I like it. It's not the mind blowing revamp I'd hoped for, but it finally grants something for solo play.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
I like it. It's not the mind blowing revamp I'd hoped for, but it finally grants something for solo play.
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its a step in the right direction but the defenders don't need an inherent so we get this PoS is crap.
i'm still all for strato's idea for changing around both defenders and corrs
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
I like it. Maybe now defenders will actually start taking attacks instead of pretending that they're pure support.
So far its been an excellent improvement to soloing. It actually has had a couple side-effects for me.
1) 30% more base damage is noticeable enough that I have reconsidered the effectiveness of Assault. Meaning that my solo damage has gone up even more due to adding in assault.
2) The effectiveness of my blasts is quite noticeable against villains of all types. Minions are now small potatoes, Lts are much easier to dispatch and Bosses are still a challenge, but not nearly as time-consuming to take down as before. Speed thru a mission is an important aspect for me (and many others I suspect).
The interesting thing about this improvement is that each of my defenders still retains their original strengths and weaknesses, have the same effectiveness in groups, but gain a solo-ing improvement.
The devs did a great job on this one !!
but.... (you knew there was one)
I think there are still some small tweaks to be made to individual powersets to even-out the primaries a little more.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I'm still of the same opinion as before. Yes the damage is nice solo and duo but the end saving mechanic on medium to large teams is still very broken since it rewards poor play and comparatively punishes good play.
My opinion remains the same. The inherent needs a total rework not a kludge fix to attempt to make them competative with corruptors in a narrow band of circumstances.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I'm still of the same opinion as before. Yes the damage is nice solo and duo but the end saving mechanic on medium to large teams is still very broken since it rewards poor play and comparatively punishes good play.
My opinion remains the same. The inherent needs a total rework not a kludge fix to attempt to make them competative with corruptors in a narrow band of circumstances. |
I always figured it wasn't so much a 'reward' for poor play, but allowed the defender to pull the team out of a bad spot, or keep them alive when something goes wrong.
Dual builds did more to buff Defender soloing than Vigilance 2.0. So I expect, as with dual builds, far too many Defenders won't bother to take advantage.
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The "reward" poor play argument is excellent hyperbole though. I have yet to see anyone actually *try* to play poorly just to take advantage of vigilance. Given that the amount of damage the team needs to have suffered for vigilance to start providing significant benefits even extremely well played defenders get some benefit from it. In some cases poor play actually reduces the benefits. (e.g. heal aura on auto)
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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
I always figured it wasn't so much a 'reward' for poor play, but allowed the defender to pull the team out of a bad spot, or keep them alive when something goes wrong.
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I tend to agree. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I'm still of the same opinion as before. Yes the damage is nice solo and duo but the end saving mechanic on medium to large teams is still very broken since it rewards poor play and comparatively punishes good play.
My opinion remains the same. The inherent needs a total rework not a kludge fix to attempt to make them competative with corruptors in a narrow band of circumstances. |
Personally I'd prefer a similar scaling endurance bonus as the damage boost compartment independent on team member health. Then an added bonus to +Recharge as the team memer health goes down. It still "rewards poor play", but would also be a bonus for steamrolling teams.
It would certainly give more meaning to the name Defender. As they are now, Controllers still "defend/support" their team significantly better.
I still like it.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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What does that even mean? Is that missing a word or two, or am I just dense?
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Personally I'd prefer a similar scaling endurance bonus as the damage boost compartment independent on team member health.
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I think it means Damage goes up as player count drops, and endurance savings increase as player count rises. So Max damage boost while solo, scaling down as you add teammates, and it gets replaced with a global recharge or endurance boost as you add more teammates.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
What does that even mean? Is that missing a word or two, or am I just dense?
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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That's what I get for posting half asleep I guess. |
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
What does that even mean? Is that missing a word or two, or am I just dense?
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In plain language then. I would have preferred the team endurance compartment of Vigilance to work much in the same way as the solo damage compartment does; a scaling boost determined on number of team mates, not dependent on health. Then add a +Recharge compartment that works in the same way as the endurance compartment does today.
This would ensure that, unlike today, the inherent is ALWAYS at least somewhat useful and would also make a Defender better able to actually defend his team (as slow recharge is often more of an issue than lack of endurance).
I had always been of the opinion that higher buff values were defenders "special thing", but the change to vigilance is a nice extra layer of awesome in addition. It definitely helps speed up soloing, but the remainder of the inherit still does jack diddly in a team scenario so it doesn't really change anything where my defender was concerned with.
