The Snake Treatment: Revisiting Old Gangs

This was inspired by This Thread, in which someone explained the lack of visual "Progression" among the street gangs in Paragon City.

Here's the thing: Everyone knows about the lower level enemy groups.

The Hellions and The Skulls are ubiquitous. Everyone knows about them, but you leave them behind after a few levels.

They're eventually replaced by some of Paragon's more "A-List" gangs, like The Freakshow.

The people in that thread were lamenting that, but also said that they didn't want to see the old level enemy groups get wiped out in favor of more powerful versions.

So, here's what I propose:

In Grandville, Operative Grillo sends you off to fight The Snakes. The Snakes are a low level Red Side Enemy group, but when you go fight them at level 45-50, they're revealed way more powerful, and even have an ArchVillain!

A Similar treatment could be given to some of the other enemy groups in Paragon.

Take, for example, The Trolls. The Trolls have a whole Zone dedicated to them. They've got a Zone Event. Yet the most powerful troll we see is Atta.

We never find out why Superadine does what it does. We never find out who commissioned it's creation, aside from that vague lab break in. Those rumors of an ArchVillain Troll are never fulfilled, and those tales of Dyne addicts seeing other dimensions? Only an interesting lore tidbit. We know that it's possible, with enough Dyne, to be come a "Supa-Troll". Lots of PCs are Supa-Trolls as well. Who's to say you can't go beyond that? Maybe Grendel got his hands on a load of Uncut Dyne and is trying to turn himself into some sort of Dyne-Fueled God of Rage to get revenge on Atta?

A Storyarc where you revisit the Trolls would be a perfect example of how "The Snake Treatment" could be used to expand upon an old Enemy Group.

Or the Hellions and Skulls. What if some Hellions really managed to make a pact with a Demon? How did the Petrovich Brothers discover their dark powers?

You don't even necessarily have to make super powerful versions of any one enemy group. Simply adding a few arcs dealing with their specific lore is a great way to revitalize some of the older zones in Paragon City.

/Signed I've always wanted the lower levels to be 'fleshed out' a bit, especially things like the Petrovich brothers. I mean, two bog-standard Bone Daddies? The Skulls are meant to be pretty damn freaky; I mean, they wear the skullsof thei first victim as masks for pete sake (another reason I wish they'd update their models, cos it doesnt look anything like bone...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Right. Whose to say the Skulls aren't connected to... say... Mot?

The reason that The Banished Pantheon can't wake Mot up is because the Skulls are tapping into his power without even realizing it.

I mean, since the only Graveyards you see in Paragon City are in Astoria and Striga anyway...

There's also a bit of inconsistency with how the Skulls get their masks. I've assumed that Gravediggers get their masks from graves (hence the name), and then they go through the more graphic killing ritual to be promoted. Then Bone Daddy's go through the dark ritual to get super powers.

That pretty nicely ties the conflicting stories of how Skulls get their masks together, in my mind.

/signed

I would still like to see regular gang members though, Blood Brothers just at level 50 instead of all demon packed fire lords.

I'm sticking to my guns and voting for a Dr. Vahzilok return in the 40s, but I agree with the idea in general. I don't want to see ALL groups given this treatment, but a few of the more interesting groups really need to make a return in the 40s. And the others? Well, the lower-level ones can make a return in, say, the 30s. You know that Grendel dude, leader of the Trolls who was killed and replaced by Atta? Suppose he's alive. He and and the Supatrolls could give the Warriors and the Freakshow a run for their money.

Some can even show up in the 20s. The Hellions, for instance, stop showing up past, what? 10? 15? Either way, they disappear early enough to make sense for them to have a reappearance in, say, 25-30. Not as a level-spanning enemy group all the way to 50, mind you, but for 5-10 levels, why not?

Speaking of which, can we do something more with the Warriors? "But Sam, you cooky long-winded fellow..." you must be thinking "The Warriors are just unpowered people with swords. What business would they have in the 40-50 game?" Well... Isn't that basically what the Cimerorans are? And yet they have no problems scaling up as high as 54. I see no reason why a new batch of tougher, meaner, serious warriors can't carve a niche for themselves in the end game. It'd be cool to see.

Either way, there's a LOT of potential to this idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

/signed, /signed and triple-/signed

I really like the idea of some of the low level thug groups having a slightly modified resurgence in the upper levels. Alternatively, one could have things like Freak Hellions and Freak Skulls! Imagine cybernetic demon-summoning fire spewers, or robotic-skeletal dark-blasters. I think the idea has merit.

Also, I really wish there would be more to the Vahz. I like the group, and think that the Mad Scientist really should get some more "screen time." Besides, what kinda mad scientist like the good Dr. just lies down and stops fighting after being beaten once? Maybe he could have some crazy zombie-launching GM version as an upper level zone event. Imagine the carnage!

Oh yeah Vahz would be perfect for this. He's got the Whole Herbert West vibe going for him too.

