Maybe you need to play against pink conning enemies to see the true potential of radiation. Or a +3 ITF. Or as small team playing a higher diff.
Anyway, I don't find there's a 'this is better' answer to your question. Depends on what you enjoy more, you'll be effective. The only primary I find underwhelming (and ppl may curse me for that) is Trick Arrow. All the others provide enough to the team that you'll contribute a lot, go with what you like.
Dark is interesting, not very busy and has a mix of healing/rez/debuffs and no need to buff teammates all the time, and has more mitigation than most other sets due to fearsome stare alone (and you can get a hold if you want too).
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You have discovered one of the key challenges of playing a set like Radiation.|
Originally Posted by Galaxia
Having recently played a Rad defender and hating it, I've come to wonder which is better in todays teaming environment, buffing or debuffing.
I found debuffing spawns to be troublesome in a fast moving team, my anchors got killed almost instantly even when placed on a LT or a boss. It seemed like my debuffs were ineffectual, the team would slaughter everything regardless. So if I were to choose a more buff set oriented set, which would be better? A more pure buff set like FF or Empathy, or a sort of hybrid buff/debuff set like sonic or cold? |
Having done Radiation Emission many times on teams, including 3-maning the Posi-TF with a Tank and a Scrapper from my SG, I can certainly empathize with your troubles.
For me the key to playing Radiation on a team was trying to outwit the "scrapper-lock" of my team mates. The best thing you can do on a fast moving team is throw Radiation Infection on the "hard" targets like Bosses, so that even if they go down fast you are guaranteed that they contributed. Also on fast teams, I often would just use 1 of the 2 toggles and then only re-apply if the fight started going sour. Which toggle would depend on the team make-up. RI on a more fragile team (taking more damage than the healing could control) or EF on a more "robust" team or a very AoE happy team (Blasters
) in order to speed up killing.With that all being said, I definitely prefer playing a "buff-oriented" defender on teams.
I dont have to worry about my anchors getting dropped. But that doesnt mean "buffing" is for everyone either. A buffing defender has to work hard to keep the buffs on as many as possible. Which is compounded more by a fast-moving team (sometimes your buff target has run off or is lagging behind). You will feel like your mainly buffing and not doing much blasting. And after a particularly long play session you may even get "burned-out" on buffing.
Trying to be fair and give you the "downside" of both types of defenders, you really need to decide which one offers the least annoying side effect (toggle-drop, buff-fatigue) and then go from there. Of the "buff" sets I would say that FF is the least stressfull to play on a team. You need to click the same 2 buttons every few minutes for every teammate but other than that its fun-fun-fun of blasting and re-positioning bad-guys. On the De-buff side of the house I think Trick Arrow (even though I have never played it) would offer the least headaches in a teaming environment since there are no toggles to drop.
I apologize for the ramble, but hopefully there is something here that helps you decide.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I don't hear so much a difference between buff and debuff as anchors vs. click powers. Cold is click except for snowstorm; I always take snowstorm. Dark is mostly debuff, with one anchor that is pretty sweet, but can be hard to track. Trick arrow and Traps are both very clicky no toggles, but nice debuffs. Forcefield is mainly buff, has a toggle buff, and no anchors. Empathy is all clicks, all buffs. Storm is mostly all debuff, it has clicks, toggles, and an anchor in snowstorm; I always take snowstorm. I have to add that storm plays like no other defender set. I guess most defender sets are pretty different. Happy Alting!
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Hehe, this made me chuckle Psylenz|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
.... I guess most defender sets are pretty different. Happy Alting!
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I'd suggest a cold defender if you're looking to experiment. They're boring buff-bots at the lower levels, but once they get sleet they can make a big difference both offensively and defensively
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Originally Posted by Galaxia
So if I were to choose a more buff set oriented set, which would be better? A more pure buff set like FF or Empathy, or a sort of hybrid buff/debuff set like sonic or cold?
