Tankers aren't needed blue-side. They aren't an integral part of blue-side teams.
Then again, there is no AT in the game that is. Same holds true red-side.
Think of tankers as melee controllers. They dictate who the enemy can and can't attack, much like a controller. Taunt and gauntlet combine to reduce incoming damage to the rest of the team by a significant amount that is rarely appreciated. A well-played tanker helps to focus the support the team needs. Instead of healing the whole team, the defenders and controllers can simply focus on keeping one person alive; the tanker takes care of the rest.
Brutes, like scrappers, exist to do damage. It's their purpose. Tankers can do damage, but it isn't their purpose in a 'team role' kind of way.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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Originally Posted by Zero_Oblivion
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being the guy soaking up all of the damage and aggro
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That's all you need to know, and anything someone tells you to the contrary tell them to suck it.
Controllers can make Defenders less useful, Scrappers make Blasters less useful and so on.
With the right buffs anything can Tank, but that isn't the point, do you like being Thor wielding pain in the middle of 16 adversaries all by yourself, then most players hero side play a Tank.
And besides that, a Tank being the least likely to be defeated without buffs can have a very large roll on a team when it's played right, with even damage being raised considerably with set slotting.
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Originally Posted by Acemace
That's all you need to know, and anything someone tells you to the contrary tell them to suck it.
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I'll agree with this. I have several tankers. Well, two main ones. One Invul/SS started long ago when I first joined, and one Shield/War Mace that I started right after the Shield set became available. Both are my only blue-side toons over level 30. I just play the tankers more than any other set.
Tankers are fun to play. Period. It's fun to be the first one in to a group of enemies, and it's fun to be the one that everyone is depending on to be tough and stand up to the mobs while the players do their thing. They don't need you, true, but they do rely on you nevertheless.
Tankers are also easy to solo. Don't have a team? No problem. Jump in a mish and putter away. You won't go very fast, but you'll get the job done.
Blasters can be fun but I don't like the glass part of being a glass cannon. Defenders are darn hard to solo and can be really squishy also. That leaves controllers (they're fun enough) and tankers. I prefer the tanker.
YMMV, but that's why I play them.
Tankers redirect enemy fire better than anyother hero AT and quite simply that can be helpful.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
There's also that infamous difference between theory and practice. While theory says that Scrappers can be tough enough to take on anything and some of them can even hold aggro, actual play heroside will, if one plays more difficult missions at higher difficulties, show many situations where even an "invincible" Scrapper gets defeated and the team crumbles. Tankers fall too, and of course can be played badly; but surprisingly often the addition of a solid Tanker will turn a frustrated struggling rabble into a smoothly-operating machine.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Provided of course that the tanker is competent... unfortunately that particular item is much less common than many of us like to admit. A GOOD tanker is a treasure for a team and will enhance any team's performance. A mediocre or worse tanker can easily end up being a drag instead of a help and I run into more of the latter category than the former.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
There's also that infamous difference between theory and practice. While theory says that Scrappers can be tough enough to take on anything and some of them can even hold aggro, actual play heroside will, if one plays more difficult missions at higher difficulties, show many situations where even an "invincible" Scrapper gets defeated and the team crumbles. Tankers fall too, and of course can be played badly; but surprisingly often the addition of a solid Tanker will turn a frustrated struggling rabble into a smoothly-operating machine.
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There are good to excellent tankers out there however... and if you're one of them you tend to be remembered and people will look for you to team with in the future.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Well, that's what I meant by saying "a solid Tanker." |
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Provided of course that the tanker is competent...
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Obviously other meanings of solid are "inert" and "nothing gets through."
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Yep, I was just thinking about an ITF I ran recently and the "tanker" was such a worthless cowardly waste of space that I had to take over his duties with my Dark/Dark defender. He was Invuln/something (never saw him actually USE anything but Jump Kick) who at level 50 had exactly 3 powers from the primary, RPD, Resist Elements and Unstoppable. Of course trying to suggest (via tell to avoid embarrassing him in front of the team) he may need to rethink his build resulted in the famous "I know what I'm doing NOOB". Ah well, adapt and overcome for the duration of the TF and 1 star the idiot for the future. It WAS one looooong ITF though.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Well, that's what I meant by saying "a solid Tanker."
Obviously other meanings of solid are "inert" and "nothing gets through." |
My apologies, I guess that had gotten further under my skin than I'd thought.
I suppose in the last 5 years I've teamed with about 10% really good tankers, 60% competent and 30% of varying degrees from poor to useless. In the mid-upper levels you tend to find the best ratio of competent/incompetent... most of the truly bad ones don't last past the 20's.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
My apologies, I guess that had gotten further under my skin than I'd thought.
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It can be upsetting on several levels. One you have to team with them, but also you feel bad because they're obviously not going to have as much fun with their build as they could.
