Direct Skin Textures Selection
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2010-05-28 21:34 in Suggestions and Ideas
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It doesn't work this way. You can't "mix" textures with the current game engine. The most you can do is create a colour pattern.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
I was wondering if other people would like this to be done as well. Instead of just skin colors, we have a skin texture; such as reptile, tech box, etc. So that whenever you have a costume piece that uses skin tone it uses this texture. This would take a little work, like anything else, but could come up with something rather interesting. Like the wired tech texture on the hooved or clawed monstrous feat with a tech skin.
Coloring would need some work, as you would need to combine or chose ether skin coloring or normal costume coloring for the texture. The way it would be set up is that the skin tone would be exactly like a normal costume slot. It would have the color and to the left, the skin type chosen. You click on it and the skin color selection will open as normal. Non-bear skin textures could have both the normal costume coloring and the skin tone coloring. |
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The idea isn't to mix them but rather if people want they can over ride the base skin texture like they can already.|
Originally Posted by MondoCool
It doesn't work this way. You can't "mix" textures with the current game engine. The most you can do is create a colour pattern.
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The idea is to have an actual base skin texture other than normal human, so that if you have costume pieces that show skin, it doesn't have to be human skin.
Okay, reworked the OP. Maybe this makes more sense.
Yes please! I'd like my reptilian character to be able to wear more clothing that isn't a jacket/painted on.
I can already see the cluster-f*** that would ensue in altering the current texture system. The amount of work would probably be sky high...
And yet, I want it. I acctually had the same thought the other day. So as a selfish, slave-driving player of CoX...
/signed
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
i'd like it, but the tech seems unlikely. Would LOVE it though.
Do you guys know of what system they are using for this game? I really don't know, but by my experience with completely unrelated programs, it seems more like tedious actions than a problem, so it makes me wonder.
P.S. The same effect could be accomplished if they add every single costume part made and will make with an additional two slots for modification of the skin alone. This might be easier in the short run, but if they plan on sticking with this system for a while, they might go with an over-haul with this suggestions. So in the end it will all depend on how much longer they plan on using the current City of X, and not move over to a new system for City of Heroes 2 (god forbid).
Good GOD, man! Please, never put blue text on a teal background ever again!
As for the actual idea, I very much like it and have a history of suggesting just that from time to time. But the current system just doesn't support what I think it is you want. And, yes, we do know a fair bit about how the system work. It's especially evident if you look at the texture packages, which you are actually not allowed to do.
Basically, each mesh piece can use one and only one texture file at a time, and some will have bump mpas and shininess added to them as additional textures, which are actually usually just bi-colour monochrome. What this means that patterns over costume pieces can never be other textures. Patterns are colour masks that allow you to tint a section of texture a different colour and is defined as a bi-colour monochrome mask. There is no way to force, say, a cloth texture to draw over a metallic texture (or at the very least no precedent for it). If you tried, you'd end up looking like you just painted part of the metallic texture with an airbrush.
Now, despite this, a few textures with both skin and clothes still exist, like te t-shirt or the tank top. The problem with these is that they're not clothes over skin, they're just one texture with both skin AND cloth on the same bitmap. Doing multiple variations of these with non-human skins, while possible, would both be seriously time-consuming AND balloon the costume piece dropdowns to unprecedented size.
Now, on the subject of skin under gloves and bracers... Yeah, I can kind of see that. It'd be a lot simpler to just give gloves and bracers a "texture" dropdown to alter the skin texture underneath them than to try and alter skin texture on a whole-model basis, though.
The problem with swapping out skin is that currently, Tights With Skin options work by using patterns to simulate clothes, and the only reason THAT works is because skin texture is relatively smooth and tinting it kind of looks like skin-tight clothing. Any detail you put on the skin, however, will show through the "clothes," revealing them for what they are - bodypaint. Any detail like... Nipples! Seriously, grab a bare-chested male and start putting patterns on him. You can't make them look like clothes with the guy's nipples clearly showing through the fabric!
Again, this is still a very good idea, and I hope and pray that one day we might get the ability to overlay textures on top of each other. That would be the ideal solution.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Good GOD, man
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I put it in blue because it was no longer relevant, but didn't want to delete it as we have had conversation about it already. Leaving the relevant to the focus in bold white.
