Criticals? (Old dog, new trick)

Stalkers get a Scrapper-like chance to crit now, instead of the "always crit if opponent is held" mechanism.



The Stalker chance scales with your team size though. I think it's somewhere close to 30% on an 8 man.

I'm still annoyed by that, and it's been about 2 years.

Not only did stalkers get the scrapper inherent, while keeping their own inherent, but they got a better version of it.

Still think scrappers should get the bonus to critical chance while teamed to even it out.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Oh AOEs have half the chance of critting.*



There's a list of all the powers here :
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...type.php?at=10


Assuming you mean PBAOEs Thunderstrike, Spin and Lightning Rod (which doesn't Crit as far as I know, but won't break hide) are the 3 I know of.

That's your opinion. You're welcome to it.

Until the Scrapper hp cap is 1606hp and they have Blaster base hp, my opinion is that your opinion is whiny and has no grounds for complaint at all. Scrappers still have higher base damage and a higher AT modifier for damage buffs, get more AoEs, have more hit points, and a higher hp cap. If it bothers you that much, just delete every Scrapper you have and make them Stalkers instead when Going Rogue comes out in a month and a half - because after all, according to you, the Stalker does what a Scrapper does, only better, right?

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Only from Hidden status - the random chance to critical from outside hidden status is the same regardless of whether the attack is an AoE or not. And Lightning Rod doesn't critical, but since it's a pet summon it doesn't break hidden status either.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I knew about the Lightning Rod thing but didn't know about the unaffected crits for AOEs in non-hidden play. That's interesting for my Elec/Nin.

I am never going to let the devs forget that I told them they would rue the day they created the concept of archetypal inherents just to put a little icon on people's buff bars and avoid the need to update the damn manual. They managed to turn a game balance patch into a reward.

I wonder if they called the IH-toggle change the "Regeneration inherent" if everyone would have demanded an equal one of those for themselves also.

Besides, crits aren't just possessed by Scrappers and Stalkers. Containment is a crit. Scourge is a crit. The notion of "double damage under certain conditions" is all over the place.

Scrappers jealous of Stalkers?

*sits back in chair with smug grin*

Stalkers have lower base damage, less AoE, and are substantially squishier (about 200 HP lower base and 800 HP lower cap) than Scrappers. Additionally, the "increased crit rate with larger team size" only applies to teammates that are within a relatively small (30 feet I think) radius. I think I'd call that pretty even.

Oh, and on topic: In both PvE and PvP it's actually possible for an attack to critical more than once if more than one condition for a critical is met.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Which is hilarious to both watch and do, by the way.

Oh, well if it's perfectly fair for stalkers to get that....let's give Corruptors Defiance too, on top of the Scourge they already have.

- Stalkers already had the ability to land an automatic critical hit any time they wanted to.
- Scrappers have a 5-15% chance to land a critical that is completely beyond their control.

- Stalkers then got a higher chance to crit at any time, and when teammates are in range that chance substantially increases to a maximum of around 30%.
- Scrappers still have a 5-15% chance to land a critical that is beyond their control, whether there are any teammates nearby or not.

It doesn't bother me enough to go post thread after thread complaining about it, or rage-delete my scrappers because stalkers are "better". I said it annoys me, there's a BIG difference between simply stating that I'm annoyed by something and whining about it.

Lets take something that annoys you about the game and tell you that you're being whiny and have no right to complain and see how YOU feel about it. You said I'm entitled to my opinion, and that your opinion was that I am being whiny. My opinion of that is that you are being a self-righteous ***, and have no business telling me what I'm supposed to think of something, just because you don't see a problem with it.

Guess what? I'm entitled to that opinion too.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Now you know that this isn't true - if Stalkers could land an automatic critical any time they wanted, why wouldn't they hit with nothing but? They had (and have) an automatic critical from hidden status on single target attack (with no more than a 50% chance to critical from hidden status with an AoE), and Placate to drop them into hidden status again. Hidden status drops if they're hit, if they miss with an attack other than Assassin's Strike, or if they click a glowie, and other than Placate they have only their defense to keep them from getting hit again after a mob has been aggroed, so you're certainly not "guaranteed" a critical "any time [you] want to."

They also had a 20% chance to critical on held or sleeping targets outside of hidden status, which still exists in PvP and was removed and replaced by the 10% scaling critical for PvE.

And more hit points, a higher hit point cap, higher base damage, higher self-damage buffs, the same defense modifiers, at least one more damage AoE in every primary except for Electric Melee, and a utility power in each secondary...

...when you give up some or all of those, you may have a point. I posit that you're overlooking all of the benefits that Scrappers have over Stalkers solely for the sake of trying to be annoyed, rather than paying any attention to inter-AT balance at all, where you'd probably find out that Scrappers are still way ahead of Stalkers in the "I can play like a complete idiot and still get away with it because the AT is that brainless" category. So, yes. Whiny. You want to have your cake and eat it, too.



...in order to improve their performance on teams, which was a common complaint since they tend to give up a little AoE damage, and were completely eclipsed by Brutes in the "melee damage" role on villain teams. The demoralize effect was also added as well.

