual Pistols has the ability to turn knockback on and off at will, and a pretty decent nuke that, despite not being in the league of Rain of Arrows (which is in a set with no debuffs of any kind), is still crashless. It may not be the best set on Blasters, but "crashless nuke" on a Defender or Corruptor means "nuke you will actually use." There are only three of them in the game, and 2 of them come on sets that are have no debuff to speak of.
Dual Pistols has the ability to turn knockback on and off at will, and a pretty decent nuke that, despite not being in the league of Rain of Arrows (which is in a set with no debuffs of any kind), is still crashless. It may not be the best set on Blasters, but "crashless nuke" on a Defender or Corruptor means "nuke you will actually use." There are only three of them in the game, and 2 of them come on sets that are have no debuff to speak of.
The set may still need tweaks. But looking at it on a table of damage values is not looking at the full story.
Umm, no, that argument just plain makes sense. Theres no "Until" involved.
If you don't like it, don't play it. Play something you DO like instead of complaining on the forums about a set you probably still won't play anyway. |
Dual Pistols has the ability to turn knockback on and off at will, and a pretty decent nuke that, despite not being in the league of Rain of Arrows (which is in a set with no debuffs of any kind), is still crashless. It may not be the best set on Blasters, but "crashless nuke" on a Defender or Corruptor means "nuke you will actually use." There are only three of them in the game, and 2 of them come on sets that are have no debuff to speak of.
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The problem with Hail of Bullets is that it suffers from the "Energy Melee problem" - the power has a stupidly long animation which makes using it a very poor option in most cases (the comparison to Energy Melee here is specifically Energy Transfer, but also Total Focus to a point). Even the defense buff granted while the power is activating doesn't make up for this, and it's really more useful for show than it is for actually killing mobs.
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
The problem with Hail of Bullets is that it suffers from the "Energy Melee problem" - the power has a stupidly long animation which makes using it a very poor option in most cases (the comparison to Energy Melee here is specifically Energy Transfer, but also Total Focus to a point). Even the defense buff granted while the power is activating doesn't make up for this, and it's really more useful for show than it is for actually killing mobs.
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Question for you:
If the power Aim didn't exist at all, if it were never in any of the other blast sets, would you be saying "This powerset needs an accuracy and damage boosting power on a long recharge that lasts for 10 seconds" ?
Or are you saying it needs Aim simply because other powersets have it?
Oedipous Tex has a point, looking at powersets as nothing but a collection of numbers doesn't say everything about them. You even said yourself that Dual Pistols has some good points.
A powerset does not have to be mathmatically superior in order to be fun to play. If that were the case, everyone would be playing whichever set was determined to be numerically the best.
Personally, I kind of LIKE the fact that Dual Pistols doesn't have Aim. I skipped both Aim and Build Up on my fire/fire and ice/elec blasters and actually have more fun with the characters without them than I ever did with them. I didn't like waiting to attack because Aim and Build Up weren't recharged yet, and basically having my entire play session revolving around 2 powers that I was told I'd be gimping myself if I didn't have them and use them every time they are up. Maybe I wasn't putting out the best DPS I possibly could....but I didn't really care.
I'm not an authority on how to play the game, hell I'm not really much of an authority on anything. But I do know that your average player just wants to play the game and have fun doing it, and doesn't really care that they could be putting out more DPS by doing this instead of that, or that Dual Pistols not having Aim is apparently a problem.
When I decide what powersets I want to play I consider a few things.
Is it visually appealing?
If not, can I customize it to be visually appealing?
Are the animations cool?
Can I come up with an interesting character with this set?
Does it have any cool/unique mechanics in it?
Does this set flow well in combat?
All those things add up into "fun to play"
I have NEVER asked "Does this set have Aim?" in deciding what set to play. And I can't imagine that all that many people do asked that question.
I'm getting the feeling that the devs are trying to get away from every set relying on the crutch of Aim and/or Build Up. Look at some of the sets that have come out recently: Dual Blades has the same mechanic as Claws for damage boosting, Kinetic Melee has Power Siphon, Dual Pistols doesn't have Aim. They gutted Blaster Psi Blast in order to cram Aim into it (still widely regarded as a bad move from what I see, only PvPers really seem to like it) Not a whole lot of the more recent powersets have Aim or Build Up (with the exception of stalker melee sets, those will probably always have Build Up)
Really, putting Aim into a set seems kind of like a cop out:
"I can't think of a 9th power for this set!"
