Apples and oranges, one set has nothing to do with the other.
I would agree with you in all honesty, however seeing as they are both new to the table and seemingly designed to bring a little something extra to the table it hardly seems "fair" to use the term for a lack of better words to place a limit on one and not the other.I hardly see the downside to allowing Dp to use their full arsenal rather than keep them bound up while DS is a bit free to do all of it and more.
Absolutely an invalid comparison. DS cannot do as much straight up AoE damage as a DP out of the box, that doesn't mean DS isn't good. The elemental additions are really not very important in all honesty. You need to look at the numbers on everything, but comparing a ranged damage set to a MM set because of its type damage is silly. They have nothing to do with each other and damage type isn't a big deal at all.
"PvP Messiah"
You can't compare them to each other as damage-dealing sets because of shared elemental damage.
You can compare them as new sets, in which case DS wins because DP is bad.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
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The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
I am not seeing a valid comparison. It isn't like this is a comparison between DP for Corrs and DP for blasters. You are talking about powersets that are patently different. Moreover, you are comparing a summon set to a blast set. Of course they're going to feel different. It would be a pretty sad state of affairs if the powersets all felt the same. If you like DS- great there is a whole community of people that like it too. If you don't like DP, you are hardly alone there.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
DP is an acquired taste, but everyone likes having their DS'd
Yeah the comparison doesn't make sense. I totally agree with that. I like Demon Summoning 100 times better though. Never thought I would be a lover of a Master Mind power. I am wondering how much damage the whip can do alone withing the power set itself. I guess it wouldn't make sense to use it by itself though. I also think DM works extremely well with Poison. I am going to use this toon I have (Demoneeka) whenever I think about it. My main toon is going to be a Widow I just created a toon to save the name. Demon Summoning (as I knew it would) got me back to being a true Villain. This is the whole reason I got into this game: TO BE A VILLAIN. It is really awesome to see Villains get an exclusive powerset. To me Dual pistols got tedious. I guess I just hate range attacks, but I like controlling pets (go figure).
Okay that is my rant before I do my last twelve hour shift for the week. See you all on Freedom server. My global name is in fact She Unknown (that will be the name of my Widow when my second toon hits lvl 20).
THIS TOON IS NOW A HERO!
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ur mom asked me if i wanted my DS'd so i whipped it out|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
DP is an acquired taste, but everyone likes having their DS'd
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/rimshot
Comparing a Mastermind Primary to a Ranged Damage set is just ridiculous, as everyone else has mentioned.
Not every powerset that is "new" has to be "the best" in terms of numbers. Each powerset is good at something. Dual Pistols is good at some areas other powersets are not, and it's bad at some areas other powersets are not. I, personally, love Dual Pistols a lot more than Demon Summoning; especially after the recent tweaks to Hail of Bullets.
Demon Summoning is a well-rounded Mastermind set, possibly the best Mastermind set to some people. It doesn't mean, in any way, shape or form, that Dual Pistols must also follow the same pattern just because they're both "new" powersets.
Eh, maybe im going at this the wrong way, its not that the damage type is necesserily anything special i guess what im a bit confused about is youve got DS looks pretty beefy, and pretty solid of a set (almost feels op from what im hearing a lot) and youve got DP which feels very up, yet both of them were designed to come and bring something new to the table. DS has quite a bit to bring to the table from the looks of it, stacking - resistance, and a pretty decent army. Dp brings long animations (sweet looking ones but still) and lackluster rounds that at least for a corrupter hurts the dps once scourge is taken into place (because from what im seeing the elemental damage portion of the rounds doesnt scourge just the lethal). I am likely misguided in my way of thought but you folks are right in the sense that they are two different classes and shouldn't be compared in the sense.
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You keep talking about this "table" that DP and DS had to bring new things to.
Originally Posted by Solistion
Eh, maybe im going at this the wrong way, its not that the damage type is necesserily anything special i guess what im a bit confused about is youve got DS looks pretty beefy, and pretty solid of a set (almost feels op from what im hearing a lot) and youve got DP which feels very up, yet both of them were designed to come and bring something new to the table. DS has quite a bit to bring to the table from the looks of it, stacking - resistance, and a pretty decent army. Dp brings long animations (sweet looking ones but still) and lackluster rounds that at least for a corrupter hurts the dps once scourge is taken into place (because from what im seeing the elemental damage portion of the rounds doesnt scourge just the lethal). I am likely misguided in my way of thought but you folks are right in the sense that they are two different classes and shouldn't be compared in the sense.
DP and DS weren't designed specifically to bring something new to this "table" of yours, unless I've missed a developer speaking on this.
Recently, any powerset they have given us has had unique features. You get the Combo system with Dual Blades, you have a very offensive power in a Defensive set like Shields, you have a very unique defensive set like Willpower which mixes all form of damage protection, etc. etc.
