Off the wall Suggestions (Possible CoX2)
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2010-06-17 09:32 in Suggestions and Ideas
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No. It doesn't balance out at all. A melee character generally balances defenses against lack of ranged attacks, while a ranged character sacrifices personal defense for distance. Why does this work? Ranged Attacks from NPCs do Less damage than Melee attacks from NPCs. With a Range Penalty you encourage the Blasters to use Melee attacks. Being in Melee means more incoming damage with no defenses. Meanwhile Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, and Masterminds have no melee attacks (Outside of the new Demon summoning powerset) and find all of their attack and control powers are suddenly less accurate with no net gain. The two ATs you're thinking of which mix melee and range are Dominators and Blasters, both of whom also have control effects (Except Energy Manipulation blasters.) |
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Ok I was running my latest tank last night and had a few ideas about some of the basic game mechanics.
1. Make accuracy range-based: Missing a stationary object with no shields is just ridiculous. I understand the reasoning, but it can be very immersion-breaking. Of course, range-based accuracy would be affected by to-hit and -to-hit powers, but in this case you would need to stack debuffs to cause a melee power to miss consistanly. This may seem to give melee characters an advantage, but considering they are already without significant range power and the fact that most ranged characters have a melee secondary, it really does balance out. |
Then again 3 of the 4 EATs also have both melee and ranged attacks... But again, it doesn't balance out. It creates a pointless accuracy disparity.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
2. Tie recharge rate to endurance: This eliminates the need for recharge enhancements all together since, in this case, the more endurance you have, the faster your powers recharge. It's basically if you are tired, you tend to react slowers, meaning your powers recharge slower. Although toggles would require a bit of a discount, it would also mean that there would be almost no wait for toggle to recharge if your endurance is already full.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
3. New targeting features: Instead of a boxed recticle, the target is highlighted when the blue hand passes over it. This would give you more accurate target selection in a crowded battlefields. Another new feature would be the ability to select multiple targets at once. By right-clicking over an area of targets, you highlight all of them allowing you to either single-target the one closest to you in that group until they are all defeated, or AoE the entire group repeatedly. This is still effected by the limitations of the number of targets a power can effect at once.
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Overall? Unsigned.
-Rachel-
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*looks at trash can in corner of office cube*|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Missing a stationary object with no shields is just ridiculous.
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*wads up paper*
*shoots*
*misses*
This happens at least 5 times a day for me. I completely understand the possibility of missing a stationary object.
I like the way they've implemented all these things you're trying to "fix." Thanks, but no thanks.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Nothing is presumed "stationary" except mezzed and inanimate objects. Animate targets are usually presumed to be attempting to block or dodge you in some way, and the mechanics are too simplified to allow for very complex if...then hit logic.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Ok I was running my latest tank last night and had a few ideas about some of the basic game mechanics.
1. Make accuracy range-based: Missing a stationary object with no shields is just ridiculous. I understand the reasoning, but it can be very immersion-breaking. Of course, range-based accuracy would be affected by to-hit and -to-hit powers, but in this case you would need to stack debuffs to cause a melee power to miss consistanly. This may seem to give melee characters an advantage, but considering they are already without significant range power and the fact that most ranged characters have a melee secondary, it really does balance out. |
Also, there are two kinds of "miss" in CoH (well, three actually). There's evasive misses (I dodge your strike) and there's deflections (you hit, but in a way that the attack bounces off for no effect) that are handled more or less identically by the game engine (there's also "absorption" which is conceptually that the attack lands, but in a way that the target is so immune to at that moment that it might as well have not done anything - MoG is a power with those form of conceptual defense).
When you are really close to a target, it *might* make it easier to hit the target if it is trying to evade you (but even that has caveats: it would also make it potentially easier for a Katana character to parry you, or a Super Reflexes character to dodge or interfere with the attack), but it is less likely to make it easier to avoid a deflection (and would have no effect on an absorption). That makes this a potentially very complex can of worms to open. A long time ago I posted a thread called Make Range Mean Something which proposed a similar accuracy/range effect, but it only dealt with the issue of attacker accuracy, not defender defense.
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| 2. Tie recharge rate to endurance: This eliminates the need for recharge enhancements all together since, in this case, the more endurance you have, the faster your powers recharge. It's basically if you are tired, you tend to react slowers, meaning your powers recharge slower. Although toggles would require a bit of a discount, it would also mean that there would be almost no wait for toggle to recharge if your endurance is already full. |
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| 3. New targeting features: Instead of a boxed recticle, the target is highlighted when the blue hand passes over it. This would give you more accurate target selection in a crowded battlefields. Another new feature would be the ability to select multiple targets at once. By right-clicking over an area of targets, you highlight all of them allowing you to either single-target the one closest to you in that group until they are all defeated, or AoE the entire group repeatedly. This is still effected by the limitations of the number of targets a power can effect at once. |
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@Steam, I understand that builds would need a major overhaul from slotting recharge to all end, thats the point. @Archanaville, If you look at Novas as they stand now, most of the End drain is mittigated through tactics when soloing and almost completely mittigated with team support.
