Swap Ammo question...

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

You are incorrect. It was changed to separate toggles (against the developers' wishes) because players found a bug that allowed you to install all three types of special ammo through creative use of the click power and Walk. The toggles ended up being the only way they could make each of the ammo types 100% mutually exclusive.

But hey, nice try.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

I disagree that corruptors should regularly skip Aim.
While I do often skip Aim on my defenders, it is not because Aim would fail to improve my blasting performance, it is because I usually only need my blasts to be just good enough (but I frequently find myself pining for Aim on those characters).

I also disagree that Dual Pistols does not have good blaster synergy. Outside of the redraw issue, which will affect defenders and corruptors equally, I think it works quite exceptionally with many of the secondaries.

Against developers' wishes? They had to adapt tech for the purpose. They didn't have this mechanism just sitting on a shelf waiting for it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

The reason I always saw even from the devs themselves was that enough players complained about the cycling annoyance of the single click power that they changed it. The exploit might have been one reason, but if they honestly wanted to leave it as a cycling click power, they probably would have simply kept it that way. I base my claim on the fact that, from the very beginning, beta testers were complaining about the cycling Swap Ammo and the fact that, when asked about it, Synapse specifically said they were looking in to it and, eventually, that players would likely enjoy what was coming next. To me, that says that the devs changed it due to player desire for a different effect. They might have changed it due to the exploit as well, but I'm pretty confident that the bigger reason what the fact that so many players disliked the cycling ammo set up.

Depending on which mechanism you're referring to, you're either very wrong or very correct. The tech to alter chances for effects to occur based on powers affecting you had to be built from the ground up. The tech to grant multiple powers with a single power pick has been around since issue 3 (Kheldian form powers grant the form attacks upon taking the power).

As I said before, those powers are pseudo pet powers which operate by summoning a single entity and then having that entity spam numerous separate attacks throughout its lifespan. While it appears to a player as a single DoT because it ticks like crazy, it is not in fact the same thing because each tick is, in fact, a separate attack. The DP "DoTs" are single powers that tick multiple times so the Scourge is only checked once (at the time of activation) for all ticks rather than individually for each tick, so it is no better for Scourge than a non-DoT standard attack.

You explicitly said in your "radical idea" that you believed Dual Pistols wasn't designed with Blasters in mind. Designing with a specific AT in mind is assuming that there was an intentional design decision to build it around the capabilities of a specific AT. You can't say that it was designed with a specific AT in mind (stating that it was intentional) and then claim that it doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.

Well, all that I'm talking about is giving the [Swap Ammo] power the Aim functionality, not the name or animation (there actually is an animation for Swap Ammo that was removed when they changed it). The in-set justification would be that you swap in a magazine of superior rounds of some kind (hollow points, dumdum). The power "Aim" suggests that you're aiming, but it doesn't have to be named the same thing, especially on a set where Aiming isn't really thematically appropriate (just look at Sonic and Psy).

Just curious, have you compared to Fire Blast's ST damage? I am curious how Dual Wield, Execution and Piercing Round perform on the dps chart. Both Execution and Piercing are heavy hitters but also the slowest and I think Piercing debuffs resistance?

Piercing Round has 20s recharge so Dual Pistol may need Pistols in attack chain as well? That will be 4 ST attacks (Piercing is a narrow cone I know).

Can you figure out the math? With Aim and Without Aim into consideration.

I am actually fine with Swap Ammo to be honest...I mean sure, the secondary effects of the other Ammo Types could definitely be better, but I like the idea of them all the same. Once again, I think that the only things that really need changed to make DP a competative set are:


1.) Add DoT Fire Damage to Pistols (tier1 attack), equal to Dual Wield.
2.) Allow Piercing Rounds to KEEP it's -res even when using a "non-standard" ammo type.
4.) **Optional** Increase Piercing Rounds Cone by 15 degrees (for a total of 20 degrees, same as BroadSword's Head Splitter).
3.) And Either:

• Allow ES to cause Knock-Down even when using "non-standard" ammo...or
• Decrease ES's animation time, while still keeping it's same damage modifier.

