Any brute secondary can be made into a tanking one. Invulnerability does well as it is a bag of both defense and resists. WP does even more, but it can sometimes be less than ideal for "tanking" because of its notably weaker taunt aura. In fact, I believe it is bottom rung for taunt duration. Outside of Energy Aura which lacks a taunt aura altogether.
If you want to avoid resist based secondaries with dmg auras, that rules out /FA, /DA, and /ELA. /Shield and /stone armor are currently incompatible, so that leaves just SR, WP, and Inv. I prefer inv out of the three because it is strong against most kinds of damage in the game and has the strongest taunt duration of the three mentioned. Having multilayered mitigation through Resists, Defence, and Boosted Hit Points is nothing to scoff at.
Now that I think of it, I even have a Claws/Inv at 50 that I do enjoy. Oddly enough, when I play /inv on a brute, I always find myself wishing I had done a secondary with a damage aura. Claws are quick, but I know I would be even faster with Claws and a dmg aura melting mobs.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Brute SR also benefits from the higher base HP compared to its scrapper brother. Not only is that a plus in and of itself, but it also means that you'll get more mileage out of the passive scaling dam-res within the passives.
I've been begging Castle since SR got ported over to give the taunt aura in evasion to scrappers. He throws rotten carcasses at me and laughs maniacally every time I make the request. 
Anyway, would SR work? Oh hell yea. Between Taunt, Evasion's taunt, Spin, Eviscerate and Shockwave, you will be able to lock down some serious aggro, and once you get to the softcap the only thing you'll really need to worry about are attacks that lack a positional component like a few of the psi attacks.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Bill, I've heard that SR is absolutely hideous on the End bar. Is that true? In terms of overall endurance usage, how does it compare to some of the other secondaries? Just trying to figure out if I should focus heavily on End recovery bonuses for the /SR Brute idea knocking around in my head.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Brute SR also benefits from the higher base HP compared to its scrapper brother. Not only is that a plus in and of itself, but it also means that you'll get more mileage out of the passive scaling dam-res within the passives.
I've been begging Castle since SR got ported over to give the taunt aura in evasion to scrappers. He throws rotten carcasses at me and laughs maniacally every time I make the request. Anyway, would SR work? Oh hell yea. Between Taunt, Evasion's taunt, Spin, Eviscerate and Shockwave, you will be able to lock down some serious aggro, and once you get to the softcap the only thing you'll really need to worry about are attacks that lack a positional component like a few of the psi attacks. |
Edit: I just mucked around a bit in Mids, and holy hell! 30% defense with just SO's? And that's without Weave! I don't care about the end usage, I'll make it work!
Nah, SR has no endurance problems, it's downright average in that regard.
I think for what you're looking for, Claws/Invuln will be a very good choice.
SR does have it's benefits, and reaching softcap to all positions will see you highly survivable.
However, if I were to recommend someone a set for "tanking" purpose I would recommend Invuln over SR due to layered defenses.
Even on my softcapped SD brutes, softcapped to all positions with added Hit Points and Resistances above what SR has - eventually they get hard enough to make pretty solid dents.
Now, I do in fact "tank" on those Brutes, and you could do the same on a softcapped SR - but an Invuln Brute will on the whole be alot sturdier for most of the game's content.
As a note, you can tank on a Willpower brute as well and I would put my Willpower Brute against an Invuln brute and say that most advantages or disadvantages for each will be roughly equalized for the vast majority of content - with darkest night (and the endurance to run it) even tanking the ITF is no issue. It is however, a very expensive build.
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So the Invulnerability build is less expensive? I'm more looking for something that I can tank with 1-50 (and beyond), rather than once I've got a 1bil IO set going. If it's the latter I'll quit before I ever get to that point because I simply won't be enjoying myself. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
It is however, a very expensive build.
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What sort of defenses can Invulnerability offer? Is it simple enough to get close to the softcap? I should probably pick up Tough and Weave on that build. I'm kinda just looking for a tanker that sacrifices a bit of defense for incredible offense. I think that's what I can pull together with a /Inv Brute. My favorite part about Invul right now, besides the look, is that it has the best taunt aura of the three (WP, SR, and Inv). What are its downfalls? Where does it pale in comparison to the other two? I want to make sure I'm making the right choice. With Tough and Weave running on top of all the /Inv toggles am I gonna need to slot quite a bit of END reduction?