Dual Pistols has incredibly unique "style" (not just in animations), with powers like Piercing Rounds and Hail of Bullets. It also has incredible adaptability to any situation by being able to switch damage type and secondary effects on the fly; which makes it an incredibly versatile set both for teams and when solo. And to a lot of people, it's just darn fun! But fun seems to be a long-forgotten concept to some people with their heads clouded by numbers and stats.
Demon Summoning is also unique because it's a more "active" mastermind set, with -RES effects, various types of demons, very unique animations and effects, and a solid gameplay with is also fun; especially with a very, very unique set of skills involving whipping, and an incredibly fun power to use: Hell on Earth.
Look past numbers and values for a few minutes. It's game. Have fun! Enjoy the fact that all your powers look ten times cooler than that other Corruptor who extends his/her arms and shoots INSERT_GENERIC_DAMAGE_TYPE out of his/her fists. Enjoy the fact that when an Elite Boss is resistant to most damage types, you can switch to Toxic Ammo and laugh at his shields.
Granted, I do agree that the Corruptor version of Dual Pistols needs a little buff to be slightly more functional besides being just fun. On the other hand, a lot of Corruptors have access to Buffs and DeBuffs that makes their primary attacks vastly superior to that of a Blasters (I'm talking about powers like Fulcrum Shift, Sleet, Tar Patch, Radiation toggles, etc). So I can understand why it is justified for Dual Pistols to be under-performing for Corruptors when USED PURELY ON ITS OWN.
And above all, again, just because a powerset is new, it doesn't mean it should be "top-tier".
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Actually i really enjoy my Dp very much, when i mean "table" i mean the uniqueness vs the standard and the hybrid class, Dp is the only powerset that brings together a system that allows you to change your powers to somewhat fit the situation. Demon summoning seems to bring all 3. I really enjoy your post because it is true, fun > all regardless of the numbers, however its a bit sad that Dp comes out and its considered one of the weakest blaster/defender*/and Corrupter set, and Demons comes out and its one of the best MM sets? not looking for high numbers, just a reason i suppose. Again i am sorry if i come off as a "FLAMEFLAMEQQ" poster, really not my intention, MMs work much differently than Corrupter but they do share very similar secondaries, one just has an army the other is ( solo (and i know its not black and white like that)
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Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
You keep talking about this "table" that DP and DS had to bring new things to. DP and DS weren't designed specifically to bring something new to this "table" of yours, unless I've missed a developer speaking on this. Recently, any powerset they have given us has had unique features. You get the Combo system with Dual Blades, you have a very offensive power in a Defensive set like Shields, you have a very unique defensive set like Willpower which mixes all form of damage protection, etc. etc. Dual Pistols has incredibly unique "style" (not just in animations), with powers like Piercing Rounds and Hail of Bullets. It also has incredible adaptability to any situation by being able to switch damage type and secondary effects on the fly; which makes it an incredibly versatile set both for teams and when solo. And to a lot of people, it's just darn fun! But fun seems to be a long-forgotten concept to some people with their heads clouded by numbers and stats. Demon Summoning is also unique because it's a more "active" mastermind set, with -RES effects, various types of demons, very unique animations and effects, and a solid gameplay with is also fun; especially with a very, very unique set of skills involving whipping, and an incredibly fun power to use: Hell on Earth. Look past numbers and values for a few minutes. It's game. Have fun! Enjoy the fact that all your powers look ten times cooler than that other Corruptor who extends his/her arms and shoots INSERT_GENERIC_DAMAGE_TYPE out of his/her fists. Enjoy the fact that when an Elite Boss is resistant to most damage types, you can switch to Toxic Ammo and laugh at his shields. Granted, I do agree that the Corruptor version of Dual Pistols needs a little buff to be slightly more functional besides being just fun. On the other hand, a lot of Corruptors have access to Buffs and DeBuffs that makes their primary attacks vastly superior to that of a Blasters (I'm talking about powers like Fulcrum Shift, Sleet, Tar Patch, Radiation toggles, etc). So I can understand why it is justified for Dual Pistols to be under-performing for Corruptors when USED PURELY ON ITS OWN. And above all, again, just because a powerset is new, it doesn't mean it should be "top-tier". |
That's because Masterminds have had only 5 primary powersets since the day City of Villains came out way back in Issue 6. Without Dual Pistols, Corruptors, Defenders, and Blasters have each had 9 primary (secondary for Defenders) powersets. Defenders, Corruptors, and Blasters did not need a powerset that would "shine" in terms of sheer performance. Masterminds did. That's one of the reasons for which, I think, Demon Summoning is the more powerful among the two sets that came out recently.
But that's still a very minor reason when put against the fact that there is no link between Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols in any way, and that there is absolutely no restriction that would suggest these two powersets should both be the "shining" powersets in their respective archetypes.
Yes, you can complain that Dual Pistols need a boost because it's not as powerful as other sets (eventhough I wouldn't agree with it). But you cannot complain that Demon Summoning is powerful and shiny, THEREFORE Dual Pistols needs to be powerful and shiny too. That's just a logical fallacy. 
