Personally, if I had to choose between capping only melee or capping S/L, I would definitely go for S/L. Sure, there are melee attacks that aren't Smashing or Lethal damage. But there are also a lot of ranged attacks that are mostly Lethal damage. So capping S/L will protect me against a lot of melee attacks, AND a lot of ranged attacks. Some some AoE to boot. So, for me, that's the much better choice.
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If you're using Divine Avalanche, it will cap you to Melee by itself. Also Lethal, so building towards both Smashing/Lethal (as they're bonuses usually come together) would still be only half as effective.
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Not to mention that ALOT of those "Lethal" attacks (Ranged and Melee), have a side effect of lowering ALL your defenses. Its hard to appreciate the difference until you have experienced it, but I agree Smash/Lethal > Melee
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Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
Personally, if I had to choose between capping only melee or capping S/L, I would definitely go for S/L. Sure, there are melee attacks that aren't Smashing or Lethal damage. But there are also a lot of ranged attacks that are mostly Lethal damage. So capping S/L will protect me against a lot of melee attacks, AND a lot of ranged attacks. Some some AoE to boot. So, for me, that's the much better choice.
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
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I agree with the above posters, s/l > melee.
One other thing to consider though, melee defense bonuses are generally easier to get a hold of. A lot of the significant s/l bonuses are in low level sets (Kinetic Combat, etc) or in weird sets like slows. This isn't a big deal because all melee bonuses give you a little s/l defense, just something to consider when building.
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Well, I'm looking a friend's build, and without DA, the S/L won't be softcapping, FYI.
I would also say S/L > Melee, but you will probably have an easier time capping melee with DA. It's also worth noting that, as a Scrapper, you will typically be *in* melee more often, so it has a degree more importance than if you were playing, say, a defender or blaster.
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Care to show us that build so maybe we can help? I didn't play with a Kat/Reg build before, but I don't imagine it to be impossible to softcap.
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Originally Posted by SpiderTeo_OC
Well, I'm looking a friend's build, and without DA, the S/L won't be softcapping, FYI.
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@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
The thing is, DA doesn't offer any Smashing defense. So if you're capping S/L, you don't need to be using DA at all, and it's kind of defeating the purpose of being Katana in the first place. That's my take on it, anyway.
DA offer some def to smash/lethal, not much but a bit => Cloak of Darkness
And for the thread i would go with S/L def aswell.
In late game i don't know a big melee attack that don't have a componant of Smashing or lethal in it.
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One simple answer: |
Originally Posted by SpiderTeo_OC
Any reasons why a Kat/Regen would build to get S/L defense over melee defense?
I understand there are some ranged and AoE attacks that also contain S/L elements, but it seems that it's easier to get melee defense over S/L defenses. Any thoughts? |
Every single machine gun fired at you in the game is flagged as ranged/lethal. You could have 1000% melee defense and it wouldn't mean squat. Gunfire is ALWAYS ranged, even if they're standing right next to you at the time.
Every machine gun attack also debuffs your defense, which regen has ZERO resistance to. Get shot by enough guys and ALL your defense is gone.
The major problem Kat/Regen runs into is it is difficult to build for S/L defense without severely gimping the stuff regen should be slotting for, namely recharge.
The smashing defense isn't especially important, and you get lethal defense from Divine Avalanche, so if you're really concerned about it, slot some Kinetic Combats in something and the melee slotting you're doing anyway should get you a decent amount of lethal defense as well. If you get enough lethal defense built up you should be able to softcap lethal and melee with DA.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Divine Avalanche. Not Dark Armor.
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Originally Posted by Nemeros
DA offer some def to smash/lethal, not much but a bit => Cloak of Darkness
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
My problem with going for typed defense (and you end up doing it a lot if you have WP and Invuln scrappers) is that the sets that give you them have virtually no other bonuses.
If, for example, I am building out melee and ranged, I am going to be looking at Obliteration, Touch of Death, Mako's, and Red Fortune as my main stays. Just slotting out for defense using these sets gives *lots* of extra damage, some decent recharge, procs in my attacks, and extra health. The only weakness with this strategy is if I need a *lot* of recharge for a certain chain it's tough to live with Mako's and ToD giving only ~60 base.
When I swap and start building out SL, FC, and EN the sets I use are Kinetic Combat (4 piece), Eradication, Cleaving Blow, and (with a defense set) lots of Aegis for F/C. Not only do these sets provide less overall enhancement because they are lower level, but additional set bonuses are almost non-existent. Once I slot 4 Kinetic Combat I am also force to slot two additional multi-IOs to round out the basic set bonuses.
Right now I have a MA/SR and a MA/WP that I am slotting. Both fit the theme for my main so I am deciding which to keep theme wise and which to retool into a different package.
My MA/WP is slotted to hit around 35 S/L, 40 F/C, 35 E/N defense. To do that, however, I will have to use my attacks to build S/L and I am giving up a lot of other set bonuses. Granted the extra health, S/L resists, and large regeneration is a big boon for that character but I lose a lot of offensive power slotting this way.
Moonlighter
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Let's see, granted, my survivability spreadsheet isn't proof, but let's see what it has to say on the subject. Plugging into some version of the Umbral-created ValBlademaster-played build, and assuming no other defense except the absolute minimum of 30% melee/lethal from Divine Avalanche and the defense we're trading off:
45% melee + 30% lethal = 1379 survivabilityI'll admit that I'm surprised. I expected a bigger difference, and for it to be in the other direction.
30% melee + 45% smashing/lethal = 1528 survivability
Guess I have to go with smashing/lethal then, assuming there are no other trade offs. I'm betting there are a LOT of other trade offs, though, since 45% melee is easy, and 45% smashing is at best extremely difficult.