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The way I deal with Nova's crash is I pop a cab and hit conserve power, unless I've remembered to hit conserve power *before* using Nova (which to be honest I often forget to do). That works fine now because I only need enough endurance to carry me through the crash before normal recovery kicks back in. With your suggestion in force, this would no longer be viable except by using enough or strong enough cabs to return to near full endurance (or close enough to negate the recharge penalty).|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
f you look at Novas as they stand now, most of the End drain is mittigated through tactics when soloing and almost completely mittigated with team support.
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Plus, now that I think about, it seems there's only two possibilities here. Either when you are full endurance you are recharging much faster than you are now, or else when you are at full endurance you're only recharging at normal rate or some moderate level above that. If the latter, people are still going to want to slot powers for recharge, because recharge slotting can cut recharge approximately in half. Being unable to do that would be a substantial nerf in many areas. But contrawise, if having full endurance causes your normal recharge to be at or superior to maximal recharge slotting, that would give an gigantic benefit to endurance management powers. Not only would stamina go from something that most people see as necessary to something everyone would see as necessary, most people would start saying that quick recovery plus stamina was necessary, because there would be a very strong penalty for not staying pegged at full endurance.
With the current mechanics, players can attempt to budget their endurance expenditures. With the proposed ones, every point you spend has negative consequences, and there is no such thing as freely time-shifting endurance expenditures. I don't think I like where that ultimately goes without a major rethink on what everything costs in endurance. Most things - particularly most attacks - seem to cost way too much for this type of mechanic to be practical.
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/pictures BS scrapper facing can of worms that has popped Elude
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That makes this a potentially very complex can of worms to open.
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Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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And what about the other points raised? The titanic disparity in accuracy for classes that don't have melee attacks of any kind? Nothing to say to that?|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
@Steam, I understand that builds would need a major overhaul from slotting recharge to all end, thats the point.
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We're not talking about a large overhaul of the engine here. We're talking about abject imbalance and rampant engine re-writing creating an "Elite" cadre of ATs and a few "Useless" ones.
-Rachel-
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I have to agree with Steam, here.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
We're not talking about a large overhaul of the engine here. We're talking about abject imbalance and rampant engine re-writing creating an "Elite" cadre of ATs and a few "Useless" ones.
-Rachel- |
Further, from a strictly roleplaying perspective, it makes sense to me that characters that use ranged attacks have honed those abililities to such a degree that they should not suffer an attack penalty for it.
Think about it like this. An archer spends an awful lot of time practicing so that he can hit that bullseye from 200 feet. A decent rifleman does the same so he can do it from 300 yards. Why, suddenly, would we want to tell them that all their time spent honing their skills has been retconned and they're gimped beyond playability? It makes no sense to me whatsoever, and it stretches the bounds of both believability and justifiability.
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The specific way I addressed this in Make Range Mean Something was to make accuracy dependent on relative range. I forget the exact numbers, but I believe they were something like attacks had an intrinsic 20% accuracy bonus when fired within 50% of maximum range, normal accuracy when fired up to 90% of maximum range, -10% accuracy out to normal maximum range, and -25% accuracy out to 1.2x their originally designed maximum range. And these numbers would follow range slotting, so someone that slotted an attack for range would not only be increasing their range, they would be increasing their accuracy at long range by bringing those targets deeper into the range envelope.|
Originally Posted by TyrantMikey
I have to agree with Steam, here.
Further, from a strictly roleplaying perspective, it makes sense to me that characters that use ranged attacks have honed those abililities to such a degree that they should not suffer an attack penalty for it. Think about it like this. An archer spends an awful lot of time practicing so that he can hit that bullseye from 200 feet. A decent rifleman does the same so he can do it from 300 yards. Why, suddenly, would we want to tell them that all their time spent honing their skills has been retconned and they're gimped beyond playability? It makes no sense to me whatsoever, and it stretches the bounds of both believability and justifiability. |
In this case, to gain the range bonus with a melee attack (currently seven feet of range) you need to be within 3.5 feet of the target. But a ranged attacker using an 80 foot range attack could get that same bonus just by being within 40 feet of the target. Today, I would probably make the extreme range penalty higher due to the proliferation of accuracy buffs that could saturate it out, and I would make them separate accuracy multipliers rather than accuracy strength buffs, but the basic idea is probably still sound.