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Invuln won't cap defenses with just SO's but with few exceptions most attacks have a smashing lethal component and you can get to or damn close to the resist cap for that attack type with SO's|
Originally Posted by Athanatosis
So the Invulnerability build is less expensive? I'm more looking for something that I can tank with 1-50 (and beyond), rather than once I've got a 1bil IO set going. If it's the latter I'll quit before I ever get to that point because I simply won't be enjoying myself.
What sort of defenses can Invulnerability offer? Is it simple enough to get close to the softcap? I should probably pick up Tough and Weave on that build. I'm kinda just looking for a tanker that sacrifices a bit of defense for incredible offense. I think that's what I can pull together with a /Inv Brute. My favorite part about Invul right now, besides the look, is that it has the best taunt aura of the three (WP, SR, and Inv). What are its downfalls? Where does it pale in comparison to the other two? I want to make sure I'm making the right choice. With Tough and Weave running on top of all the /Inv toggles am I gonna need to slot quite a bit of END reduction? |
Invuln has 4 toggles in the set and then tough/weave if you add those in.. Inv by itself imho is light on endurance because of the passives.
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Is Tough and Weave going to be necessary or does Invulnerability hold its own?
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Originally Posted by DJ_Onslaught
Invuln won't cap defenses with just SO's but with few exceptions most attacks have a smashing lethal component and you can get to or damn close to the resist cap for that attack type with SO's
Invuln has 4 toggles in the set and then tough/weave if you add those in.. Inv by itself imho is light on endurance because of the passives. |
I would honestly consider tough/weave necessary on both SR and Inv.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I take Tough and Weave on my SR characters, but I only use Tough for a place to slot a certain +3% Def IO. Running it seems a waste to me, given that I rarely get hit and when I do Tough is only a ~15% (is it even that much?) damage reduction on S/L damage. Not that it isn't helpful, I just have a hard time justifying it to myself. Then again, if my characters weren't all Dark Melee with Siphon Life, my feelings might be different.|
Originally Posted by Athanatosis
Is Tough and Weave going to be necessary or does Invulnerability hold its own?
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edit: on Invulnerability, I took and run both. I only have one Inv character but Tough and Weave seemed to really help.
Inv would still be my choice... though the taunt aura on SR is nice
In reference to Tough and Weave, nobody mentioned WP. It doesn't need either of them? Or maybe it just doesn't benefit as much from them.
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I appreciate your input but it's left me curious as to why you feel this way!|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Inv would still be my choice... though the taunt aura on SR is nice
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EDIT: I mean, why say the taunt aura on SR is nice if the one in Invuln is nicer? It is, isn't it?
Tough and weave will both help invuln alot since it runs layered defenses aka both resists and defense.
If you're combining with claws, be careful with shockwave if you go invul, or you get the "ah, I've just shockwaved them out of invincibility radius and they've all turned round and shot me with their energy blasts" situation. Can be embarrassing.
IMO claws/SR is cheaper to get to a good level of performance, but if you have the cash to spend, claws/invul will be better.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
pair it with whatever you want, once you get to 50 and start IOing, you can make yourself feel "tanky" all you want.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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I'm sure this is true, but the reason I'm asking these questions in the first place is more because if I don't get the feeling I want from a powerset on the way to 50 I'm not going to get it to 50 at all. Expensive IO sets aside, I want a secondary that can take alpha and hold aggro with SOs or generic IOs (possibly a few inexpensive set bonuses on the way).
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
pair it with whatever you want, once you get to 50 and start IOing, you can make yourself feel "tanky" all you want.
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Originally Posted by Athanatosis
In reference to Tough and Weave, nobody mentioned WP. It doesn't need either of them? Or maybe it just doesn't benefit as much from them.
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Tough works nicely with WP, since it goes on top of the S/L resistance you get in WP. Weave goes on top of the E/N/F/C defense you get but unlike say SR where you're layering it on top of high defenses from the set it's not as useful numerically. 5% on top of 16%ish isn't as nice as 5% on top of 30%ish due to how you calculate the gain from the final number (5% on top of 40% is basically doubling how hard it is to kill you for example). The closer to the caps you are the better stacking a wee bit more works in general for Defense and Resistance.
