My Energy Melee thoughts.
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2010-04-15 15:52 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I doubt any of this would happen at this point in the game. I think Whirling Hands could get a buff, but honestly anything more than that I don't see happening. It's designed as the ST melee set, but nowadays it just lags behind all else since the numerous changes to the set.
You're dead right.
The ability to solo 8-person maps has been a big nerf to this set on top of the changes made to Energy Transfer. Its also lost its PvP appeal with the changes to most resistance powers PVP functionality in I13.
My only 50 tanker is Dark/Energy, but that worked purely because I dual-box. I'd have another character applying AoE damage while she applied aggro-control, big ST damage and easy boss-level control.
I agree with you on Stun being almost useless. Not least because it has a fairly big wind-up time. A quick jab <1 s would almost make it worth taking now, as a fast "I need to stun this Paragon Protector NOW!" move maybe. But the set really does need better AoE, or better ST damage to really lift it.
I don't think there will be many if any changes to EM. Kinda goes back to the cottage rule, and you would be tearing that whole cottage down with the changes you are proposing. EM is just bad now. It is beyond salvage. The only thing you can do is just wait to see what Kinetic Melee will bring to the table.
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2. One of the sets that's best at single target damage is one of the worst at AoE damage. Oh my. Welcome to balance.
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LOL a set that no one wants to use is your idea of balance ?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
1. I knew you'd be back.
2. One of the sets that's best at single target damage is one of the worst at AoE damage. Oh my. Welcome to balance. |
On the more general topic of AoE vs single target balance, is there any case where single target damage is a good enough payback for reduced AoE?
This applies not just to Energy Melee, but also to Stalkers and Blaster Snipes. Single Target heavy hitter attacks never seem to hit quite hard enough in CoX.
I was kind of dissapointed with my first snipe to discover I needed Aim and Build Up and snipe to one-shot an even-con minion. Similarly, with my Stalkers, I don't always take down a +1 or +2 boss with Aim-Assassin Strike. Energy Melee's quick ET-TF combo was deemed a bit too good and recently got nerfed. All these powers already have special drawbacks, interruption, long cast times or self damage.
It strikes me that the devs could be a bit more generous with extreme ST damage, especially now that the ability to up your teamsize easily makes AoE much more attractive. Is there a tipping point? Is being able to whack a +0 Boss from safety too much? Or a +3 Leiutenant? Would that make soloing invincible laughably easy?
I'm inlcined to say that ST damage for all these extreme attacks could be upped a bit, and this would be my preferred fix for Energy melee. Am I missing something obvious?
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No one wants to use it cause people are sheep not cause its worse off at ST dmg than all the other sets.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
LOL a set that no one wants to use is your idea of balance ?
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You don't have to be a sheep to find being rooted for 6 seconds for your 2 heavy hitters and pathetically weak AoE obnoxious.|
Originally Posted by _Lith_
No one wants to use it cause people are sheep not cause its worse off at ST dmg than all the other sets.
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How popular do you think Broadsword would be if Headsplitter and Disembowel both had 2-3 second animations?
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About as popular as it is.
The majority of players don't notice long cast times, or care. I listened to someone talking about her rationale for keeping Total Focus was because it was great for pulling aggro. On her blaster.
Even if you could prove a plurality of support, popularity is still not a good measure for the balance of a powerset.
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Mkay, I don't have any energy melee numbers with me, so I'll just make up an example.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
1. I knew you'd be back.
2. One of the sets that's best at single target damage is one of the worst at AoE damage. Oh my. Welcome to balance. |
let's say power A has 500 damage single target and 3 seconds for activation time.
Let's say power B in another powerset has damage of 250, with the maximum of 10 targets with 1 second activation.
If it hits all 10 targets, that is 2500 points of damage in a third of the time.
That is a hypothetical example, but that is simply why thinking "AOE<ST" is flawed.
In my energy melee/elec character, lightning field, will oftentimes kill off enemies before i can kill them. Granted i also use whirling hands and electrifying fences, but that goes to show that the killing power of aoe is in many ways more efficent in large mobs.
Devs don't like AVs being tackled solo, among other things, so ST are usually first on the nerf block.
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Yes, people not wanting to play something doesn't neccessarily mean it's bad or poorly balanced, but it is indicative that something needs a closer look.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
About as popular as it is.
The majority of players don't notice long cast times, or care. I listened to someone talking about her rationale for keeping Total Focus was because it was great for pulling aggro. On her blaster. Even if you could prove a plurality of support, popularity is still not a good measure for the balance of a powerset. |
Look at Dominators and Stalkers before their respective AT buffs. I'm not sure how the numbers look now after the changes, but before they used to be the least popular villain ATs. They didn't need a buff because people hardly played them, people hardly played them because they needed a buff.