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you can actually contribute even in a fast paced team as a rad debuffer with a trick i picked up from a friend a while back. Since on a fast team anything shy of a boss isnt gonna live long enuff for the debuff to last anyway debuff the bosses. The easy way to do this is make a targetcustomnext macro that you can edit per mission pretty darn easy. like say yer goin into a malta group mission. your macro would be like /macro Boss "targetcustomnext gunslinger$$targetcustomnext commander$$target customnext zeus" this will allow you to hit the gunslingers, tac ops commanders, and zeus titans first without having to search them out. you could bind it to your number pad if you wanted to and have like numpad8 be the target and numpad 4,5,6 or whatever be enervating field, rad infection, and lingering rad. (just example, thats whats comfy for my hand). i suggest the macro instead of the bind so you can edit at the start of each mission. but itll let you pick out the boss fast, debuff him hard, and the fast moving team is moving that much faster. ive played both debuffers and buffers to 50 several times so far and my own opinion is that i prefer debuffs. the reason behind it is that players do quite a bit to their own toons already to make themselves awesome. set bonuses, and just plain skill that sometimes buffs are overkill. like putting forcefields on a SR scrapper who is already capped out for defense seems a waste. but debuffing the resists of the mob that scrapper is attacking is win/win. I hope that trick here helps you enjoy rad. cuz its really a fun set.
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just a note: if im understanding you correctly, this is way too much work. having to do a macro before each mission is more work than, I atleast, would wanna do especially when its easier to just normal target but to each their own i guess.|
Originally Posted by Griff Mender
you can actually contribute even in a fast paced team as a rad debuffer with a trick i picked up from a friend a while back. Since on a fast team anything shy of a boss isnt gonna live long enuff for the debuff to last anyway debuff the bosses. The easy way to do this is make a targetcustomnext macro that you can edit per mission pretty darn easy. like say yer goin into a malta group mission. your macro would be like /macro Boss "targetcustomnext gunslinger$$targetcustomnext commander$$target customnext zeus" this will allow you to hit the gunslingers, tac ops commanders, and zeus titans first without having to search them out. you could bind it to your number pad if you wanted to and have like numpad8 be the target and numpad 4,5,6 or whatever be enervating field, rad infection, and lingering rad. (just example, thats whats comfy for my hand). i suggest the macro instead of the bind so you can edit at the start of each mission. but itll let you pick out the boss fast, debuff him hard, and the fast moving team is moving that much faster. ive played both debuffers and buffers to 50 several times so far and my own opinion is that i prefer debuffs. the reason behind it is that players do quite a bit to their own toons already to make themselves awesome. set bonuses, and just plain skill that sometimes buffs are overkill. like putting forcefields on a SR scrapper who is already capped out for defense seems a waste. but debuffing the resists of the mob that scrapper is attacking is win/win. I hope that trick here helps you enjoy rad. cuz its really a fun set.
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the biggest difference i've come to is, obviously, your playstyle and who you play with. For me, I can't stand just buffing and attacking and prefer to debuff and attack since its more active. also, i tend to team with more experienced players so most of the survivability buffs, like ff sonic and emp, isn't nearly as helpful as say a cold or dark.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
As some people have touched on, I think a Cold Defender is a nice mix of buff and debuff. I have played a rad, dark, and cold and they are all lots of fun. But if you are trying to decide between Buff or Debuff try out cold and you can have some of both.
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ok yeah just a lil misunderstanding. i dont make a new one each time. i have a base macro i edit the names on each time i go after a mission. you just select edit on the macro already premade and change the name. takes like....3 seconds. and it lets you flawlessly target the boss in any group right away and debuff the hooha out of him (hooha is a medical term) in most arcs you dont even need to change it since the group you face is the same. tho this is slightly tainted that i am a macro/bind freak.
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
just a note: if im understanding you correctly, this is way too much work. having to do a macro before each mission is more work than, I atleast, would wanna do especially when its easier to just normal target but to each their own i guess.
the biggest difference i've come to is, obviously, your playstyle and who you play with. For me, I can't stand just buffing and attacking and prefer to debuff and attack since its more active. also, i tend to team with more experienced players so most of the survivability buffs, like ff sonic and emp, isn't nearly as helpful as say a cold or dark. |
Anchor-debuffs are rough on a high DPS team... then you run into an AV and you're happy you have those toggles. (Or you get separated on a +4/x8 teams, but you decide you can take that spawn by yourself anyway.) Location-based debuffs w/long animations aren't much better. By the time I get around to Disruption Arrow (after OSA, Acid, etc), most things are dead. Just be happy things are dying fast w/o your full 100% participation; this means you're on a good team. BTW, EF is fast casting enough that I'll use it on high DPS teams (yes, everything would die w/o EF, but they die faster w/EF), but rarely RI. Until the team gets hit w/a fat -to hit debuff or that PP went MoG on you, and you'll be happy you have it again.