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Well no, Willpower on just SOs will do very well for most of the game's content.|
Originally Posted by Athanatosis
So the Invulnerability build is less expensive? I'm more looking for something that I can tank with 1-50 (and beyond), rather than once I've got a 1bil IO set going. If it's the latter I'll quit before I ever get to that point because I simply won't be enjoying myself.
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I was referring to tanking the ITF, which will require a bit more investment on a Willpower brute - unless your team goes at a very safe and slow pace, with lots of support (buffs/debuffs).
An Invuln build, at least the way I would build it, could be every bit as expensive as a Willpower build.
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Originally Posted by Athanatosis
Is Tough and Weave going to be necessary or does Invulnerability hold its own?
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You should probably pick up tough and weave on most Brutes that you ever plan to "Tank" with. Both Invuln and Willpower love Tough and Weave.
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Originally Posted by Athanatosis
In reference to Tough and Weave, nobody mentioned WP. It doesn't need either of them? Or maybe it just doesn't benefit as much from them.
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At some point, you'll need to just take the plunge and pick one.
Invuln: High defenses and very high SM/L resistances, with a self heal that acts as a perma-possible +HP bonus and a fantastic taunt aura.
Willpower: Solid resistances, some typed defenses to build off of with IOs, and "through the roof" regeneration and end recovery with a very solid +HP auto power.
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Originally Posted by Athanatosis
EDIT: I mean, why say the taunt aura on SR is nice if the one in Invuln is nicer? It is, isn't it?
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How does this leveling build look? It uses level 35 generic IOs only, because that's pretty much what I level with (though at 37 I begin using 40s, etc...). The idea is to be able to tank without taking taunt, making use of Invincibility's awesome taunt aura. I decided to skip out on Shockwave since it seemed kind of crappy and I fear the idea of it screwing up Invincibility for me and either getting me killed (due to lack of defense) or getting everyone else killed (due to lack of my taunt)...or both! It came down to a choice between it and Focus and I prefer Focus looks-wise.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Strike
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (34) Accuracy IO
- (40) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (15) Resist Damage IO
- (19) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (3) Resist Damage IO
- (3) Resist Damage IO
- (15) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (5) Healing IO
- (5) Healing IO
- (11) Recharge Reduction IO
- (11) Recharge Reduction IO
- (13) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (7) Accuracy IO
- (7) Damage Increase IO
- (17) Damage Increase IO
- (37) Damage Increase IO
- (46) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (9) Accuracy IO
- (9) Damage Increase IO
- (13) Damage Increase IO
- (17) Recharge Reduction IO
- (37) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (19) Resist Damage IO
- (37) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (21) Endurance Modification IO
- (21) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (23) Accuracy IO
- (23) Damage Increase IO
- (34) Damage Increase IO
- (43) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (25) Recharge Reduction IO
- (25) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (27) Accuracy IO
- (27) Damage Increase IO
- (31) Damage Increase IO
- (34) Damage Increase IO
- (46) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (29) Defense Buff IO
- (29) Defense Buff IO
- (31) Taunt Duration IO
- (31) Taunt Duration IO
- (43) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (33) Resist Damage IO
- (33) Resist Damage IO
- (33) Endurance Reduction IO
- (43) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (36) Defense Buff IO
- (36) Defense Buff IO
- (36) Endurance Reduction IO
- (42) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (39) Resist Damage IO
- (39) Resist Damage IO
- (39) Recharge Reduction IO
- (40) Recharge Reduction IO
- (40) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (42) Defense Buff IO
- (42) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (45) Accuracy IO
- (45) Damage Increase IO
- (45) Damage Increase IO
- (46) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (48) Accuracy IO
- (48) Damage Increase IO
- (48) Damage Increase IO
- (50) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (50) Endurance Reduction IO
- (50) To Hit Debuff IO
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Level 6: Ninja Run
Take the taunts out of invincibility they are unneeded and a waste of slots, replace with to hit buff IO's or use the slots elsewhere. Take the resist dmg IO's out of Unstoppable and just leave it with 3 recharge, unstop caps your resistances even without IO's in it since you can run it with your other toggles.
