A small request...

ITT:

A bunch of hypersensitive whiners.

((I think inviting yourself to *anything*, whether in real life or in a game is rude. Having said that, I also think that all of us, at one point or another, has done something rude, or even thoughtless without realizing it.

I don't think that much of it when I get a tell asking if I have room on my team. If someone is "rudely" inviting his/herself to my team, if they do so in a friendly manner, it doesn't bother me. It's only when I get repeated requests from the same person (which happens a LOT) that I get perturbed. Other than that, anything sent to me in a friendly tell, I try to answer politely, unless I'm afk or extremely busy.

But I can see Smersh's point.))

I wouldn't call sending tells and asking to join teams rude. Some of the tells I've gotten that were like that were actually really polite and friendly. I even ended up just randomly conversing with the person on several occasions.

But I do think it's a little stupid and a time-waster for the person sending the tells.

What's even more funny is that over 3 times, I've gotten these tells while I was base editing. I wasn't in a team. And my zone status was "Super Group Base". And I was level 50. And I see a tell like "Got room on your team for a Stalker?"...

At that point, I just facepalm...

How do you determine just from the search window whether or not someone is already on a team?



I'm seeing columns for: Search Status, Level, AT, Origin (why?), Name, Current Map, and Search Comment. But I am not seeing any column showing Team or Solo. Is there a way to add additional columns to the search window? If not, perhaps the Origin Column should be replaced with Team Size.

Personally I sometimes find it a bit intrusive when somebody sends me a tell asking if they can join my team, especially if I'm not team leader. I try to remain cordial thought. If the person sends me clear and understandable tells I am more likely to consider their request.

I can appreciate why people do it thought and as long as they respect a polite "no,sorry" I'm ok with it. What's rude is when a person asks me more than once in an hour, doesn't communicate properly, and/or spams several people at once.

Also look at where people are, if I'm role playing in my supergroup base chances are I won't want you to join my team. If on the other hand I'm running a PuG in Talos Island or Cap au Diable and I broadcast LFM then chances are I won't mind your tell.

I think it's largely about the situatuion, I think asking what the team is doing before asking iof you can join is probably a good idea though.

OP instead of QQing about people asking to join a team put yourself on hide. Easy solved and makes all the whine in this thread pointless.

I have no problem with getting a tell asking to join my team, and also no problem in turning people down if they do, and I'm not in the mood.

At the times I play (Aussie evening, before or during maintenance time) it makes a lot of sense actually, as there are often single figures present in a zone. In that context it makes perfect sense to ask the teamed ones if a team is going, when the alternative is to shut up, wait and see if they broadcast that they're looking.

I just think people are mixing up the words "rude" and "annoying".

Okay, serious question time. This one is primarily directed at Silencer7, but anyone can feel free to chime in.

What is it that makes an MMO a different social space than the real world? Why do normal standards not apply (or different standards apply, if you prefer to phrase it that way)?

In the real world, asking for something that hasn't been offered can be seen to be pretty rude. You can ask your grandmother for a cookie and have a fair chance of getting one, but asking a stranger would get you a weird look or worse.

In the MMO world, much of it is a public space shared by all. However, there do exist private spaces within the MMO world, private being defined as 'only able to be entered by an owner, member, or someone who has been invited.' In our MMO, spaces with varying degrees of privacy can be found in instances, arena matches, supergroup bases, global channels and teams. You can enter your own private spaces (for instance, by taking a mission) or create a space that has you and a few other people (for instance, making a global channel or team.) Just because you are in such a private space, however, does not insulate you from those outside the space; you can be sent a tell or email and receive it inside that private space.

Likewise, such private spaces exist in the real world, and communication can be sent into those private spaces, by cell phones, land lines, knocking on the door, et cetera. Most of the time, sending communications to those private spaces without knowing the people inside is considered to be rude, unless you have some sort of specific business with them. (No one I know likes getting a phone call or a knock on the door from some sort of salesperson, especially when you're otherwise occupied.)