"Is it a blast set?"
"Yeah!"
"Just put Aim in it and the players will never know we couldn't think of anything else to add!"
So, in short, I disagree that Dual Pistols not having Aim is a problem.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
If the power Aim didn't exist at all, if it were never in any of the other blast sets, would you be saying "This powerset needs an accuracy and damage boosting power on a long recharge that lasts for 10 seconds"?
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Or are you saying it needs Aim simply because other powersets have it? |
You even said yourself that Dual Pistols has some good points. |
A powerset does not have to be mathmatically superior in order to be fun to play. If that were the case, everyone would be playing whichever set was determined to be numerically the best. |
Personally, I kind of LIKE the fact that Dual Pistols doesn't have Aim. |
I have NEVER asked "Does this set have Aim?" in deciding what set to play. And I can't imagine that all that many people do asked that question. |
I'm getting the feeling that the devs are trying to get away from every set relying on the crutch of Aim and/or Build Up. |
So, in short, I disagree that Dual Pistols not having Aim is a problem. |
The only legitimate reason (i.e. not just because you like not having it) you could possibly argue that DP doesn't need some kind of buff to account for the loss of Aim is if you think that it's somehow strong enough already when pretty much anyone that knows anything will present evidence both theoretical and empirical demonstrating that it's simply not even close to being that strong.
Or is your problem that you would feel obligated to play differently because the set now has that capability? |
Of note: Since I dropped Aim and Build Up I have teamed quite a bit with those 2 characters and so far NO ONE has complained that I wasn't doing enough damage. In fact I strongly suspect that no one even realized I didn't have them.
So, if not having and using Aim on sets that have it didn't lower my performance to any significant degree on a team (or solo for that matter, I use the animation time that would have been spent on Aim and Build Up to fire another attack or two), why should I expect adding Aim to significantly increase it?
Now, I do want to get one thing straight. I am NOT opposed to improving Dual Pistols, I never was. What I AM opposed to is the idea that slapping the same power that every other set has into it is the ideal solution. If it must be improved, think of something else instead.
It's kind of like saying giving Energy Aura a damage aura will fix the problems with it because similar sets have a damage aura and they're just fine.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Of note: Since I dropped Aim and Build Up I have teamed quite a bit with those 2 characters and so far NO ONE has complained that I wasn't doing enough damage. In fact I strongly suspect that no one even realized I didn't have them.
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So, if not having and using Aim on sets that have it didn't lower my performance to any significant degree on a team (or solo for that matter, I use the animation time that would have been spent on Aim and Build Up to fire another attack or two), why should I expect adding Aim to significantly increase it? |
It's kind of like saying giving Energy Aura a damage aura will fix the problems with it because similar sets have a damage aura and they're just fine. |
If you agree that DP needs something to counteract the lack of Aim, I'm open to other ideas. Can you honestly think of something else that makes up for the lack of Aim without completely screwing up the design of the set and generates appropriate returns so as not to interfere with the overall balance of the set? I'd be curious to see your recommendations since, honestly, I haven't heard anything that appropriately addresses the problem from anyone that works better than simply providing [Swap Ammo] with short term +dam capability.
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I actually despise Aim; it's just a second Build Up with more ToHit and less Damage.
While I despise Swap Ammo as well, I think the best thing to do is to make Dual Pistol's secondary effects just as strong as other sets.
I'm having a hard time thinking of why you're taking this stance, when the functionality in question can be added without taking away any of the uniqueness the set currently has, while at the same time adding functionality that's more or less standard with Blaster sets.
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The first question is whether or not DP does in fact need a buff because that what adding Aim without removing anything is. If that is the case then I understand Claws position to be: Why Aim? There are probably dozens of ways to buff the set without adding just another Aim. You are saying that DP has basically a power slot that can be freed up without losing anything. Just use it creatively...
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Sure, buff Dual Pistols. But buff it in a different way than just giving it Aim.
If you just give it Aim, all it does is make it more like the other blast sets that already exist, but less effective because of the more heavily resisted damage type.