May also wanna consider recharge reduction IO's for your attacks that take longer to recharge.
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Unstoppable without resistance enhancements only gives 52.5% resistance. A brute with unyielding, resist elements, and resist energies will have about 23% resistance to f/c/e/n. |
Originally Posted by DJ_Onslaught
Take the resist dmg IO's out of Unstoppable and just leave it with 3 recharge, unstop caps your resistances even without IO's in it since you can run it with your other toggles.
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Unstoppable only caps smashing and lethal resistances without enhancement.
Taking the taunts out of invincibility seems fair enough, but I don't think I should take the resists out of Unstoppable. Even with all toggles running it would only cap Smashing and Lethal. Everything else would be at 63.3%.
Which of the claws attacks do you feel would really benefit from recharge reduction? It's pretty light for all of them already. Especially with Hasten which will be up most of the time. The only thing that could really use the reduction is Dark Obliteration.
Will this build be bottoming on END much? Will I really miss taunt or is it the least necessary on /Inv out of all Brute secondaries? Is it fine not to take Resist Elements/Energies since they provide a very tiny buff compared to all my other powers? The build is so tight already I don't think I could find a way to fit them in without major sacrifices.
Anyway, I tried to redo the leveling build, how's this?
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Strike
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (37) Accuracy IO
- (43) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (15) Resist Damage IO
- (34) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (3) Resist Damage IO
- (3) Resist Damage IO
- (13) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (5) Healing IO
- (5) Healing IO
- (11) Recharge Reduction IO
- (11) Recharge Reduction IO
- (13) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (7) Accuracy IO
- (7) Damage Increase IO
- (17) Damage Increase IO
- (19) Recharge Reduction IO
- (31) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (9) Accuracy IO
- (9) Damage Increase IO
- (15) Damage Increase IO
- (17) Recharge Reduction IO
- (19) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (34) Resist Damage IO
- (34) Resist Damage IO
- (36) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (21) Endurance Modification IO
- (21) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (23) Accuracy IO
- (23) Damage Increase IO
- (31) Damage Increase IO
- (43) Recharge Reduction IO
- (48) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (25) Recharge Reduction IO
- (25) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (27) Accuracy IO
- (27) Damage Increase IO
- (31) Damage Increase IO
- (37) Recharge Reduction IO
- (40) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (29) Defense Buff IO
- (29) Defense Buff IO
- (37) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (33) Resist Damage IO
- (33) Resist Damage IO
- (33) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (36) Defense Buff IO
- (36) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (39) Resist Damage IO
- (39) Resist Damage IO
- (39) Recharge Reduction IO
- (40) Recharge Reduction IO
- (40) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (42) Accuracy IO
- (42) Damage Increase IO
- (42) Damage Increase IO
- (43) Recharge Reduction IO
- (46) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (45) Accuracy IO
- (45) Damage Increase IO
- (45) Damage Increase IO
- (46) Recharge Reduction IO
- (46) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (48) Endurance Reduction IO
- (48) To Hit Debuff IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (50) Defense Buff IO
- (50) Defense Buff IO
- (50) Endurance Reduction IO
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Level 6: Ninja Run
I was reading a thread about this on the Scrapper boards. Everyone recommended /Invulnerability, because it has a good taunt aura, but I was wondering if /SR would be better for Brutes since they have a taunt aura in Evasion.
My goal is to take alpha and hold aggro, at least enough to keep the team alive and moving, for a full team of 8.
I'm partial to Invulnerability because I love the way it looks and my biggest complaint about Super Reflexes is having to click for mez protection instead of getting a toggle. I always run hasten on auto, so having two powers that I want to keep on auto is just a pain for me. I always forget to use whichever one isn't on auto and it comes back to bite me. Quickness is nice, though. I think it would nearly negate the upped the recharge times for the Brute version of Claws.
I have tried claws paired with resist based sets with damage auras (specifically ELA for Lightning Reflexes, same reason as I like Quickness) but they've felt too squishy and the radius of the damage auras feels too limited. I've read good things about /WP but I think that's more for solo-farming than for tanking for a team. Especially if I'm not sure about taking Taunt.