Teams like that, I like my Cold the best--buffs, shields & a fast casting/recharging debuff that does pretty much everything w/one application (Sleet: -res, -def, KD, slow, minor damage). Big targets get Benumb. I'll still take my Rad on AV fights, though I know the Rad vs. Cold is still hotly debated. Son's nice too, since the anchored debuff goes on a teammate, not a mob. Dark just kicks butt on many levels, but on those fast moving teams, I rarely bother w/Darkest Night. Tar Patch always though.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Here's the tricks of all the sets:
Rad: Everything dies faster, so toggles die. Mez drops toggles too. The heal is a tad weak.
Dark: A toggle to worry about. Tar patch is a tad slow, heals/rezzes require a target.
Kinetics: Constant buffing for best contribution, almost no protection, heals require target/close proximity.
Empathy: Reactive in its protection from danger, with higher levels of mitigation on long timers. (Thus limiting their contribution.) Nothing to weaken foes.
Trick arrow: Somewhat positional, very recharge-based, more focused on weakening than any sort of buffs. Longish mitigation powers.
Cold: Shield maintenance, late debuffs, an anchor to worry about.
Storm: Limited buffs, knockback mitigation problematic if misused, heal not that great
Forcefield: Shield maintenance. Only mitigation/knockback. Nothing to weaken foes. Defense can have 'unlucky' streaks.
Sonic: Shield maintenance. Strong ammounts of mitigation/debuffing, little to prevent damage.
Traps: Location/recharge based, so moving/fast battles are problematic.
All sets have a weaknesses. These will peeve you when you play them...some can be overcome easily, or overlooked. But they will bug you at times. You know what, though? It's the price to pay for your strengths.
Radiation makes stuff die faster, but needs something living to function. The best I can say is this: figure what lives longest, go for that. But realize when stuff dies fast, it's because your powers are working well. Treat those toggles as clicks that happen to stay on if you'e lucky. If stuff is dying really fast, just use enervating field from your toggles. It has a faster cast, but still helps stuff keel over well.
I see the value between buffing and debuffing easily put as such: Teams doing fast-moving general battles, moving through mobs, etc. find buffs more handy. There's a set-it-and-forget-it element to most buffs that helps to keep from slowing things down. However, whenever anything occurs to slow down the steady roll, an AV, an odd spawn of several mobs in close proximity, a death room configuration, debuffs are more valuable.
Just a general rule of thumb.
Never argue with stupid people. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
@vanda1 and @nakoa2
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One exception to this is Sonic Disruption. Ally Anchored Toggle Debuff. The ally part makes it the best anchored debuff in the game IMO.(From a strictly convenience standpoint at least.)
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Originally Posted by PuceNonagon
I see the value between buffing and debuffing easily put as such: Teams doing fast-moving general battles, moving through mobs, etc. find buffs more handy.
Just a general rule of thumb. |
Here's how I tend to view it:
Buff Pros:
Work the same regardless of team speed
Are unaffected by difficulty settings
Are unaffected by enemy resistances
Buff Cons:
Are generally weaker than debuffs
Most of them don't have enhanceable magnitudes
Don't always scale up with team size (and rarely scale up above the standard 8-man team)
Debuff Pros:
Are generally stronger than buffs and most have enhanceable magnitudes (and sometimes better enhancement values)
Once they are cast on an enemy they work for all players engaging him
Require less time to use than buffs (on average)
Debuff Cons:
Are subject to the purple patch and enemy resistances
Have reduced effectiveness on fast moving teams
Having recently played a Rad defender and hating it, I've come to wonder which is better in todays teaming environment, buffing or debuffing.
I found debuffing spawns to be troublesome in a fast moving team, my anchors got killed almost instantly even when placed on a LT or a boss. It seemed like my debuffs were ineffectual, the team would slaughter everything regardless.
So if I were to choose a more buff set oriented set, which would be better? A more pure buff set like FF or Empathy, or a sort of hybrid buff/debuff set like sonic or cold?