Reading the rest of the post now.
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Get wiff villain skin.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Good GOD, man! Please, never put blue text on a teal background ever again!
As for the actual idea, I very much like it and have a history of suggesting just that from time to time. But the current system just doesn't support what I think it is you want. And, yes, we do know a fair bit about how the system work. It's especially evident if you look at the texture packages, which you are actually not allowed to do. Basically, each mesh piece can use one and only one texture file at a time, and some will have bump mpas and shininess added to them as additional textures, which are actually usually just bi-colour monochrome. What this means that patterns over costume pieces can never be other textures. Patterns are colour masks that allow you to tint a section of texture a different colour and is defined as a bi-colour monochrome mask. There is no way to force, say, a cloth texture to draw over a metallic texture (or at the very least no precedent for it). If you tried, you'd end up looking like you just painted part of the metallic texture with an airbrush. Now, despite this, a few textures with both skin and clothes still exist, like te t-shirt or the tank top. The problem with these is that they're not clothes over skin, they're just one texture with both skin AND cloth on the same bitmap. Doing multiple variations of these with non-human skins, while possible, would both be seriously time-consuming AND balloon the costume piece dropdowns to unprecedented size. Now, on the subject of skin under gloves and bracers... Yeah, I can kind of see that. It'd be a lot simpler to just give gloves and bracers a "texture" dropdown to alter the skin texture underneath them than to try and alter skin texture on a whole-model basis, though. The problem with swapping out skin is that currently, Tights With Skin options work by using patterns to simulate clothes, and the only reason THAT works is because skin texture is relatively smooth and tinting it kind of looks like skin-tight clothing. Any detail you put on the skin, however, will show through the "clothes," revealing them for what they are - bodypaint. Any detail like... Nipples! Seriously, grab a bare-chested male and start putting patterns on him. You can't make them look like clothes with the guy's nipples clearly showing through the fabric! Again, this is still a very good idea, and I hope and pray that one day we might get the ability to overlay textures on top of each other. That would be the ideal solution. |
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I don't quite see that in practice here. We see that the skin tone color universally effects all bare skin sections right? This is a texture in its own.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Good GOD, man! Please, never put blue text on a teal background ever again!
As for the actual idea, I very much like it and have a history of suggesting just that from time to time. But the current system just doesn't support what I think it is you want. And, yes, we do know a fair bit about how the system work. It's especially evident if you look at the texture packages, which you are actually not allowed to do. Basically, each mesh piece can use one and only one texture file at a time, and some will have bump mpas and shininess added to them as additional textures, which are actually usually just bi-colour monochrome. What this means that patterns over costume pieces can never be other textures. Patterns are colour masks that allow you to tint a section of texture a different colour and is defined as a bi-colour monochrome mask. There is no way to force, say, a cloth texture to draw over a metallic texture (or at the very least no precedent for it). If you tried, you'd end up looking like you just painted part of the metallic texture with an airbrush. Now, despite this, a few textures with both skin and clothes still exist, like te t-shirt or the tank top. The problem with these is that they're not clothes over skin, they're just one texture with both skin AND cloth on the same bitmap. Doing multiple variations of these with non-human skins, while possible, would both be seriously time-consuming AND balloon the costume piece dropdowns to unprecedented size. Now, on the subject of skin under gloves and bracers... Yeah, I can kind of see that. It'd be a lot simpler to just give gloves and bracers a "texture" dropdown to alter the skin texture underneath them than to try and alter skin texture on a whole-model basis, though. The problem with swapping out skin is that currently, Tights With Skin options work by using patterns to simulate clothes, and the only reason THAT works is because skin texture is relatively smooth and tinting it kind of looks like skin-tight clothing. Any detail you put on the skin, however, will show through the "clothes," revealing them for what they are - bodypaint. Any detail like... Nipples! Seriously, grab a bare-chested male and start putting patterns on him. You can't make them look like clothes with the guy's nipples clearly showing through the fabric! Again, this is still a very good idea, and I hope and pray that one day we might get the ability to overlay textures on top of each other. That would be the ideal solution. |
All that would need to be done is add additional options for different base skins. The main problem here would be adding in the option to apply a texture to that skin, with a secondary color, just like a normal costume item. Other textures and secondary textures added later on would not stack but over-ride like they do currently, making it work like normal bare skin does already.