I think it's similar for EM now.
I'm not saying if something is unpopular it's always underpowered since there are plenty of sets that are fantastic but undervalued.
I do disagree about the Broadsword thing though. I think if you went to the average player and said, "Hey, how would you feel if Disembowel+Headsplitter took 5.97 seconds instead of 4.13?" They'd say they wouldn't care or notice, I mean, looking at the numbers it's only like a second and a bit, right? That's nothing.
But you can be damn sure they'd notice the feel of the attacks being much slower if they've played with the old animations.
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Considering it's not even "the best" single-target set and has the worst AoE of any melee set, considering comparing single-target and AoE damage is like comparing apples and oranges, and considering AoE damage is much, much, much more valuable in the majority of PvE encounters, I'm not sure I'd call that "balance" at all. If you could quantify single-target vs. AoE and say "Okay, here's the tipping point in balance between the two," and have sets conform to that, you might have a point, but as far as I'm aware there's no guidelines that say a powerset must be weak in one area because it is strong in another.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
2. One of the sets that's best at single target damage is one of the worst at AoE damage. Oh my. Welcome to balance.
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Let's look at some other melee sets:
* Broadsword: excellent single target, solid AoE (nice PBAoE and a nice cone, two if you count Headsplitter).
* Dark Melee: awesome single target, good AoE (requires a bit of positioning mojo to leverage Shadow Maul well but the ability is there nonetheless).
* Martial Arts: decent single target, mediocre AoE. (MA isn't a particularly great set for PvE either, so I'm not sure about this one.)
* Elec Melee: mediocre single target, excellent AoE. Ability to wipe out large numbers of enemies fast makes up for the lack of power in taking down single hard targets, as the majority of reward in a given spawn is the minions and lieutenants, not the bosses.
* Ice Melee: good single target, good AoE.
* Super Strength: excellent single target, excellent AoE.
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You met someone who didn't know what they were talking about, that doesn't equate to the majority of players not noticing long cast times.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
About as popular as it is.
The majority of players don't notice long cast times, or care. I listened to someone talking about her rationale for keeping Total Focus was because it was great for pulling aggro. On her blaster. Even if you could prove a plurality of support, popularity is still not a good measure for the balance of a powerset. |
I think its one of the most obvious things in the feel of any controllable character, in any game. If a character feels unresponsive because they're locked into a long animation, it will often get brought up in reviews.
You're right in that the majority of players probably have less understanding of their powers than the average forumite, but I dont think cast time is part of that, because its so visible.
I think he has a valid point, though: many players don't even read patch notes and instead find out what changes have been made by their friends well after the changes have gone live. I have a friend who had a Stone/EM Tanker (he doesn't play anymore) made before the ET nerf. He came back one reactivation weekend, brought the Tanker along on a TF, and a few missions in he told me, "Something feels different about this character, but I don't know what it is." I of course informed him about the ET nerf, which got an "Oh" out of him.
Point is, most players will notice something is different, they just won't notice what until someone tells them.
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My point, blithely missed, is that the expressions and opinions of people who do not know these things are not particularly useful contributions to a discussion.| You met someone who didn't know what they were talking about, that doesn't equate to the majority of players not noticing long cast times. |
Nor is seeking the support of a silent and unsupporting majority.
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I guess you should count me in that minority of players that seems all too common around here. There is a HUGE difference in the "feel" and "effect" of long animations in the game.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
About as popular as it is.
The majority of players don't notice long cast times, or care. I listened to someone talking about her rationale for keeping Total Focus was because it was great for pulling aggro. On her blaster. Even if you could prove a plurality of support, popularity is still not a good measure for the balance of a powerset. |
Especially in a team environment, where ALOT can happen in a 3 second animation, not to mention if you happen to do 2 in a row.
My most common experience with this is Short Circuit. I cannot even begin to tell you how often I jump into the "middle" of a spawn on a team with the intention of "sapping" only to have the whole spawn "shift" away from my "spot" and miss a third or more of a spawn.
I used to have Thunderstrike in my build, and after dying quite a few times "during" the animation of that attack, which was activated right after my first "short circuit", I respecced out of that power faster than you can say "Wakie please".