It already has the same layout as most blast sets:
1) Single target blast
2) Longer recharge, higher damage single target blast
3) Cone
4) Utility power (in this case Swap Ammo, most sets get Aim)
5) Targeted AoE
6) Mez power
7) Hard hitting, short range single target blast
8) Utility power (in this case it trades the usual snipe for a very narrow cone with 80 foot range)
9) Nuke.
Sometimes the power order differs, but most blast sets have more or less that allotment of powers. All giving Aim to Dual Pistols would do is make it more like everything else and it STILL wouldn't perform as well.
That's why I'm opposed to just giving the set Aim and calling it fixed: I'm not convinced that it will actually fix the problem. Aim would be most useful for the AoE attacks, but all the AoE attacks are DoT, so you could still easily be killed by return fire before the AoE finishes dealing it's damage. (that's what usually gets my DP blaster killed, damage taken while the DoT from my AoEs is ticking off)
My idea? Give Swap Ammo more ammo types to choose from. Negative Energy damage coupled with a to-hit debuff. Energy damage coupled with guaranteed KB on a few powers.
And I'm sure there are a few other things you could do. And you could make Swap Ammo give you a small defiance boost when you switch types.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
My idea? Give Swap Ammo more ammo types to choose from. Negative Energy damage coupled with a to-hit debuff. Energy damage coupled with guaranteed KB on a few powers.
And I'm sure there are a few other things you could do. And you could make Swap Ammo give you a small defiance boost when you switch types. |
Tohit is no stronger than -dam and it's less useful against stronger targets. There already is a KB secondary effect available so doubling up on secondary effects is completely redundant. A Defiance boost on the Ammo powers would be a complete joke because they have a .63 second animation time (4.1% +dam).
Those changes wouldn't do anything to appreciably improve performance. Your argument that somehow Aim is worse for the set because the AoEs are DoTs (regardless of the fact that they're DoTs that don't even last 2 seconds so they're not even numerically calculated as DoTs) is a complete joke as well.
Apparently your only problem is that the Aim fix isn't "creative" enough and that is simply just ******* stupid. I keep hearing "needs to be more creative" from all kinds of people about fixes for all kinds of things and yet, for some reason, it's never the people that actually come up with ideas that are actually useful that say such things. "Creative" is just a neophyte's buzzword for "I don't like things that we already know work".
If you have to say that a solution needs to be more "creative" give me a reason that it needs to be more creative. Give me a reason (and back it up with more than just idiotic drivel that doesn't even make internal sense beyond a complete inability to actually empirically gather information) and then support it. I call tell you with a strong degree of assurance that the Aim change would be a vastly bigger improvement than your "creative" solution that isn't even all that creative (more ammo types? really? that's been suggested since the very first beta runthrough. Incendiary is still going to be the only viable ammo for 99% of play regardless).
Go ahead and be creative but don't act like those of us that believe in using the Aim solution aren't somehow creative. Don't act like any solution that doesn't meet your arbitrary qualifier of "creative" is somehow flawed simply because we know it actually works (and, yes, we know it works). Try to actually think about what you're doing to the set and what end result you want before you simply claim that something is wrong because every other set has it.
Dual Pistols is already a different enough set simply because it has variable effects (and one explicitly unique effect). Just because you want it to be more different due to some arbitrary desire when you don't even know how to what to do doesn't mean that making a set more akin to those sets that are actually fully effective would somehow be bad. All it means is that you have no clue what you want except that you don't like what you've already got. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's good or useful.
Hell, if anything, Aim actually adds something to Dual Pistols' gameplay because it forces you to actually use a click power situationally rather than just turn a toggle on and run (which is all that DP has at the moment). Adding more toggles doesn't add anything to the existing gameplay because the existing toggles barely see any use beyond Incendiary Ammo. Adding a Defiance buff to the toggles wouldn't make people any more willing to hot switch between them unless you want to force them to bounce between 6 different toggles for 7 seconds before the fight begins so that they can get less than half of the +dam effect of Aim. All that you've suggested doesn't make the set any better, much less any different than it already is.
Alll that you're suggesting more of the same that we know doesn't contribute appreciably. At least my suggestion actually provides meaningful improvement (regardless of the fact that you're apparently too oblivious to note it).