In my last post I did note that it would probably be a lot of work, but probably not necessarily hard work.
And I agree with you, it might be easier to just add additional skin alteration options to the one's using bare skin, but if they plan on making a lot more similar costume parts like this, it might be easier in the long run to just give the ability to alternate the base skin. So in hopes that the game is going to be around a while, I think my purposed option in the OP would be the way to go.
P.S. As to the nudity problem. As is with my suggestion, things should be alright, as this would not give any new options to perform nudity, however my idea could be taken one step further adding a bare skin option for the upper body chest and lower body pants slot, having nothing but minimum undergarment for the skin tones that are human, all those above the black/gray/white, and the in-human ones with out, as they seem okay with this. The inhuman skin tones of course would not be anything more than the textured inhuman skin toned jump suit.
I'm still waiting for people to understand that -you can't do this-. You can only have one texture and one colour pattern at a time. It's a software limitation.
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So you are saying the suggestion to change the way skin is done wouldn't work because we would need to change the way skin is done...
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Originally Posted by MondoCool
I'm still waiting for people to understand that -you can't do this-. You can only have one texture and one colour pattern at a time. It's a software limitation.
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It's an engine limitation. You would need to completely rework the engine to accomplish this.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
So you are saying the suggestion to change the way skin is done wouldn't work because we would need to change the way skin is done...
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I didn't know you had played with the engine code.
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Originally Posted by MondoCool
It's an engine limitation. You would need to completely rework the engine to accomplish this.
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Even if you can't stack texture on texture, how is that a problem?
We have the bare skin already right? that is a texture right? but we over ride this and place extures on there of these any way.
For example:
What we have now: Base Skin=Bare Human: Color of Skin=Red: Costume Texture=Green Spots: Skin Override=Reptile
What I am asking to change: Base Skin=Reptile: Color of Skin=Green: Texture of Skin=Red Spots: Costume Texture Override=Green Stripes: Costume Skin Override=Red Robotic.
THERE IS NO STACKING OF TEXTURES PERIOD. Unless you can explain clearly how I am wrong, that is how it looks.
IF this is too much, as stated earlier, sense you didn't read anything really to start, there is always the simpler option to add the ability to change the skin on each of the parts that use bare skin to have an override to different skins with skin textures.
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I can't explain clearly how you're wrong because I can't even understand what you're trying to say. It seems like you're trying to make it so that you can have, say, the Tee or Tank Top textures layered overtop, say, Reptilian or Monstrous Fur, and that just can't happen.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
Even if you can't stack texture on texture, how is that a problem?
We have the bare skin already right? that is a texture right? but we over ride this and place extures on there of these any way. For example: What we have now: Base Bare Skin: Color of Skin: Costume Spots Texture: Reptile Skin-Override What I am asking to change: Base Reptile Skin: Color of Skin: Texture of Skin Spots: Costume Texture Override Stripes: Costume Skin Override Robotic. THERE IS NO STACKING OF TEXTURES PERIOD. Unless you can explain clearly how I am wrong, that is how it looks. IF this is too much, as stated earlier, sense you didn't read anything really to start, there is always the simpler option to add the ability to change the skin on each of the parts that use bare skin to have an override to different skins with skin textures. |
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Edit: So you are saying it is impossible to add the ability to override/change out the base human bare skin for a different skin and texture?|
Originally Posted by MondoCool
I can't explain clearly how you're wrong because I can't even understand what you're trying to say. It seems like you're trying to make it so that you can have, say, the Tee or Tank Top textures layered overtop, say, Reptilian or Monstrous Fur, and that just can't happen.
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We know you can't do that now, that is why we are asking for a change.
P.S. From what I have seen of computer programs they are using 1 of 3 systems to make these characters' appearances.