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Of course, if you manage to get def enhancement into DA, then it can pump out ~46.8% melee/lethal all by itself when double stacked. Not all builds can accomplish that, but something else to keep in mind.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Let's see, granted, my survivability spreadsheet isn't proof, but let's see what it has to say on the subject. Plugging into some version of the Umbral-created ValBlademaster-played build, and assuming no other defense except the absolute minimum of 30% melee/lethal from Divine Avalanche and the defense we're trading off:
45% melee + 30% lethal = 1379 survivabilityI'll admit that I'm surprised. I expected a bigger difference, and for it to be in the other direction. Guess I have to go with smashing/lethal then, assuming there are no other trade offs. I'm betting there are a LOT of other trade offs, though, since 45% melee is easy, and 45% smashing is at best extremely difficult. |
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For the most part I agree with you regarding the sets, but one other thing to consider is that in a "tight" build, going "typed" means that you would need 5 slots on your attacks (assuming 4 KinCombats or SmHaymkr plus 1 other IO to boost ACC/DMG/etc) rather than 6 slots you'd need for Touch of Death or Mako's. Additionally, for F/C/E/N you need considerably fewer than 6 slots to get bonuses, whereas for Ranged/AoE you will most often need 5-6 slots. Those extra slots can mean better bonuses on other powers that would otherwise have 3-4 slots. |
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
My problem with going for typed defense (and you end up doing it a lot if you have WP and Invuln scrappers) is that the sets that give you them have virtually no other bonuses.
If, for example, I am building out melee and ranged, I am going to be looking at Obliteration, Touch of Death, Mako's, and Red Fortune as my main stays. Just slotting out for defense using these sets gives *lots* of extra damage, some decent recharge, procs in my attacks, and extra health. The only weakness with this strategy is if I need a *lot* of recharge for a certain chain it's tough to live with Mako's and ToD giving only ~60 base. When I swap and start building out SL, FC, and EN the sets I use are Kinetic Combat (4 piece), Eradication, Cleaving Blow, and (with a defense set) lots of Aegis for F/C. Not only do these sets provide less overall enhancement because they are lower level, but additional set bonuses are almost non-existent. Once I slot 4 Kinetic Combat I am also force to slot two additional multi-IOs to round out the basic set bonuses. Right now I have a MA/SR and a MA/WP that I am slotting. Both fit the theme for my main so I am deciding which to keep theme wise and which to retool into a different package. My MA/WP is slotted to hit around 35 S/L, 40 F/C, 35 E/N defense. To do that, however, I will have to use my attacks to build S/L and I am giving up a lot of other set bonuses. Granted the extra health, S/L resists, and large regeneration is a big boon for that character but I lose a lot of offensive power slotting this way. |
My basic rule is to look at the generic SO slotting and see what sets fall in place real well and what "trends" appear. Some are very easy to see. "Willpower" should be built as "typed", no question. Shields and Reflexes as "positional", Duh !
But other sets are harder to see until you start looking at the whole picture. "Dark Armor" can go either way, but if you play Dark Melee too, your going to want those nice ACC bonuses in the 6-piece sets, so "Positional" has an additional reason to push for it.And of Course, if you are trying to "softcap" there is no doubt "positional" is going to be cheaper in most cases.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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This. If you're going kat, da can cap you for melee and lethal. Sure, you'll have a hole vs. ranged smashing, but how many attacks are ranged smashing? If you build towards leth/smashing, you're basically spending all that time and resources to cap against ranged smashing dmg, and it definitely wouldn't be easy or cheap to do.
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Originally Posted by Zandock
The thing is, DA doesn't offer any Smashing defense. So if you're capping S/L, you don't need to be using DA at all, and it's kind of defeating the purpose of being Katana in the first place. That's my take on it, anyway.
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Nice discussion...thanks all for contributing. Gave me some good ideas/plans!
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For Dark Armor paired with either Katana or Broadsword, go with positional. For pretty much any other primary typed will serve you better. |
Originally Posted by Biospark
My basic rule is to look at the generic SO slotting and see what sets fall in place real well and what "trends" appear. Some are very easy to see. "Willpower" should be built as "typed", no question. Shields and Reflexes as "positional", Duh !
But other sets are harder to see until you start looking at the whole picture. "Dark Armor" can go either way, but if you play Dark Melee too, your going to want those nice ACC bonuses in the 6-piece sets, so "Positional" has an additional reason to push for it.And of Course, if you are trying to "softcap" there is no doubt "positional" is going to be cheaper in most cases. |
Invuln, Fire, and Electric Armor should usually go with typed as well (Invuln always should), Fire and ElA it depends on your primary much like Dark Armor.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Sure, you'll have a hole vs. ranged smashing, but how many attacks are ranged smashing?
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The one you will see most often is probably Hurl, Warwolves have it and whole spawns will chuck them at you at once.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yes and no.|
Originally Posted by Zandock
The thing is, DA doesn't offer any Smashing defense. So if you're capping S/L, you don't need to be using DA at all, and it's kind of defeating the purpose of being Katana in the first place. That's my take on it, anyway.
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You're forgetting defense debuffs.
DA can act as a (forgive the pun) buffer against incoming defense debuffs.
Oh no! Someone debuffed your defense by 30%! AUUGH! Now it's only 50% defense! OHNOEZ!
If you're among enemies who are debuff-light or don't debuff, simply go for a maximum-damage chain.
If you're among heavy-debuffing enemies, use DA to keep you unhittable in a maximum-damage-with-DA chain.
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Any reasons why a Kat/Regen would build to get S/L defense over melee defense?
I understand there are some ranged and AoE attacks that also contain S/L elements, but it seems that it's easier to get melee defense over S/L defenses. Any thoughts?