I am sure numerically, you can prove that the damage-to-activation is just fine, but having quicker animating attacks allows for more intangible "reactive" actions, like I think I will run back here and put some distance from this mob, or, I think I need to switch targets right now and throw a "cage" on that mob that just took a big chunk of me, or how about using a Heal Inspiration when you suddenly drop into the red. None of these reactive actions are "easier" when you are locked in a 3-second animation.
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I'm not entirely sure how you're defining each of these qualitative terms, but, the way I'm reading this, you're saying that MA is worse at AoE damage than Dark Melee, which is pretty much untrue in my experience. Shadow Maul often gets undersold, but there's a reason for that: it takes a really long time to animate. Even if you're good with it and can regularly hit 5 targets without much effort, the long animation is going to throttle your ability to perform well because it's going to take longer to animate the power than it is to recharge it. Dragon's Tail isn't awesome, but it beats out Shadow Maul quite easily simply because it's a reasonably fast, reasonably powerful, normal strength AoE, something that Dark Melee lacks.|
Originally Posted by macskull
* Dark Melee: awesome single target, good AoE (requires a bit of positioning mojo to leverage Shadow Maul well but the ability is there nonetheless).
* Martial Arts: decent single target, mediocre AoE. (MA isn't a particularly great set for PvE either, so I'm not sure about this one.) |
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| * Elec Melee: mediocre single target, excellent AoE. Ability to wipe out large numbers of enemies fast makes up for the lack of power in taking down single hard targets, as the majority of reward in a given spawn is the minions and lieutenants, not the bosses. |
One of the things you're missing from your evaluations of the attack sets is something that is, in my opinion, just as important as ST and AoE damage individually: utility.
Dark Melee's biggest advantage isn't tweaked out ST damage (though it is capable of respectable ST damage). It's greatest advantage is the huge mounds of utility that the set provides beyond what any other set does: a self heal and an endurance tool. The tohit debuffing is also incredibly useful, though it's not really an untoward benefit.
Along the same lines, BS and Kat aren't chosen as often by min/maxers because they put out excellent damage numbers (they actually put out moderate numbers in comparison to the other sets). The biggest reason is Parry/Divine Avalanche, which essentially means that, no matter your defense set, you're getting softcapped to melee/lethal.
On this same line, Energy Melee has some decent utility that often gets ignored. With EM, it's relatively easy to stun some or all of your opponents rather often, and, though it's not nearly as useful against the single hard targets that EM is supposed to excel at, it's a great form of reasonably reliable mitigation when taking on groups.
Now, this isn't to say that I don't think EM doesn't need some AoE damage buffing love or that the animations shouldn't be sped up a bit (while reducing damage somewhat to prevent horribly huge DPAs) to allow the set to compete a bit more where damage is concerned. Whirling Hands could use some love, and the set could probably use a conversion that allows an ST attack to hit a couple other targets (Energy Transfer gets the Chain Induction treatment maybe?), but it doesn't need some vast overhaul to allow it to perform decently like some suggest. Keep in mind that the Cottage Rule would have to apply to any suggested changes (no turning a melee into a PbAoE or turning Stun into something completely different).
In my opinion, Energy Melee isn't a bad set. It still performs decently. It just doesn't perform on the same level that people were used to it performing before ET got the much needed nerf (I don't care what you say, when the attack has a base DPA nearly 5 times higher than it's nearest competitors, the power needs a nerf), but that doesn't necessarily make it a defunct set. Honestly, people would probably be behaving the same way if Rage or Granite Armor got fixed (if you don't think those powers need to be fixed, compare them to similar powers and consider how much stronger they are than anything else they compete with).
This is the problem with heuristic set balancing: rather than attempting to balance the set out by making it perform well across all of the powers the Cryptic devs (and I say that it's the Cryptic devs because Castle and Synapse have made and fixed sets that perform much better across the full spectrum of their powers rather than having a bulk of their performance drawn from 2-3 powers) attempting to balance out bad powers (Whirling Hands, Jab, Punch, pretty much all of the Stone Armor +def or +res powers aside from Granite) by making other powers completely overpowered (Energy Transfer, KO Blow, Rage, Granite Armor). I'd be substantially happier with all 3 of those sets if they each got a substantial overhaul that addressed the fundamental flaws in both their performance and their design (EM's low AoE performance without sufficient counterbalancing advantages, SS's crippling reliance on the sheer overpoweredness of Rage, and Stone Armor's crippling reliance on a perma God-mode).
I would like to see whirling hands be buffed to 12-15ft radius and perhaps a higher target cap.