1. Layering: They layer on top of each piece per costume slot section with different graphics.
2. Sectioned/Override: They have each combination on each slot of every single combination out there in every single color by costume slot which they worked out individually.
3. Combination: Somethings they did 1 somethings they did 2.
Am I correct? What other way could/did they go by to create the system to make these characters?
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And you work in which branch of Paragon Studios, may I ask?
Originally Posted by MondoCool
It's an engine limitation. You would need to completely rework the engine to accomplish this.
Besides, the person is suggesting something. Sometimes something new does require modifications to the engine. And sometimes developers feel that certain features would be worth the time and resources in modifying the engine; such as Power Customization in Issue 16. I'm not entirely sure if power customization required modification to the engine, but that's the implication I got from reading Back Alley Brawler's posts.
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For a specific section of the body, you have the following:|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
What other way could/did they go by to create the system to make these characters?
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1. The model.
2. The texture.
3. The texture's hue.
The model itself can be changed per costume selection, a good example is the Cyborg legs, which use a different model than the base legs.
The texture is one single texture. You cannot layer textures, you cannot combine textures, you can select one texture and one texture only.
You have up to three different colours for your texture. The first colour is "locked into" the texture and cannot be edited - such as the white stitches on the Chaos Leather texture. The second and third colours are user selectable. On textures that have "bare skin", the skin colour is used in place of one of the two selectable colours.
What I think you're trying to say is that you want the "bare skin" to be replacable with scales or fur or whatever. This is not possible. The only way it could happen is if the developers remade the textures and created separate ones for each (scales w/tee, scales w/tank, fur w/tee, fur/tank, etc) and this will not be the end result that you desire (being able to "select skin textures" or whatever you're talking about).
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Actually, and I probably shouldn't be talking about this, that's not exactly how it works.|
Originally Posted by MondoCool
For a specific section of the body, you have the following:
1. The model. 2. The texture. 3. The texture's hue. The model itself can be changed per costume selection, a good example is the Cyborg legs, which use a different model than the base legs. The texture is one single texture. You cannot layer textures, you cannot combine textures, you can select one texture and one texture only. You have up to three different colours for your texture. The first colour is "locked into" the texture and cannot be edited - such as the white stitches on the Chaos Leather texture. The second and third colours are user selectable. On textures that have "bare skin", the skin colour is used in place of one of the two selectable colours. What I think you're trying to say is that you want the "bare skin" to be replacable with scales or fur or whatever. This is not possible. The only way it could happen is if the developers remade the textures and created separate ones for each (scales w/tee, scales w/tank, fur w/tee, fur/tank, etc) and this will not be the end result that you desire (being able to "select skin textures" or whatever you're talking about). |
Skin textures are like any other sort of texture. You have a bitmap picture of the skin and a bitmap picture of its bump map. Certain textures have an additional texture that's a tinting mask, defining which sections tint by how much. You aren't limited to jut one colour that's static and unchangeable. You can set any part of the texture to be untintable and it will just remain the same no matter what colour you pick. This isn't limited to just greyscale, either, as not all textures are set up as greyscale. As a point of fact, bare skin is brown/orange-tinted naturally, which is why you can never really match it to costume colours other than black.
Going off ordinary pieces, your list is about on the money. You have 3D model that is defined per costume piece in the actual texture file, you have a texture on top of that, a bump map on top of THAT and a tinting mask if one exists. Beyond that you apply patterns, which are define as two-colour black and white masks with set transparency. I THINK pure black is as opaque as the engine permits (which still ends up transparent) and pure white is no tint. A few masks, like Blend and Tiger Stripes, have black-and-white, which is why they blend like they do.
The problem is that each costume piece has only ONE 3D model ascribed to it and can draw from only ONE texture and ONE pattern. It's not possible to take, say, a lizardman chest and apply a cloth t-shirt to it because that would require two textures.
So how does Tights with Skin work then? By a simple cheat. "Bare skin" is just another texture like Tights (actually, the SAME texture, but brown-tinted), which is applied in the exact same way, only it draws its primary tint colour from elsewhere - the skin colour selection. On top of that skin, you can put on a PATTERN. That's right, you don't put on another texture, you just recolour part of the skin texture another colour. Any pattern put on any costume piece is always transparent. That's how the game defines it. However, the female skin chest is drawn without any actual features like nipples or a belly button, so just tinting part of it makes it look like you have clothes over it. It's still around 50% transparent, but there's nothing below it to actually see, so you can't actually TELL it's transparent.