And if they needed more than that, they probably would've gotten it by now.

Okay, let's say that you don't agree with my assessment of why I said the first post was whiny (the reasoning is listed in both my previous post, and drawn out more into this one - you're completely ignoring balance to complain about another AT getting a buff, and seem to be saying that "I need one too!"). So what's your justification for this post, then?

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Simply the fact that I took offense to being told what amounts to "Shut up and stop whining" for doing nothing more than mention that I was annoyed by something.

I didn't go off on a long tangent. I didn't say it made scrappers obsolete, or that stalkers didn't need a buff. In fact, I agreed at the time that the buff to stalkers was both needed and justified.

I took exception to one point: The fact that stalkers got random criticals, just like scrappers, only they got a better base chance for it to happen. And they got an increase to that chance based on teammate proximity.

The random crits, I had no issue with. Even the teammate proximity buff I could accept. (It makes sense thematically, they're taking advantage of their opponents' distraction to hit a vital point) What annoyed me was the superior base chance of critting they got. Had they gotten the exact same chance to crit as scrappers, I would have been okay with it. Similarly, if they had buffed scrappers' chance to crit to match, I would have had no issue.

As it is, it feels kind of like they took away the uniqueness by giving stalkers a copy of the scrapper inherent, while letting them keep the majority of their own inherent. I would be just as annoyed if they gave Dominators Containment while letting them keep Domination, or giving blasters both versions of Defiance simultaneously, or giving Corruptors both Scourge and Vigilance.

And I'm not even THAT annoyed about it. I hadn't even thought about it for quite a while until I read this thread. I've mentioned it maybe twice in passing in the last year or so.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

I found that scrappers are inherently tougher, and have better versions of the same powers, so it is more than balanced out.

Now wanting that "uniqueness" - despite being incorrect (see Arcanaville's post in the thread as to why... criticals are hardly "unique") - I can understand. It's why I wanted something different as opposed to "moar damage" for a Defender buff.

But even then, Scrappers still never gave anything up when Stalkers were buffed - certainly they didn't give up any "uniqueness", since they still are the only AT occupying that "medium" hp/survivability level (EATs have the same cap but lower base), and still offer the highest melee damage without any extra clauses such as needing to build Fury, external buffs, or having to critical more often to do similar or higher damage.

Honestly, regarding Scrappers and Brutes I think it's probably best to just sit down and be quiet - I don't think any changes to either of those ATs as a whole will be buffs (although intra-AT balance passes for certain sets may end up that way). Both are already ahead of the curve compared to the ATs that have been getting buffed...

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Well, until stalkers got it, that particular form of criticals was unique.

Containment is a form of critical...but your opponent must be mezzed in some fashion in order for it to work.

Scourge is a form of critical....that can only happen when your opponent is at 50% health or less.

Assassination is a form of critical.....but you must be in Hide, or your opponent mezzed in order for it to work.

Domination is basically a form of critical hold....but you must fill up a bar by using mezzes and attacking to get the benefit of it.

VEATS get a stealth strike that is essentially a variant of Assassination....it requires you to be stealthed to use it.

Scrappers had the only critical that required no preexisting conditions to be met in order to work. You just attacked, and sometimes a crit would happen. Their particular form of criticals was unique to them alone....until stalkers got the same mechanic.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Aren't all forms of critical unique? Scrapper crits don't scale with team or work from hide.

Or, to put it another way, suppose Corruptor scourge didn't range from 0% to 100% with target health, but instead from 5% to 100% with target health, with the absolute floor for scourge chance at 5% instead of zero. Would that imply that Corruptors just got the Scrapper crit, plus a bonus on top?

You do realize that when the game launched, Scrappers didn't crit at all? Scrappers got the ability to crit added in order to differentiate themselves from Tankers - basically, to give people a reason to play Scrappers instead of Tankers. There are two major reasons Stalkers got a revamp to the way their crits work:

1. Team usefulness. As an AT who performs best by dealing massive damage to single hard targets upfront (as they're by far the squishiest melee AT), they were eclipsed both in AoE output and damage by Brutes - Stalkers just weren't all that popular. The crit changes helped boost that by improving their performance on teams, thus addressing one of the major complaints about the AT.

2. While the Stalker buffs happened around I11, VEATs were on the table at that time, probably in the design stage. Someone decided some VEATs would have the capability to crit from a hidden state (Banes and Night Widows/Fortunatas), which meant they were essentially Stalkers without AS, but with more AoE, more control, more team buff ability, and a higher HP cap and survivability threshold (higher resistance cap and higher base regen/recovery). Like Scrappers getting criticals to differentiate them from Tankers, Stalkers also had their critical system overhauled to differentiate them from the upcoming VEATs.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

And Stalker's Stealth Strike was unique to them until VEATs were introduced. Wah?

Although Scrappers didn't crit, some scrapper powers did: Eagle's Claw and Headsplitter in particular used to crit. I also believe Full Auto used to "crit" from the beginning too. In giving "Scrappers" the ability to crit, you could say that took away some of the unique nature of those powersets. So Scrappers can't really complain if other things got criticals later. They really stole crits first.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.