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While that can true for an empath played as a h34l0r, it's not so true for any other set, especially debuff sets. (Think TA)
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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
I always figured it wasn't so much a 'reward' for poor play, but allowed the defender to pull the team out of a bad spot, or keep them alive when something goes wrong.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Hyperbole eh? Your own post proves you know that it's not and that you agree at least to some extent.|
Originally Posted by Arondell
The "reward" poor play argument is excellent hyperbole though. I have yet to see anyone actually *try* to play poorly just to take advantage of vigilance. Given that the amount of damage the team needs to have suffered for vigilance to start providing significant benefits even extremely well played defenders get some benefit from it. In some cases poor play actually reduces the benefits. (e.g. heal aura on auto)
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| even extremely well played defenders get some benefit from it |
You should get out more, try a few PUGS from time to time. Simply because you have never seen a million dollars doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
I have seen defenders dragging a corpse around simply for the endurance discount.
I have seen Defenders that should be buffing their team neglecting to do so for the express purpose of gaining an endurance discount, and then when a team mate dies using that teammate for vengance.
All you have to do to make vigilance redundant on a team is slot for the amount of end red and recovery that you need while solo.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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So all you've really told us is that bad players are using vigilance in weird ways, just like they do with all sorts of powers and inherents.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I have seen defenders dragging a corpse around simply for the endurance discount.
All you have to do to make vigilance redundant on a team is slot for the amount of end red and recovery that you need while solo. |
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Yes all the tiny bit of the post that you clipped does is that. Try reading the rest of the post.
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Originally Posted by Garent
So all you've really told us is that bad players are using vigilance in weird ways, just like they do with all sorts of powers and inherents.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I did. Just because I responded to one point doesn't mean I didn't read the whole thing.
I have to side with Garent on this one.
Your supposed to keep your team buffed and healed while debuffing mobs, and Vig is there when things go wrong, not to be abused.
Defenders who are seeking the end discount by not healing/buffing/debuffing aren't doing their job right.
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Which is exactly why I think that it is broken and needs a rework. Your inherent should reward you for doing your job well or at least be transparent and funtion all the time like scourge and scrapper criticals.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
I have to side with Garent on this one.
Your supposed to keep your team buffed and healed while debuffing mobs, and Vig is there when things go wrong, not to be abused. Defenders who are seeking the end discount by not healing/buffing/debuffing aren't doing their job right. |
It shouldn't work better the worse you play.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
*shrugs*
It honestly means little to me. If I were playing an AT for the Inherit only, I'd not be playing the AT how I'd play it. My characters always have lots of different sides to it, not just a 1 dimensional being. I don't play Corruptors for Scourge only, nor Stalkers/Scrappers for Critical hits. It's a nice extra, but never *the* reason I choose the AT.
If Controllers had Domination, I'd be in love, but that's because I like how Domination works (even old Dom) more than Containment and Overpower. Tanker inherit... I've not really looked at what it does... I think taunt more? *shrugs* Blasters is alright, but nothing I'd focus around. VEAT inherit seems to not be special at all (to me) and HEATs seem like to degree you have to plan your teams around it (but overall I don't play HEATs anyhow). Brutes have a nifty inherit but it's nothing I'd be planning around. MMs make sense and add a bit of a bonus if their minions are around them.
If I were that miffed at Defender inherit versus it's benefit regardless of inherit, I'd not picked up Defenders after the first one I played.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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I agree with you on that. As has been shown in a lot of threads, there is no single "job" that all defenders do, so that's out. That just leaves the passive option.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Your inherent should reward you for doing your job well or at least be transparent and funtion all the time like scourge and scrapper criticals.
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In my opinion the biggest problem with it is that it's uninteresting, and there are a couple ways that it could be made more interesting without making the archetype much more powerful than it already is.
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The only way for a defender to get no benefit from vigilance is to absolutely and utterly stop a team from taking any damage. I have never seen any single defender, no matter how well played, do this. I have seen a combination of defenders effectively do this but usually such circumstances end up meaning that almost any inherent would be superfluous.(e.g. Stick a force field, sonic, and kinetic on the same team and you'll steamroll almost anything.)|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
You obviously realize that a well played defender gets little to no benefit from it especially...
You should get out more, try a few PUGS from time to time. Simply because you have never seen a million dollars doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I have seen defenders dragging a corpse around simply for the endurance discount... All you have to do to make vigilance redundant on a team is slot for the amount of end red and recovery that you need while solo. |
I have on a couple of occasions seen the "death slave" used and heard it joked about quite a bit on the forums. On the couple of occasions I have personally seen it the obvious reason was to use the huge endurance discount that is given when a team mate drops. On one occasion the guy doing it was dual boxing on the other it was only done for a brief time and both occasions was more to make the point that it *could* be done.
Now that the new version of Vigilance is less shiny than when i17 came out what's everyone's opinion?
I think it works out great; it helps defenders in solo and when teaming with a buddy, but ensures they won't become another version of the blaster, or the blue side corruptor.