Phantom Army vrs Gravity

So the other day I was talking with a buddy. We had a good debate about the power of illusion control versus gravity control. He was raving about how awesome Illusion is, and I asked him a question that stumped him. Wanted to get some views.

If phantom army had not taunt power and acted like voltaic sentinel would you still play illusion? and if so would it be worse then gravity?

This isn't an Illusion needs X troll. Or a gimp Illusion thread. I am just curious if making that one change would make Illusion control the worst set and have people climbing the bell towers so to speak. Its 1 power of 9, but it the set defining power and if it didn't allow you to tank the latest AV/GM would illusion still be OMG inspiring?

Hopefully this won't devolve into a flame war, but I brought my fire suit just in case

It sounds like you're thinking in a perma-PA vaccum

Permanent Phantom Army, with enough cooldown. In that single thought train, no taunt wouldn't really make a difference, as the Controller would just stay at range, dropping PA endlessly.

In the "Levelling up" world, which is most of the game, it would hurt the Controller rather badly, as their invincible, built-in tanks no longer control mobs, which means everything would go after the Controller immediately.

So yes, it would cripple Illusion in that regard.

Good question.

Phantom Army would still be valuable for pumping out the damage once it was slotted.
Illusion would still have the per-spawn control of Spectral Terror, long timer hold of Flash and enough single target holds to function, so it still covers all the usual Controller defensive bases.

I think without Phantom Army's tanking abilities it would still be a workable set. Slightly low on control and higher on damage, a lot like Gravity is now.

Even if PA lacked that taunt, which doesn't last that long after you cast PA. PA could still absorb an alpha, if an ambush is running down the hall at your team PA would still tie them up without that taunt if you could cast it before the ambush got too close.

You also have to keep in mind that Ill has that fear power which offers more control then anything Grav can bring. Wormhole is cool but it doesn't compare to a location drop fear power.

Edit: I misunderstood the question. If the aggro that PA generated got fed back to the troller then PA would suck big time. PA would be a power I'd skip, but I wouldn't be able to say Grav is better then Ill under those circumstances. I'd probably just feel the same way I feel now when playing Grav, I lack control and I can't believe I rolled this toon.

Seeing people bag on Gravity control makes me sad.

But to answer the question if PA didn't even have "it damages critter therefore critters attack PA, like Singularity. it would indeed suck worse then gravity. (not that it already doesn't, IMHO)

I'm reluctant to comment about this because the last few times I said something on this subject I got team-ganked. I'll just say that Illusion is what I think of as "circumstantially powerful" rather than "actually powerful," and the reason for it is largely connected to how boss fights in this game work. AVs are largely immune to contols and most debuffs but are universally brutish and approach all fights with a strategy of "charge and kill." Since they never do anything like run across the room to fire their death cannon or touch an electric node to heal themselves or whatever, any fight you have pretty much consists of standing in one place mashing buttons until whatever you are fighting dies. Phantom Army is perfect for that type of unstrategic fighting. Essentially what would wreck Illusion Control's dominance of the AV soloing field would be AV who actually did something beside charge you screaming.

Gravity meanwhile has some deep seated problems that keep it at the bottom of the Controller pile for me regardless of what happens with Illusion. Gravity simply does not compete as a viable set as of what is in the game at this time (fingers crossed for buffs). The biggest issue is the lack of a viable AoE mezz on quick recharge. That appears to be the role Dimension Shift was supposed to play, but the power is simply terrible and universally skipped. Wormhole would also be a viable option if it had a wider radius, but 15ft radius on a control is simply not big enough to matter.

Is the question whether Phantom Army alone is greater than the entire gravity set?
Maybe.

To specifically address the question you asked; yes I'd still find PA to be valuable even with no taunt. I find imps valuable. Illusion without PA isn't exactly weak. It's no earth control, but it has a spammable aoe fear with a huge tohit debuff, and confuse. Those two powers alone will let you take out a lot of spawns teamed or solo.

Tex, I think everyone would like more dynamic npc's across all ranks rather than just the higher echelon. But when I look at how the player base responds to cheat mode npcs like Illusionist Carnies it really makes me wonder how everyone would respond to (using your example) AV's entering a cheat mode that 100% ignores:
taunt - tanks aren't going to be happy.
all forms of mez - no more immobs for you! and it would override stacked holds.
all forms of soft control - can't let it be slowed during this period.

Because in order to ensure that an AV can "run over and push a button" it has to be immune to practically everything we do during that phase. A change like that will have an impact on a lot of players, but if your desire is specifically to target illusion (or PA) it will likely impact them toward the bottom end of the scale.

If there is nothing a player can do to stop the npc from pushing that button then they may as well just grant it the effect of the power while it stands there. It simply running across the room isn't making the fight any more dynamic.

To use an example that is already in game, picture the missions where you have to stop X from escaping. Now imagine if you couldn't affect that target with slows, holds, immobs, knockdown, taunt, etc and your only resolution was either deal enough damage or it escapes. I don't think many players would find that enjoyable, fair, or particularly involving.

Unless you are suggesting that during this phase it should only ignore taunt, or only the taunt generated from PA? But that would seem silly (and even more arbitrary than the ptod) as a team would just bring anyone with an immobilize power and trivialize the encounter by preventing it from activating the button.

I like Illusion more than Gravity only in that it is far better for AV/GM fights. Take that functionality away and I think Illusion would be considered inferior by many. Oh and Illusion looks cooler.

Interesting and thanks for the thoughts so far. Actually my title was misleading but more to attract attention. It was merely a debate on gravity versus illusion that made me ponder if Illusion was a 1 trick pony. I enjoy gravity and illusion albeit not as much as other control sets.

There are/were so many sets that had that 1 power that many people considered to be the crown jewel. The one set that even if the other 8 powers were mostly crappy (old Psi Assault) they played it. Then one the other 8 powers got a decent buff and the 1 OP'd power got reigned in, many people believed the set as a whole was unplayable. A concept which boggles my mind, but to each his own.

I would enjoy Illusion even if PA acted like Voltaic Sentinel, that is just personal opinion. Being that my Illusion/Rad has never fully attained Perma PA status, she is still formidable and has solo'd many AVs. However I know that most of it is from the awesomeness that PA is, and less so of my actual skill.

But thanks, for keeping a civil and rather polite discussion about what could conceivably be a Flame worthy subject.

The PA would basically be like Fire Imps if the taunt was removed, give or take. At that point I'd say they deserve have a health bar instead of invulnerable, be perma, and perhaps buffable too like the imps are. So... I'd still like

Being a player that has always liked Gravity and is hoping for improvements, I have a random thought regarding wormhole;

What if;

It acted more like a pet type power, where you place the entrance to the "wormhole" at a specific location and this "effect" persisted and periodically grabbed anything in the area and TP'ed it to the "exit" location. This could create some interesting tactics, especially if you place the "entrance" and "exit" very close to each other. Mobs could be continually "re-stunned" for the duration of the "pet-like" effect.