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I'd actually say the sheep are the people who claim EM does great ST damage, based on either looking at a few spreadsheets in a vacuum that don't take into consideration the effect of overkill damage, don't consider procs (the longest animation you have, the less you get from a proc), ET's -health, and so on, or their casual experience ingame ("oh it does good damage because there's high numbers when I hit ET" - NO ! Just, no)| No one wants to use it cause people are sheep not cause its worse off at ST dmg than all the other sets. |
If you're looking to do ST damage, there's other options that will do more DPS while also not directly harming your survivability.
IMO, the only sensible options for performance with EM are DA (stacking stuns with OG, turning TF into a guaranted boss hit, along with DR making ET's -health much less of an issue) and WP (high regen taking care of ET -hp, regen based build gets a lot out of stuns as well). Anything else, and you're fooling yourself if you think there isn't a better choice.
The problem with EM is not that it's not good at anything. It's just that its clear and overwhelming superiority in ST melee control has, shall we say, somewhat limited applicability in the game as it exists now. If there existed a class of enemy that was a) dangerous enough that meleers had a reason to fight not more than one at a time and to want it locked down (as opposed to simply soaking damage using their mitigation set) and b) could be mezzed permanently with reasonable levels of stacked mez, then EM would have a niche all to itself. Unfortunately, the only thing I can think of that comes close to fitting that description is an EB that isn't a downgraded AV, and those are somewhat thin on the ground (and for sufficient levels of IO mitigation, do not even meet criterion a).
The reward system as it exists now favors high passive multitarget survivability and high AoE DPS. EM's ST control is redundant with sufficient passive mitigation, ineffective against multiple targets, and ineffective against hard targets, and its AoE DPS is very low. It's a good set for a game that doesn't exist.
Then again, everything that I just said was true before ET was changed, but it didn't get mentioned nearly as much because omgET.
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Also, EM isn't the 'single target king' anymore - the buffs to dark melee bring it aweful close, if not equal, to EM's single target level and fire melee is not bad either. Dark melee offers a lot more secondary effects and control plus an awesome heal and fire melee offers very nice AE - so even if EM has a slight advantage in pure single target DPS, both of those sets give you a lot more and give up very little to get it.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The problem with EM is not that it's not good at anything. It's just that its clear and overwhelming superiority in ST melee control has, shall we say, somewhat limited applicability in the game as it exists now. If there existed a class of enemy that was a) dangerous enough that meleers had a reason to fight not more than one at a time and to want it locked down (as opposed to simply soaking damage using their mitigation set) and b) could be mezzed permanently with reasonable levels of stacked mez, then EM would have a niche all to itself. Unfortunately, the only thing I can think of that comes close to fitting that description is an EB that isn't a downgraded AV, and those are somewhat thin on the ground (and for sufficient levels of IO mitigation, do not even meet criterion a).
The reward system as it exists now favors high passive multitarget survivability and high AoE DPS. EM's ST control is redundant with sufficient passive mitigation, ineffective against multiple targets, and ineffective against hard targets, and its AoE DPS is very low. It's a good set for a game that doesn't exist. Then again, everything that I just said was true before ET was changed, but it didn't get mentioned nearly as much because omgET. |
Ok - to tie this up, I took a look back at BillZ's "The results are in..." thread in the scrapper forum (stickied at the top for those who want to check themselves) and EM doesn't even lead the pack any more. From his take 2 thread, where he pulled gloom out of the brute attack chains and used only L50 IO's with no hasten:
Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1
Brute Energy 157.5 3.3
Scrap Energy 151 3.3
Scrap Claws 149.6 2.9
Brute Claws 149.5 2.9
Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1
Brute Warmace 148 3.7
Brute Dark 143.7 3.1
Brute Martial Arts 143.7 3.6
Scrap Strength 142.1 2.9
Scrap Dark 141.6 3.1
And from the other thread, using more insane values of recharge and including gloom in brute attack chains:
Brute Dark w/ 10 222.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 10 222 4 EPS
Brute Stone 218 5.2 EPS
Brute Fiery 213.2 3.83 EPS
Brute Strength 212.6 4.59 EPS
Brute Energy 207.4 3.84 EPS
Brute Warmace 203.4 4.71 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 3 201.7 4.53 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 1 194.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Fiery 190.3 3.48 EPS
Brute Battleaxe 187.2 4.34 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 3 181 4 EPS
Scrap Dual Blades 169.7 4.42 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 1 169.3 4 EPS
Brute Electric 169 4.69 EPS
Brute Dual Blades 168.3 4.42 EPS
Scrap Katana 168.3 4.16 EPS
Scrap Martial Arts 165.4 4.24 EPS
Scrap Broadsword 154.8 3.85 EPS
Scrap Claws 154.2 3.46 EPS
Scrap Spines 135.9 4.22 EPS
So, energy melee on a brute is beaten out by fire in the most simple case and by a ton of other things in the huge recharge case. In the base case, EM for brutes/scrappers only pulls ahead of claws, scrapper fire and warmace by 1-2 DPS, not a lot really.