*Shrug*
Fine.
Aim is going to make the set slightly less mediocre, and once you get it, you are very unlikely to ever get anything else, even if it doesn't fix the problem.
If the set gets Aim, and I start seeing people saying "Hey, we got Aim, why does Dual Pistols STILL suck?!" I'm going to laugh, because you will have gotten exactly what you wanted and it didn't fix anything.
So, don't complain if you get your precious Aim and the set still blows because that wasn't what it needed to fix it.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
My idea: Give DP something completely different. How about a 'bullet time' effect? Obviously you can't slow everything down but you can speed yourself up. So how about a power that for x seconds gives you +Recharge +Speed +Defense +To-Hit +End Discount. It could be used defensively (run away covered by higher defense) or offensively (your heavy hitters cost less end and recharge quicker. It would fit the theme of the set, and between the activation time, the duration, the recharge time and the level of the 5 buffs there would be enough levers to buff the set as desired. (The end disount might look funny thematically but the higher recharge would otherwise otherwise provide little benefit if you are in any way end limited which many players are.)
[The ideal case would be to have a set of shorter animations for every power in the set that would be used when under this effect which would increase the DPA of every power but the development time might be a bit much ]
During beta I advocated a "power-up" style play for DP's swap ammo similar to what you get in Contra. I doubt we'll get that now, but instead I submit a new power that you gain with or that replaces Swap Ammo:
Explosive Rounds.
This will be a temporary buff that tacks on bonus damage regardless of whichever ammo you have equipped, much like the the new FE. I would also suggest that the bonus damage hits anything within a 5ft radius, though I am unsure if that is feasible or even just plain OP.
A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread
I did have another thing occur to me that may explain why Dual Pistols didn't get Aim in the first place. It's kind of a radical idea, so bear with me here:
Maybe Dual Pistols wasn't designed with blasters in mind (gasp!)
I recall hearing something quite a while back that Dual Pistols was going to be a Corruptor set first, and then proliferated later. If that was tru at one point, it could very well be that it was designed to work best when used by a corruptor.
It makes sense when you look at the set:
1) It's AoEs are all DoT, which benefits greatly from Scourge.
2) It has secondary effects in it that are underpowered on a blaster, but stack very nicely with effects in Corruptor secondaries. The -dam in Chem rounds doesn't do much for blasters, because they have nothing to stack with it, but it stacks VERY nicely with Enervating Field, Darkest Night, Siphon Power, and Benumb, among other powers I can't think of right now. Same with the slow effect in Ice rounds, only one blaster secondary can really leverage it, but it stacks nicely with a lot of Corruptor and Defender powers.
3)It doesn't have Aim, because most Corruptors and Defenders don't need it, having either better ways to increase damage output, or less need to due to more team oriented focus.
4) It's nuke doesn't crash your endurance, making it ideal for those powersets that have toggles in them you don't want dropping (Rad's toggles, Darkest Night, Disruption Field, Dispersion Bubble, etc.) It's PBAoE nature also makes it a wonderful pairing with Fulcrum Shift, in case your Defender wants to actually deal some damage once in a while.
5) The variety of debuffs it offers means they stack very well with other DP users, something that is much more commonly done with defenders and corruptors than blasters. (Not that all blaster teams never happen, they just aren't as common)
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
1) It's AoEs are all DoT, which benefits greatly from Scourge.
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1) Dual Pistols is NOT DoT. DoT refers to powers that tick Damage Over Time. Time is going to be longer than the animation. DoT is damage that happens after the attack that inflicts it, while you get to do something else. Outside of Incendiary bullets, DP has no true DoTs.
2) Rains/patches can benefit from scourge. Trust me, as a player of a Dark/ corruptor, DoT and scourge are not good bedfellows.
3) Even if you would count the damage over animation and the incendiary bullets extra damage into the mix, they get no extra scourging benefit. That is not how scourge and DoTs from a player work, sadly.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I did have another thing occur to me that may explain why Dual Pistols didn't get Aim in the first place.