And if you buy that, I also have an accuracy-based critical system to sell you.
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I really hadn't thought that much into the idea, beyond the basic concept, but the system you suggest seems sound.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The specific way I addressed this in Make Range Mean Something was to make accuracy dependent on relative range. I forget the exact numbers, but I believe they were something like attacks had an intrinsic 20% accuracy bonus when fired within 50% of maximum range, normal accuracy when fired up to 90% of maximum range, -10% accuracy out to normal maximum range, and -25% accuracy out to 1.2x their originally designed maximum range. And these numbers would follow range slotting, so someone that slotted an attack for range would not only be increasing their range, they would be increasing their accuracy at long range by bringing those targets deeper into the range envelope.
In this case, to gain the range bonus with a melee attack (currently seven feet of range) you need to be within 3.5 feet of the target. But a ranged attacker using an 80 foot range attack could get that same bonus just by being within 40 feet of the target. Today, I would probably make the extreme range penalty higher due to the proliferation of accuracy buffs that could saturate it out, and I would make them separate accuracy multipliers rather than accuracy strength buffs, but the basic idea is probably still sound. And if you buy that, I also have an accuracy-based critical system to sell you. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I always thought it would be interesting to make accuracy vary with a toon's velocity and range.
I have never liked the movement speed penalty that is applied when you attack, but I understand that was added to prevent running by at high speed, firing off a melee attack, then superspeeding out of range.
I've also never liked how you can be right next to someone and miss them with your axe.
So the idea would be, if you are very still, you can be extremely accurate. (think sniper at long range). Once you start moving around, your accuracy decreases. If you are moving really fast, you would be lucky to hit anything.
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Once upon a time flight had an accuracy debuff to simulate an effect similar to this. Interestingly Superspeed didn't, probably because conceptually someone with superspeed is moving "normally" compared to their perceptions and wouldn't have their accuracy thrown off by that motion. It did at one time have a defense buff, though, to simulate making it harder to hit a fast moving target (although that was extinguished in beta, or soon after launch).
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Originally Posted by GravityGiggler
I always thought it would be interesting to make accuracy vary with a toon's velocity and range.
I have never liked the movement speed penalty that is applied when you attack, but I understand that was added to prevent running by at high speed, firing off a melee attack, then superspeeding out of range. I've also never liked how you can be right next to someone and miss them with your axe. So the idea would be, if you are very still, you can be extremely accurate. (think sniper at long range). Once you start moving around, your accuracy decreases. If you are moving really fast, you would be lucky to hit anything. |
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Okay, I've seen a few suggestions for changing the way accuracy, range, defense and motion work together.
But there's still a problem.
Assuming such sweeping changes were made, you'd have tons of toons out there that had been slotted and played according to the old system for anywhere from a few days to years.
Changes of this magnitude would require not only the distribution of free respecs, but influence in order to allow those toons who had invested heavily in IOs or specific slotting to recoup their losses as they swapped out accuracy for range (or vice versa). As anyone who's done a respec knows, the reimbursement costs for IO enhancements is frequently far less than what it actually cost you to craft them.
To date, I haven't seen the devs implement any change so egregious that it required both a respec and a gift of influence.
Even if the gift of influence were not permitted, it would likely take characters multiple iterations to correct their builds to a point where they felt that they were finally combat efficient. While some may argue that free respecs are easy to come by (such as Veterans Rewards and the like), I would argue in turn that a player should never be forced to use one of his own respecs due to a dev mandated change of this kind. Especially when it might require several respecs to correct the problems introduced by it.
I think that's where the "(Possible CoX2)" comes in.
Dec out.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And if you buy that, I also have an accuracy-based critical system to sell you.
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On the idea of criticals, I always thought it would have been cool if everyone can critical (just that maybe certain classes (i.e. Scrappers and Stalkers) can do it better in some way) and that those criticals could be based on the nature of the powers by taking a D&D type approach.
For weapons, like swords (BS/Katana), they'd be the basis for comparison and crit normally for normal damage. Then you go into bigger/heavy weapons, like Assault Rifle, Axe, Mace and Scythe (*we need this weapon!*) where they crit less often but do more damage when you do. Smaller/light weapons (archery, dual pistols, dual blades, claws) would basically crit for normal damage like swords but crit more often which is counter balanced by just having lower base damage. Unarmed (super strength and martial arts) would crit as often as the light/small weapons but their crits do less than normal; balanced by the fact the set is moderate to heavy on the base dmg.
With that established, branch off into the other powers and help define their nature with the new crit system. Spines might take the nature of the heavy weapons but improving ToHit improves crit damage. Fire powers take their crit nature from the middle sword family but can also crit their DoT. Dark powers could take theirs from the unarmed family but also may crit the debuffs they apply.
etc. so-on and so-forth...