I remember duoing with a SS/Invul Brute red-side with my SS/Elec Brute. I noticed the other guy seemed way squishier than me, so I eventually inspected his build. To my horror, I found that he had taken only the passives (this was before the boost to Invul) and Unyeilding. No Temp Invul, no Dull Pain, no Invincible.
I queried him about it and he at least was willing to talk about it. He didn't take Temp Invul because he didn't want a power that was "temporary." Oh, OK. Confused by the name. It happens. Likewise he didn't know what most of the other powers really did. I prevailed on him to meet me blue side and showed him what Dull Pain did on my Invul/SS tanker. That much at least is very visible. Next time I bumped into him, he had taken the power.
So some folks are teachable. Don't give up, just keep plugging away at them. They'll often listen eventually.
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Dude, all-controller ITF's. All defender ITF's. All Tanker ITF's. All scrapper ITF's. All-blaster old-style Positrons. |
Originally Posted by Zero_Oblivion
Hi Everyone,
I've been playing mostly red-side where most claim that Brutes aren't tanks and, indeed, tanks aren't needed. Why is this different blue-side? |
I have seen or participated in all of the above. No archetype is needed, ever.
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| Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being the guy soaking up all of the damage and aggro as I've played my share of EQ 1 and 2 and WoW. I see lots of talk on the scrapper forums about soloing 4 AVs at once, though, and I know that scrappers deal out more damage. So, I assume that tanks are able to take even more punishment. Are tanks an integral part of teams, blue-side? |
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| How much less damage do they put out than scrappers? |
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Is the loss in damage worth the extra beefiness? Thanks in advance for enlightening a blue-side noob. 
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That said, I find that a tanker's most valuable contribution to a team is completely intangible.
More than any other archetype, a good tankers REAL job is to give the team confidence.
If all else fails, a good tanker will keep the team active and involved, give time to recover from a near-total wipeout, be able to drop wakies and drag away aggro, just generally give the team confidence that no matter what, they can handle it.
And that's a valuable thing.
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I've always felt that "tanker" is something of a misnomer. In the military, tanks are offensive in their proper role -- they can be used defensively, but often it's a waste of their strategic potential. France had more, and better, tanks than Germany in 1940, and deployed them spread out across the front so everywhere they were attacked there were tanks defending...and look how well that worked for them.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
More than any other archetype, a good tankers REAL job is to give the team confidence.
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It's entirely too late to change the usage, but I think "Anvil" might be a better term. Or "Anchor." Tankers are both an anvil for the enemies to beat against and an anchor for the team.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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This right here pretty much sums up why I have a bunch of tanks. Tanking is more a mind set then a power set. It is about being That guy everyone wants to beat on. It is about protecting the team by making everyone beat on you. It is about being an unstoppable Juggernaut of pain and discontent. |
Originally Posted by Acemace
do you like being Thor wielding pain in the middle of 16 adversaries all by yourself, then most players hero side play a Tank.
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And hell it is a lot of fun.
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I disagree with that. Put a Fire/Fire Blaster in a group with a Tanker and the Blaster will redirect enemy fire.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Tankers redirect enemy fire better than anyother hero AT and quite simply that can be helpful.
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And, quite simply, that can be humorous.
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You will return, for you are the mighty City of Paragon, the City of Heroes.
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Brutes are not Tanks.|
Originally Posted by Zero_Oblivion
Hi Everyone,
I've been playing mostly red-side where most claim that Brutes aren't tanks and, indeed, tanks aren't needed. |
Tanks are not needed (neither are Brutes).
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Originally Posted by Zero_Oblivion
Why is this different blue-side?
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Not being needed does not mean "not useful".
Tankers are very useful to both Blue-side and co-op teams.
One reason they are so sought after on Blue-side teams is because they tend to make life easier and safer for ATs that aren't as self sufficient as most of the Red-side ATs tend to be.
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THIS is exactly my own opinion on the matter... tanking is more about attitude than anything else. That first one in, "you'll get to my team over my dead body" attitude is what makes a competent tanker into a good one. Adding that attitude to aggro management skills turns a good tanker into a great tanker.|
Originally Posted by Substrate
This right here pretty much sums up why I have a bunch of tanks. Tanking is more a mind set then a power set. It is about being That guy everyone wants to beat on. It is about protecting the team by making everyone beat on you. It is about being an unstoppable Juggernaut of pain and discontent.
And hell it is a lot of fun. |
Technique isn't all that hard to pick up, but the true tanker ATTITUDE is much harder.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Anyone can roll a tanker. Not everyone can be a tank.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Thanks, everyone, for the info. I am definitely on board. I think I may roll a Mace/Invul tanker. Invulerability seems to be a pretty hard set from the talk I've seen on the forums. Can anyone comment on the combo?
Thanks!
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I just wanted to quote this, cos it pretty much sums up all the ATs in CoH. None are needed for anything (even the Mo badges don't need a specific AT, let alone a specific build), but all can bring something useful to the table.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Not being needed does not mean "not useful".
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On my IOed out scrapper, I can take almost much any punishment the game thows at me, but I still love to have a tanker. Why? Cos he can control the aggro and let me focus solely on killing things.