Now, as a mitigating factor, the MMO space has a lowered threshold of social interaction for strangers. Everyone who is playing has, presumably, at least some interest in the subject matter, and everyone is paying $15 a month for the chance to play the game and interact with others who are also interested in playing the game. This, incidentally, is why it is not rude to send a tell when you are recruiting for a team to people that show up on /search solo. You can presume that everyone who is playing the game is at least marginally interested in gaining experience, influence, etc. This is a social norm for the MMO.

My position is that the lowered threshold is what allows PUGs to form. A gathering of people who want to play the game, just for fun or to accomplish a specific goal (task force, raid, etc.) I do not view that lowered threshold of interaction as extending to asking for entry into a private space when it is not offered.

It is one thing to ask to join in a private space when it is offered, either explicitly or implicitly. Explicit invitations range from a tell saying 'Hey, want to join a radio team?' to a broadcast saying 'Numina taskforce looking for three more, defender or tank preferred.' An implicit invitation would be, for instance, you talking about your supergroup on your team channel, and one of your teammates asks a few questions about it. The invitation is implicit when you are saying complimentary things about your group to an interested party, so it is not rude when that person says, 'That sounds like a neat group, can I join?'

But, when you see someone is on a team in the search window, it is not an explicit or implicit offer of a spot on a team. It just means that they are on a team. They could be teamed for many different reasons - they could be setting up an arena event, they could be running a costume contest, they could be having a supergroup mission night, they could be RPing, or they could be just running missions with a pickup group.

These are my views on the matter. I am interested to hear why an MMO's social space is different, why asking if you can join a team already in progress is a social norm, rather than a deviation from the norm and, hence, rude.

I am willing to be convinced, but it will take more than 'MMOs are different.' I want to understand why.

Pugs aren't private spaces.

Figure the odds of random person contacted not being the leader of the team...
...the odds of them not wanting to invest themselves in suggesting a stranger to the leader if they aren't...
...the odds of them being full up or satisfied with the team performance as-is...
...the odds of them being on a task force...
...the odds of them being on a team with just friends/SGmates...

I have no idea what those odds actually are, (and I'm too lazy and stupid to try to fudge numbers semi-reasonably. ) but it seems likely to me that that's why people spam the list without reading the comments/locations/teamed status...trying to hit up enough people to overcome those odds.

Why not find a channel or three with interests similar to yours and post once on each of them rather than send a bunch of messages to random strangers? Those channels (like VirtueUnited, for example) are public spaces and you're definitely not intruding on anything private....and that's what those channels are usually for, a social medium to connect people. Be reasonably specific with what you're looking for, (TF, mission arc team, radios, AE) and people are generally pretty receptive.

Honestly, to those people who invite themselves onto teams...I've never done it and I am actually curious...how many attempts does it actually take for you to find a team that way? I'm willing to entertain the possibility I'm wrong...but the numbers of times I'm hit up by the same people multiple times seems to suggest otherwise.

This is part of why it seems rude to me: searchers are just poking random people when much better means of finding teams already exist. "You poked me because...you don't want to do something much more effective. I...see.... And same with...the last three people...."

And, yes, "rudeness" is usually a matter of both context and perspective. So an act can actually be both at once. With this in mind, I try to extend a little tolerance for those who don't share my views...but a little understanding that some of us dislike the reverse invites might be appropriate as well, rather than simply and repetitively insisting that everything we say is wrong.

And while not all analogies are appropriate, they can be an effective means of conveying meaning, and are not automatically invalid. When dealing with something as inherently nebulous as etiquette, drawing parallels is fairly necessary since our ideas of rudeness is drawn from our experience. It's at least more valid than saying "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!" at each other.

Oh, and just for the heck of it, to play Devil's advocate for a moment: a lot of behaviour that I find objectively rude (Sending me four tells as you spam the list multiple times, when I've already politely declined you, is a fairly clear-cut case of someone being inconsiderate.) is associated with reverse invites...so it's quite possible that the objectively rude acts have coloured my impression of a fairly -subjectively- inconsiderate one. That is, the people who are relatively considerate when they invite themselves onto a team are possibly being painted with the same brush as the people who are jerks about it.