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Back in Ye Olde Dual Pistols Beta, Swap Ammo was a click power that caused you to cycle between the various ammo types with each activation (cryo>incend>chem>off, iirc). With that system, the devs wouldn't have been able to fit in Aim functionality without removing another power from the set (which wasn't likely to happen since it's a blast set and needs blasts to do its job). The lack of Aim wasn't really an issue because it was assumed that the combined effects of the the higher base acc andl increased damage from incendiary ammo would make up for the lack of Aim (here's a hint: it didn't). Eventually, there was enough player outcry that the devs switched to the current system (take Swap Ammo and you get the 3 separate toggles). In doing so, the entire reason why the set didn't have Aim (Swap Ammo did something and was taking up that slot) was removed.
As to whether the set was designed for Corrupters and Defenders rather than Blasters is up to debate. There has been no evidence from a reliable source that give credence to that position. There is some circumstantial evidence (in the lack of Aim and reliance on secondary effects) that it could have been true, but the same can be said of Sonic Blast (quite possibly more so since Sonic Blast is almost entirely reliant on the secondary effect whereas Dual Pistols is only tangentially reliant on it) and we know that Sonic Blast was designed by Cryptic knowing that they wanted it on both ATs available at the time. Considering Dual Blades and Kinetic Melee (which were both prolif'd to Brutes even though the devs explicitly stated that they weren't really Brutish sets because they didn't want to go through the hassle of making Brutish versions of the set, whether with new numbers or simply new animations), it could be true that, very early in the development of the set, it was intended for Defenders and Corruptors (which doesn't really make sense since Maelstrom is a Blaster and uses DP), but likely such AT exclusivity was largely scrapped when numbers started getting tossed around.
Your other reasons are rather vague regardless.
Of first note, I'm not entirely sure that Scourge applies on a per tick basis after the attack actually lands. I know that the Rains can utilize Scourge for each tick, but that's because each "tick" is actually a separate iteration of the power cast by the pseudo pet. From what it looks like on the power information, the Scourge condition is determined at the time of activation rather than on a per tick basis.
Weaker secondary effects are just simply part of being a Blaster, so saying that they have weaker secondary effects is like saying that Willpower is designed for Tankers because they get better values out of it.
Crashless nukes are no more useful for Defenders and Corruptors than they are for Blasters. While Blasters may see some more use out of crashing nukes than Defenders or Corruptors do, they still see very little use regardless. Crashless nukes are simply a new design step the devs have taken because it makes sense within the confines of the overall design of the set (i.e. crashless nukes actually get used whereas traditional nukes see a painfully small amount of use considering their position).
The fact that the debuffs stack well (and, only then, the -dam debuff is the only one that stacks particularly well thanks to increasing comparative returns rather than diminishing comparative returns for the other effects) is just part and parcel with the fact that there are debuffs and non-Blasters get better value from them. The same argument as applies to the secondary effects before applies here: Blasters don't stack as well because they don't get values as high. It wouldn't matter if it was a set designed for Blasters or Defenders or Corruptors: the debuffs would stack better on the support oriented ATs simply because those values are higher. You could make the same argument for any set with debuffs (i.e. anything that isn't Arch, Fire, or AR), and I'm more than confident that none of those sets were designed without Blasters explicitly in mind.
The only real point you make is that the set doesn't have Aim, which isn't an issue of intended AT but rather one of an economy of powers, as I stated before. They could only fit 9 powers into the initial player tests of it. Swap Ammo took the place of Aim not because it was designed for Defenders and Corrupters over Blasters (Synapse actually explicitly stated that DP/MM was his favorite DP combo) but rather because they didn't want to pull out an actual attack for Swap Ammo.
In summation, it's really up in the air and you can make arguments for either side. I don't think the devs will ever tell us outright whether they intended Dual Pistols to be released for one specific AT and not for another. I don't think it really matters anyway. Dual Pistols has been released and whether it was intended to be for one AT or another, it's been proven rather well that it underperforms (to what extent it underperforms depends on who you talk to) for all of the ATs in question (compared to the other available options). Whether the intent was to make a set that is better for Defenders and Corruptors than it was for Blasters is irrelevant: if it sucks for one AT, it should be tweaked to make it a viable numeric option regardless of the original intent.
If you don't like it, don't play it. Play something you DO like instead of complaining on the forums about a set you probably still won't play anyway.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.