I have to vote against the proposed accuracy changes based on range. Yes, it's true that things closer to you should be easier to hit... Sometimes. But if we go with a more realistic approach, we have to apply the corresponding penalty, as well - melee penalty. Typically, rangers in many older RPGs were very good at a distance, but were either unable to fire in melee at all, or did so at an extreme penalty. Why? Think about it for a second.
Say you have a bow. At a very long range, you're not going to hit crap. You have wind to deal with, a complex ballistic trajectory, a long travel time, etc. At about medium range, a good archer is going to be able to hit. At point-blank range... A bow can't even fire at point-blank range, and the Mythbusters already demonstrated a sword-wielder able to deflect an arrow and close in before an archer could fire a second one.
Say you have a rifle. It should be good for a few hundred yards, but bets at closer ranges. But come TOO close and the rifle becomes very difficult to use. Think of your classic Aliens scenario where a bunch of marines are trying to shoot at moving targets at about 15-20 feet away. It's hard to keep a target within line of sight, let alone target a rifle that close in. And at point-blank range, an enemy can close in to you PAST the length of your rifle.
Realism has never been a major concern of mine. I enjoy arcade-style combat mechanics, and I'd sooner deal with absolute maximal ranges than with accuracy diminishing over distance.
I also have to vote against tying recharge to endurance. This has the potential to create such a massive cascading failure danger it's not even funny. As you start dying, you need to attack faster to survive. Currently, you can just cost yourself a lot of endurance, but that's OK. Endurance recovers. Under such a system, you're screwed. If you start fighting faster to survive, you will expend endurance, causing you to attack slower, causing you to be able to defend yourself that much less. This is one step removed from diminishing power effects as your health decreases.
I do not support any system that makes the player weaker based on the exhaustion of any one particular stat. I can live with running out of endurance and toggles shutting down, but that's RUNNING OUT, not diminishing.
Besides, endurance is not, strictly speaking, a representation of how tired the person is, not unless you want to postulate that the only limiting factor to how long one can fire a rifle is how long one has the strength to pull the trigger. Endurance is a catch-all mechanic designed to represent a character's ability to endure combat and fuel his actions. Humans do this via oxygen and energy. Robots, on the other hand, may well do so via literal fuel or battery energy, and weapon-based characters may do so via ammo stocks. The mechanic is, indeed, designed to best mimic energy, but that doesn't mean this is the ONLY thing it's supposed to mimic.
By the way, I'm still a great fan of Arcana's old off-hand suggestion "ammo" replacing endurance as a power use balancing mechanic.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I *LOVE* this idea. Retrofitting the game to fit this now would be horrific and cause too much uproar with existing builds... but for a possible CoX2? Sold.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
2. Tie recharge rate to endurance: This eliminates the need for recharge enhancements all together since, in this case, the more endurance you have, the faster your powers recharge. It's basically if you are tired, you tend to react slowers, meaning your powers recharge slower. Although toggles would require a bit of a discount, it would also mean that there would be almost no wait for toggle to recharge if your endurance is already full.
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The reason I love it so much is a simple one. Having powers recharge slower when you have less endurance means you can't attack as often - so you're actively encouraged into letting your endurance build back up a little. I imagine it would be tricky to balance the endurance/recharge ratio so that it works this way, though.
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"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
Ok I was running my latest tank last night and had a few ideas about some of the basic game mechanics.
1. Make accuracy range-based: Missing a stationary object with no shields is just ridiculous. I understand the reasoning, but it can be very immersion-breaking. Of course, range-based accuracy would be affected by to-hit and -to-hit powers, but in this case you would need to stack debuffs to cause a melee power to miss consistanly. This may seem to give melee characters an advantage, but considering they are already without significant range power and the fact that most ranged characters have a melee secondary, it really does balance out.
2. Tie recharge rate to endurance: This eliminates the need for recharge enhancements all together since, in this case, the more endurance you have, the faster your powers recharge. It's basically if you are tired, you tend to react slowers, meaning your powers recharge slower. Although toggles would require a bit of a discount, it would also mean that there would be almost no wait for toggle to recharge if your endurance is already full.
3. New targeting features: Instead of a boxed recticle, the target is highlighted when the blue hand passes over it. This would give you more accurate target selection in a crowded battlefields. Another new feature would be the ability to select multiple targets at once. By right-clicking over an area of targets, you highlight all of them allowing you to either single-target the one closest to you in that group until they are all defeated, or AoE the entire group repeatedly. This is still effected by the limitations of the number of targets a power can effect at once.
Like I said, off the wall, but streamlining the way we play can't be all bad.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."