It's easy to tell when you try to match up Tights With Skin with Full Tights. You'll notice there's a colour difference between the same colour selection. That's because tights are greyscale and that's what their tint is transparent to, whereas skin is "brownscale," which is what Tights with Skin are transparent to. Yes, Tights with Skin are transparent, they're just not transparent to the colour of skin you picked, but to the same brown that the base texture has on it.
This works for skin because it's a case-sensitive cheat. Comic book fans in particular and people in general are very receptive to seeing human body shapes with muscle definition "painted" to make it seem like they have clothes. We see it, and we go "Aha! Tight spandex! Kinky!" This does not work, and let me say it again:
THIS DOES NOT WORK
For anything other than skin. The reason Tights with SKIN works is because of the skin texture. Any time you try to apply patterns on other textures, they look like exactly what they are - paint over the base surface. You can test this yourself - go Tights top, put on a Reptile or a Rock or a Bio-Organic cortso than put the Athletic top onto it. THIS is what it would look like if you could swap skin textures. And THIS looks really bad. The reason Tights with Skin works so well is because the skin texture looks a heck of a lot like the tights texture (and for good reason - they're basically the same), but the tights texture DOES NOT look like the bio-organic texture. If you want a bio-organic skin, then you're going to have to concede to dress only in bio-organic pattern tights that just happen to match the veins on your chest perfectly... Otherwise known as PAINT-ON CLOTHES.
Again - human skin is smooth enough to give the illusion of clothes if you use just flat-colour patterns. Nothing else has that property, because every other texture has much more detail on it that tights would and SHOULD cover, but the current system won't let them.
As a point of fact, nothing is stopping you from faking that your skin is reptillian or bio-organic. There are full sets of the stuff with gloves, boots, chest, legs and face. The problem is that you can't wear clothes over it, especially if you're male. Women, at least, have shirts and shorts to use, but men have NOTHING.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I really wish that thing we weren't suppose to use didn't crash on vista 64...
Wow a lot of info here. Still pining over it. Going to have to learn this lingo anyway.
Thanks!
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Or Windows 7 x64. Or wasn't something like five years old. Or wasn't bugged to make bad imports...|
Originally Posted by LISAR
I really wish that thing we weren't suppose to use didn't crash on vista 64...
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I agree with you completely
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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(Ignore the blue as it is no longer relevant, it is here as reference to the conversation before the reworking)
I was wondering if other people would like this to be done as well. Instead of just skin colors, we have a skin texture; such as reptile, tech box, etc. So that whenever you have a costume piece that uses skin tone it uses this texture. This would take a little work, like anything else, but could come up with something rather interesting. Like the wired tech texture on the hooved or clawed monstrous feat with a tech skin.
Coloring would need some work, as you would need to combine or chose ether skin coloring or normal costume coloring for the texture.
The way it would be set up is that the skin tone would be exactly like a normal costume slot. It would have the color and to the left, the skin type chosen. You click on it and the skin color selection will open as normal. Non-bear skin textures could have both the normal costume coloring and the skin tone coloring.
Re-wording: As of now, we have only one texture as a base skin. However in our costume pieces we have alternate skins we can add. This makes for problems as some costume pieces only work as if you have normal bare skin. So to make things more versatile with all costume pieces, we have the ability to change the base skin texture. So if you have an mutant who has spotted skin or cyborg street thug (or whatever), you don't lose your spots or mechanical parts, whenever you put on leather gloves and tank top shirt (for example).
It has been stated that this might be too much to handle for the system. As I don't know the system intermittently I can neither confirm nor deny this. So as an alternate solution to this problem, it would be nice if we could simply add the ability to change textures of the skin for those using bare skin. However it might be simpler in the long run to go ahead and make a universal system like stated above, as more costume parts using bare skin, each will end up needing this option/treatment added, and that might end up being even more work in the long run.