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The "simple case" is what the devs balance the game around. Just compare how Dual Pistols performs in SO grade compared to how it performs in IO grade. It's laughable, honestly.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
So, energy melee on a brute is beaten out by fire in the most simple case and by a ton of other things in the huge recharge case. In the base case, EM for brutes/scrappers only pulls ahead of claws, scrapper fire and warmace by 1-2 DPS, not a lot really.
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Also, you're forgetting that the only thing that beats Energy Melee out on ST damage is the set that has absolutely no mitigation: the secondary effect on Fire Melee is moar damage, so it stands to reason that Fire Melee should be at the head of the pack. Where it stands, from the perspective of balance, when you factor in mitigation provided, EM is actually in a perfectly reasonably spot.
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My thoughts on Energy Melee are that it is awesome and it should be proliferated to Scrappers as soon as possible. <3
While it is relatively unpopular these days, it has been my favorite melee set since I first started playing with it on a Brute when CoV launched.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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Yes, but fire it has great AE. So its the single target king AND has good AE. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
The "simple case" is what the devs balance the game around. Just compare how Dual Pistols performs in SO grade compared to how it performs in IO grade. It's laughable, honestly.
Also, you're forgetting that the only thing that beats Energy Melee out on ST damage is the set that has absolutely no mitigation: the secondary effect on Fire Melee is moar damage, so it stands to reason that Fire Melee should be at the head of the pack. Where it stands, from the perspective of balance, when you factor in mitigation provided, EM is actually in a perfectly reasonably spot. |
However, I agree that this is exactly the point that prevents folks from agreeing on how good/bad EM happens to be - I think WH could use a buff and you think the set is fine currently. I can live with that. Even now, a buff to WH would not get me to play EM on brute's again - what I dislike about it on brutes is the fact that the 2 big hitters are net fury losses since they take so long to activate. However, if ported to scrappers I will probably play it as is, since scrappers don't have to worry about fury.
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Ok, iv been wanting to make a /EM Tanker fro a long time now, but I cant force my self to roll one and keep playing it..The set seems cool in concept and all, but theres a huge issue I cant get past when it comes to this set.
First of all, with the advant of going and upping the mob numbers in missions.This set has fallen behind every single Melee Set Tankers and Brutes can choose.
I for starters dont fight anything less the a 8 man mob w/bosses on every one of my Tankers.I use Axe, Elec Melee, Fire Melee, Ice Melee, and even Dark melee.All of these sets seem to beat out Energy Melee in AoE and in activation times of powers.
I would love to continue playing a Energy Melee Tanker, but whats the point when its unfortunatly the worste set in the bunch now?For ST damage, its great.I dont want to have to be forced to play either a FA/EM or SD/EM Tanker to even half way enjoy the set.
I propose a few changes to Energy Melee that I dont think are to game breaking or anything close to it.
Heres my Opinion on its rebuild.
1) Energy Punch should be switched to teir 1 and Barrage to teir 2.
2) Energy Transfers activation time doesnt need to be fixed, however the amount of targets it hits does.Give it the same Cone Radius like that of Jaccob's Ladder.Then it would be a worth while power to take due tio having a chance to hit a max of 2 or 3 Targets.
3) Take out Stun and replace it with something else.I dont think anyone takes that power anyhow.
4) Focus should be treated as a small radius AoE, maybe a bit like Thunder Strike or at the very least let it travel a short ways forward and hit a enermy or 2 standing behind the one taking the hit.Like Cleave.
To me it would make more sense that Energy Melee be a bit more AoE Friendly.Even if the top damaging powers only hit 2-5 things, it would make a huge diffrence, and youd acctually see someone using the set now days instead of complainging about it.
This is just how I can see how it can be fixed, and is nothing more then a opinion that I hope gets atleast looked at by the Dev's.
I want to play Energy Melee for a Tanker, but if every other set beats it out for AoE I dont see a point.I perfer to have decent, to massive AoE for my Melee Builds.
At this point I belive that Energy Melee is more for the Scrapper heap for powers then it is for a Brute or a Tanker at this point.The only reason why I say that is alot of Scrapper players iv been around go with ST builds to keep most the Agro off them for higher survivability.I like AoE on a Tanker.