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Invuln/Mace should be quite competent; it has a decent amount of AOE and a fair amount of soft control with the knockdown in several attacks coupled with, in my opinion, the best all-around tanker primary. Built to the soft cap it can rival Granite for durability and really has no downsides. The much-discussed "psi hole" is far more fiction than fact in my experience since Psi is so rarely encountered.|
Originally Posted by Zero_Oblivion
Thanks, everyone, for the info. I am definitely on board. I think I may roll a Mace/Invul tanker. Invulerability seems to be a pretty hard set from the talk I've seen on the forums. Can anyone comment on the combo?
Thanks! |
I think you'd do quite well with that combination although I would suggest looking at my first 20 levels guide for the key aspects of Invuln.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Firstly, to avoid possible flaming in the tank section, stop 'thinking like a brute'. A brute would be mace/invuln. A tank would be invuln/mace since the defense set is primary. |
Originally Posted by Zero_Oblivion
Thanks, everyone, for the info. I am definitely on board. I think I may roll a Mace/Invul tanker. Invulerability seems to be a pretty hard set from the talk I've seen on the forums. Can anyone comment on the combo?
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I agree with invuln being a very strong set. I also feel it's a very good set for a first-time tanker (along with willpower).
As for that combo, I've never played mace. I have played axe, which is very similar in damage output (but while axe does knockdown, mace is a stun set). My only comment would be that, if you slot for stun duration at all, don't go nuts with it. My first tank was invuln/energy melee and when I got to use Hamidon enhancements (there were no IO's back then), I went nuts with the stun duration and it was annoying. You don't want the enemies wandering all over the place since you get a defense buff AND a to hit buff by having enemies NEAR you.
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Thanks for the advice. I have read your excellent guide, Call_Me_Awesome. My only concern is that you advise having only 1 attack until level 4 and only 2 until level 10. Are you assuming being teamed right from level 1? I find that I often have trouble finding teams for the first few levels and resort to soloing and having so few attacks seems like it would slow things down significantly. Of course, being on a team, the lack of attacks is less of an issue. Care to elaborate? (I have never played a tanker, though, so my experience is with other ATs)
Thanks for your comments, Ironblade. I did indeed make the mistake of saying Mace/Invuln, lol. Every other AT i've ever played has their attack set listed first...it is a tough habit to break.
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Level 4 is reachable in 20 minutes so frankly I don't worry overmuch about effectiveness in those levels. If you're worried about attacks you can always load up on them and then swap to your 2nd build around 10-15 and use that "ghetto respec" to change to a better foundation. If you go that route you'll probably want to delay the fitness prereq and toss your tier 2 or 3 attack in there and plan on dumping it on respec. |
Originally Posted by Zero_Oblivion
Thanks for the advice. I have read your excellent guide, Call_Me_Awesome. My only concern is that you advise having only 1 attack until level 4 and only 2 until level 10. Are you assuming being teamed right from level 1? I find that I often have trouble finding teams for the first few levels and resort to soloing and having so few attacks seems like it would slow things down significantly. Of course, being on a team, the lack of attacks is less of an issue. Care to elaborate? (I have never played a tanker, though, so my experience is with other ATs)
Thanks for your comments, Ironblade. I did indeed make the mistake of saying Mace/Invuln, lol. Every other AT i've ever played has their attack set listed first...it is a tough habit to break. |
You'll find that a really effective Invuln build gets very tight squeezing everything in... you'll do better as a tank to get the key Invuln powers into your build ASAP... that's why my template gets you to 20 with all the really crucial powers in place. Getting the most performance out of an Invuln requires some sacrifices; there's only so many powers you'll have room for so you have to prioritize.
Even before level 4 you'll have your tier 1 attack, brawl and your origin power; that's plenty to pound your way through the starting missions. Yeah, you'll have gaps in your attack chain... but that's a given until much later in your build in any case.
Good luck with your tanker!
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
also I see you reg'd back in 2004 so hopefully you have a few vet powers. Sands of MU is also a great attack chain filler for low level tanks (or anyone really).
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One common comic term for what is essentially the tanker is "brick".|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
It's entirely too late to change the usage, but I think "Anvil" might be a better term. Or "Anchor." Tankers are both an anvil for the enemies to beat against and an anchor for the team.
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Then there's also the semi-derogatory "meat shield".
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Hi Everyone,
I've been playing mostly red-side where most claim that Brutes aren't tanks and, indeed, tanks aren't needed. Why is this different blue-side? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being the guy soaking up all of the damage and aggro as I've played my share of EQ 1 and 2 and WoW. I see lots of talk on the scrapper forums about soloing 4 AVs at once, though, and I know that scrappers deal out more damage. So, I assume that tanks are able to take even more punishment. Are tanks an integral part of teams, blue-side? How much less damage do they put out than scrappers? Is the loss in damage worth the extra beefiness? Thanks in advance for enlightening a blue-side noob.