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I can see that to a degree, MMs needing something more powerful than what they already are, the demons tanking abilities and their damage abilities far exceed any of the others, finding a lot of brutes already complaining with even one demon summoner its difficult to even hold aggro (eh im riding that one off as him probably not knowing how to hold it, due to a lot of new players in the game, but then again....) I can only say from what im seeing, but i believe the core of my "complaints" is more of a why does dp have to select from 3 very underpowered elemental rounds, and MMs can have all 3? and especially for Corrupters who's base ability scourge, only scourges the lethal part of, actually weakening the strikes if you had Swap ammo. I know some would say "well then just dont take SA" but that's a bit ignorant if you ask me. I think they put a bit more thought into DS vs DP and thats pretty sucky, one of the guys up top said something like "Different damage types isn't that big of a deal" which is true but the effects behind the rounds if placed together would make DP a nice and unique corrupter/blaster/defender Powerset. Fire doesn't stack but they last long enough to feel it, when it hits. the - damage is small, as is the slow from cryo, i just don't see why they placed limitations on the power of one, and not the other. |
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
That's because Masterminds have had only 5 primary powersets since the day City of Villains came out way back in Issue 6. Without Dual Pistols, Corruptors, Defenders, and Blasters have each had 9 primary (secondary for Defenders) powersets. Defenders, Corruptors, and Blasters did not need a powerset that would "shine" in terms of sheer performance. Masterminds did. That's one of the reasons for which, I think, Demon Summoning is the more powerful among the two sets that came out recently.
But that's still a very minor reason when put against the fact that there is no link between Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols in any way, and that there is absolutely no restriction that would suggest these two powersets should both be the "shining" powersets in their respective archetypes. Yes, you can complain that Dual Pistols need a boost because it's not as powerful as other sets (eventhough I wouldn't agree with it). But you cannot complain that Demon Summoning is powerful and shiny, THEREFORE Dual Pistols needs to be powerful and shiny too. That's just a logical fallacy. |
This will be my last post, less i feel the need to do more, but i thank you all very much for attempting to help me take in the thoughts, i do see your point miss bright, and i like your little dancing avatar
. It's just odd to see when they bring out a set as nice as Dp then have it be limited the way it is, at least from my view and only for the time being. I love Dp and it's been the most fun ive had in a looong time. I appreciate all the feedback and tossing of thoughts! Thank you
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Not even a valid reason actually. You can't balance pistols low on the basis that the archetypes using it have a lot of alternative options, the character can only take one at a time after all. In the same line you can't balance demons high on the basis that mercs suck.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
That's because Masterminds have had only 5 primary powersets since the day City of Villains came out way back in Issue 6. Without Dual Pistols, Corruptors, Defenders, and Blasters have each had 9 primary (secondary for Defenders) powersets. Defenders, Corruptors, and Blasters did not need a powerset that would "shine" in terms of sheer performance. Masterminds did. That's one of the reasons for which, I think, Demon Summoning is the more powerful among the two sets that came out recently.
But that's still a very minor reason... |
Ignoring the whole "you can't compare apples and oranges" thing since obviously you can, them both being fruit of approximately equal size and... ok, stretching analogy. Demons and pistols might be different sets on different archetypes; but that in no way invalidates the fact that they ought to be equally good at doing the job they are for.
And they are. Demon summoning lets you summon demons and unleash hell on earth. Dual pistols lets you prance about like a lunatic* and unleash remarkably few bullets in the same direction.
* No offence to any people that like the animations like this, but anyone that thinks a 360' spin between shots on the same target is a good use of time deserves whatever happens to them.
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Agreed. However, there is a backlog of underperforming sets. Dual Pistols needs to wait in line. Of the ones that are near to the top, Mercenaries probably needs it most.
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Originally Posted by Edana
Not even a valid reason actually. You can't balance pistols low on the basis that the archetypes using it have a lot of alternative options, the character can only take one at a time after all. In the same line you can't balance demons high on the basis that mercs suck.
Ignoring the whole "you can't compare apples and oranges" thing since obviously you can, them both being fruit of approximately equal size and... ok, stretching analogy. Demons and pistols might be different sets on different archetypes; but that in no way invalidates the fact that they ought to be equally good at doing the job they are for. And they are. Demon summoning lets you summon demons and unleash hell on earth. Dual pistols lets you prance about like a lunatic* and unleash remarkably few bullets in the same direction. * No offence to any people that like the animations like this, but anyone that thinks a 360' spin between shots on the same target is a good use of time deserves whatever happens to them. |
Maybe it's just me but anyone else feeling kind of robbed? sorry for any ignorance for my feeling this way, but Dual Pistols seem to have access to 1 of 3 elemental changes to their rounds, but Demon summoning has access to all 3. Demon summoning of course has quite a bit of damage to back up it's tankish style (Low level or high) i don't see why Dual pistols couldn't have had all 3 elemental damage combined with its initial ability without rounds. I haven't gone through the numbers and im sure someone will put me in my place about this, but at first glance and teaming with ....quite a few of them, its a bit difficult for me to see the justification in it. Any assistance in helping me understand would be welcomed.