/signed Great idea and I even like the villain group you picked. Nothing against the Hellion or Skulls but the Trolls do seem to have more history including creating the Hollows. It could be a very interesting story arc or even a Task Force. Hey there has been talk for years about revamping zones and even creating more CoOps.. the Trolls exist in Boomtown so why not do a make over on what is almost a completely dead zone, turn it into a coop and create a TF that heroes and villains can do together. Leave the same basic enemy groups in there that exist now (COV and COH both have Trolls, Council, Clockwork, and now 5th Column so the only added group for villains would be the Outcast that roam there as well). Add a few contact for each side and everyone gets more content as well.

The story line could revolve around a Troll AV determined to run off the Oiutcast and warring Council/5th Column even if it takes creating another HOLLOWING. Outdoor Instance missions could allow the team to battle Troll, Council and 5th Column bosses and their forces in an effort to keep the growing war fro escalating. Add a mission where the team heads beneath the surface into Troll tunnels (similar to the ones in the Hollows) to defuse X number of bombs being planted to HOLLOW Boomtown and a final confrontation with the TROLL AV and his minions. How does that sound? :-D

Honestly, I think they should move Vahzilok to start spawning at...hmm...15? Or something? Because damn me do they make you SUFFER as a level 1-10. Toxic damage? Massive stacking -recharge? Bosses with more nasty powers than the Skulls and Hellions combined? Vahzilok dont deserve to be a low game group, they should be mid to high level, IMO.

And I agree with the Warrior point. Stop making them get beaten up by the Freaks in Talos and looking like UTTER wusses. Its pathetic, really. If the Cimerorans can do it WITHOUT the magic bracers, why cant the Warriors do it with?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Outcasts need some more loving.

You have this multi-hued band of mutant misfits with actual super powers faction and they all dry up at 20. Look, I love fighting ninjas, paramilitary guys and wizards/cultists as much as the next guy, but what about actual super powered baddies. I mean, it's a super hero/comic book MMO for Pete's sake.

It's bad enough that the only super powered villains appear in the arcs and post 45 and the safeguards/mayhems. I need to see some Outcasts for the 20-50 game, expand their powersets to include the gamut of controllers and whatever else you can cobble together with the MA, though maybe make all the big name bosses do two different types of powers, a la Frostfire. Heck, you could even re-visualize them for the post 20 game, seeing as they have superpowers, why not give them some spandex too?

Toss them into the mix of infinite radios and newspapers and give them a new arc around 25-30 to showcase the new Outcasts.

I know, it'd be a lot of work to do this, but come on, give me a bit more costumed variety of criminals.

Either that, or bulk out the unique supervillain/heroes from Safeguard and Mayhem bosses' numbers, definitely more than the paltry 4 per 10 level band, maybe something like 6-8 per band, and proliferate them to colluding with other gangs and have them turn up in radios and paper missions. Heck, if you wanted to get really ambitious, tweak them out so that there's say 2 or 3 different costumed supervillain types that only work with set groups per level band. So, you'd have 2 or 3 brand spanking new supervillains that work specifically with Council or Circle of Thorns or Freakshow etc.

Barring the TWO tier 9 popping Elec armor jerks and the TWO AR/traps guys in the 25-39 range, they're all a nice bit of color/something different. Seriously, 30-50 is the longest stretch of the game, it'd be nice if there was a little more variety of supervillains in the safeguards and mayhems to fill the superhero/villain quotient of the game, without it having to be some life-threatening/world ending/city endangering going on. At the very least, drop one of each of the elec/elec brutes and ar/traps corruptors in the 25-39 range and give us something else. I know there's a psychic something or other and ninja/ninja not quite stalker in that range too, but thanks to the fact that there's two of both Elec/elec brutes and AR/traps running around in that band it kind of throws off the odds.

I need some more spandex clad superhero fun in the main portion of the game grind.

I'll /sign this thread and just about everything in it!

But more than just level range extension, I'd like to see some more diversity in enemies per-level.
For example make Dual Pistol Hellion and Skulls Lieutenants, I mean their street gangs, why wouldn't they go Gangsta, homie?
Another big one would be to give Nemesis and Sky Raiders human bosses, and on the note of sky raiders, they should probably have like a non-humanoid flying drone, kind of like the Zenith hover bots and maybe an elite boss version of their Sky Skiff for some special arcs.
Next, there's the KoA, seriously, have less diversity than Hellions and Skulls with no special bosses, how sad is that. The lack of diversity is even more jarring when you consider that they're supposed to be "masters of a diverse number of weapons" but all I see are swords, wrist crossbows, shiruken, caltrops, and grenades. I would kind of imagine that maybe there'd be a few that, I dunno, used a gun?
Though I suppose it can't be helped when the KoA are being deliberately left under developed in story beyond being Malta's harem girls.
Going over to Malta I'd like to see their outdoor mobs change, I mean seriously, Malta's cover should have been blown by the first hour of their existence if they just tromp around Peregrine in broad daylight like that with their GIANT MECHA! And am I the only one who wonders why a spec ops group would be so utterly devoid of things like snipers?
But yeah, if Malta has to stay outside, then I'd like to see an outdoor spawn version that pretends to blend in with the common folk like Nemesis Automatons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