I feel, that these changes would be enough without breaking the set and making it "too powerful" in any way. At the VERY least...it's a good place for the dev's to "start".

Oh, I didn't know Piercing Round loses its -Res when using a non-standard ammo. Interesting. Does this mean that Pistols lose its -Defense too if I put AH proc in it and use non-standard?

Yeah, I actually kinda like Ice Ammo. The slow are pretty good on a large team. I've tried Toxic ammo but I feel the damage is less for some reasons? I am not too sure about the -damage debuff. It's kinda hard to tell.

I agree with this. I love the aim/bu combo on my blasters but am OK with DP's swap ammo. I think the ability to change the secondary effects on the your powers is fantastic. KB/slows/extra damage from the click of a toggle....you can change your playstyle to better fit your situation and team. That's pretty darn handy if you ask me. Sure I'd love to see them enhanced in some way but I wouldn't say broken......some tweaking would be nice....as mentioned above.

This is kind of a specious argument. In order to debate the value of Dual Pistols, we must first presuppose that someone plays it. Avoiding the powerset altogether doesn't address the debate of the powers' efficacy; it just dodges the question.

What you seem to be forgetting is that Swap Ammo does do something. It grants access to the Swap Ammo toggles. Without the Swap Ammo Power, the toggles would either have to be granted as an Inherent, which I doubt would be acceptable to the devs, or they would have to be picked up separately as three additional powers, which I doubt would be acceptable to the players.

You've already made a great comparison to Swap Ammo; it is similar to the forms for Kheldians. Choosing Dark Nova grants your four additional powers which are usable only in Dark Nova form. The toggles come with the Swap Ammo power, and are unusable without it. (It's passive, so it can never be turned off, but I'm assuming when you exemplar down below the level you gained it it is lost)

The thing is, we are talking about an implementation here. The interface that you use to control the power, three toggles that you use to switch between the effects, doesn't change the effect of the power itself. Which is, like a Kheldian form, that you can change the characteristics of your attacks from one state to another.

Now, I complained at the time that without the actual Power having any function but to provide access, it had nothing it could be Enhanced for. Personally, I would just give it a +ToHit effect and let it be slotted. It would not be as good as Aim, but it would be similar to Targetting Drone, given that the magnitude would be lower due to the power being passive and not a toggle.

I suppose it would also be nice, since Targetting Drone grants a bonus to AR's Sniper Rifle in an attempt to balance out the lack of Aim+Build Up in the combo, if it gave the bonus to Executioner's Shot as well.

Now, I suppose that what you are saying is that the Swap Ammo power should be a click that has the same effect as Aim, IN ADDITION to providing access to the toggles. But if it did that, then providing access to the toggles would probably be too much functionality, since all the OTHER versions of Aim don't provide access to such toggles. So I guess what it comes down to is whether you find the Swap Ammo functionality important enough to merit its own power, or if you think it should be more inherent to the set, something like Dual Blades' combos.

Personally, I think it is somewhere in between. I wouldn't mind the power being given a click functionality like StrykerX's suggestion, or a lower magnitude version of Aim. I feel it would have to be within the concept of the power, though. Swapping ammo shouldn't make you more accurate for the next 10 seconds, that doesn't really make sense. I suppose the click power could represent loading a "special" ammo that will only apply to the next couple of shots, however.

Of course, if the click mechanism cannot be added without making it so the toggles will only be available while the click power is running, then I'm sure you would not want that. Swap Ammo may HAVE to be a passive power, in order for the toggles to be granted properly. Then again, you could add a fourth power, which would have a click effect instead of a toggle. Although I'm wondering if and how you could slot it. (Not knowing how Dual Pistols work, I don't know if the toggles show up but don't take slots, or if they don't even show up on the Enhancement screen at all)