Signed. Like these ideas very, very much. New powers, customization, let's refresh some of the old baddies and update them. I like the idea of having a higher level arc for these groups with an AV and maybe even badges to go along with it. Some of the best arcs are Faultline (hands down), Colleen Saramango, Dr. Vhazhilok, loved that one, Countess Crey. There are lot's, but bringing back some of these groups with similar arcs would be great. Love the idea of Boomtown, maybe a TF, same with the Hollows, I actually like the Hollows and usually solo, except for FF, which is good as well.

bumping this thread for great justice!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

Completely agreed! I'd love to see the Hellions return later on, maybe bring back a few groups for the later groups. As was mentioned, the Skulls're effecting the Banished Pantheon, so how about they make a deal with them, then the Hellions with the Circle of Thorns leading to an arc about a big fight between the factions?

Then of course the Outcasts, I can totally see them returning in the 25-35 area, maybe as a proper mutant gang of hire, selling their abilities to the highest bidder for protection/heists/attacks. I can imagine them doing some work under the table with Crey, or the Freakshow..

And then, of course, Doctor Vahzilok, the big guy himself. With the cross-faction happening with the Freakshow for villainside, why not a later level Heroside arc detailing a temporary alliance between the Vahz and Freaks?

With that, the Freakshow Meat Doctors can be introduced to Heroes, maybe add buzzsaw weapons to Tank Swipers, or even a Tank Gunner with a Dr Vahz. style arm gun attached to them (I don't know why there aren't any Freak Tanks with gatling guns/rocket launchers yet, seriously).

Minions for the Vahz could be varying Mortificators with hack saws, buzzsaws, repeating crossbows, Freakshow cybernetics ect. Reanimated Heroes/Villains Lieutenants for the Mortificators to ressurect aswell as Meat Doctors, with Freakshow cybernetic enhanced Eidolon bosses. Throw in an EB/AV Freak Tank/Eidolon mix as the end boss and voila, updated villain group and end of arc boss for an epic addition to the mid-late game.

So, randomly, here's a rough idea about some new additions and level range enhancements for a few of the villain groups and powers...

Skulls
Minions-
Gravedigger Ghoul (lvls 5-14): Pistol, Shadow Punch, Res: (Neg 20, En -20)
Death Head Buckshot (Lvls 30-34): Buckshot, Slug, Death Shroud, Res: (Neg 20, En -20)
Death Head Gunner (lvls 30-34): Burst, Heavy Burst, Death Shroud, Res: (Neg 20, En -20)
Death Head Pistoleer (lvls 30-34): Pistols, Dual Wield, Empty Clips, Death Shroud, Res: (Neg 20, En -20)

Lt.s-
Death Head Pistoleer (lvls 1-14): Pistols, Dual Wield, Res: (Neg 20, En -20)
Death Head Shade (lvls 5-14): Ghastly Blast, Res: (Neg 20, En -20, Undead)
Bone Daddy Lich (lvls 30-34): Zombie Horde, Gloom, Chill of the Night, Res: (Neg 20, En -20, Undead)
Ghost Daddy (lvls 30-34): Ghastly Blast, Dark Blast, Soul Drain, Siphon Life, Res: (Neg 20, En -20, undead)

Bosses-
Shadow Man (lvls 30-34): Tenebrous Tentacles, Ghastly Blast, Dark Pit, Siphon Life, Shadow Maul, Soul Transfer, Chill of the Night, Res: (Neg 20, En -20, undead)

This is all just a rough idea, and to be honest quite a few of these elements are things I'm planning to use in an AE arc myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

I'm - ambivalent about it.

Minor stretches for some groups, sure, just to extend writing possibilities - but I really don't see the Hellions and Skulls being a threat into the 30s. Their storylines do lend themselves to a "bleed over" into other groups. Filling out their stories? Sure. But a basic street gang (which, even with their powers, they are in Paragon) *should* fade away. (And running across a few Skulls in a later Malta mission, with them barely taking more than a Brawl or two to take down, gives a good feel that your character has really advanced.)

On the other hand, yeah, some groups just vanish way too fast. The Tsoo, for instance, have a *lot* going on internally that we don't get to see (all the boss types, etc.) But they just sort of go "poof." They shouldn't be a "still fighting at 50" threat, but they could use more exploration.

My main level-range beef, though, tends to be the Banished Pantheon. They vanish by the 30s, then suddenly come back up in the 40s. (Alternate dimension, sure, but still BP.) This really came to light in AE's release. There's a lot that could be done with them - they had the power to sacrifice a city zone, they're fighting the CoT (and their deities are as old, if not older,) but we don't really get to go in depth with them either.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I just hate the Tsoo as soon as you move onto the Ink Men. They are BORING. They all look the same, and spam you with the same power for the entire group range.
The Enforcer level goons, Tiger, Dragon, Crane, etc. THey all LOOK unique and they all have unique attack styles. MUCH more cool.

The same is true of Crey once you hit the high levels. It just becomes one, long, BORING power-suit fight. Which I despise with a passion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.