How is Resistance without Defense?


bAss_ackwards

 

Posted

All,

TL/DR; -- Can a Resistance set perform well enough without using inventions to push up its defenses?

LONG RAMBLING POST:

I never really played many Scrappers before it became possible to soft cap your defenses. I had an old launch-day DM/SR, but that was about it. Since inventions, I've played a lot of soft-capped Super Reflexes scrappers. I have tried Shields as well. Good stuff. I prefer to avoid being hit.

Now I'm interested in trying a pure resist set. However, I'm wondering how they hold up compared to defense sets, ESPECIALLY if I DO NOT go around collecting a bunch of defense from inventions. After a half dozen SR and SD characters, I'm getting a little burned out on crafting everything with defense bonuses as a priority. Sick of it, actually.

Can a Resistance set perform well enough without using inventions to push up its defenses?

I'm kinda wanting a dual elemental setup. I consider Dark to be an element. What combo would you advise? I am a sucker for endurance recovery. I also tend to dislike element matches. That is why my preferences from most to least would be:

Dark/Electric
Fire/Electric
Dark/Fire
Electric/Fire
Fire/Fire
Electric/Dark

Fire/Fire is a theme match, so I would normally be inclined to hate it, but the damage seems disgustingly good, so it is on the list. Electric/Dark has no recovery available at all, so it wouldn't make the list, except that I would like to consider /Dark. Electric/Dark is the most palatable of the elemental/Dark combos for my tastes.

Anyway, again, can a Resistance set perform well enough without using inventions to push up its defenses? Which combo would you recommend and why?

Thanks,

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Resistances work differently from Defenses.

A lot of the soft-cappers don't get this. They try to play each character exactly the same, without ever changing tactics or strategies. So your opening line is a bit of an assumption:

Quote:
TL/DR; -- Can a Resistance set perform well enough without using inventions to push up its defenses?
You'll need to define what perform well enough means. If you mean in terms of mob survivability, no. You won't be able to sit in a mob and hack away at enemies.

If you mean in terms of kill first, live later, then yes. All of the elemental sets have damage aura's, and those auras can rack up on damage counts.

Now, each elemental set has it's own advantages / disadvantages.

Electrical Armor has the best resists, great endurance management, and a regeneration buff that if you can get close to perma, will be putting you alongside willpower's and regen's for sheer annoyance.

Fire Armor has not so great resists and unless you take combat jumping and acrocatics, or take combat jumping and slot multiple knockback protection IO's, a tendency to be flat on their back. That being said, Fire's damage aura is more powerful, ticking off 13 points of damage at level 50 versus 12 points on Electric and Dark. Okay, it's not that much more powerful. Anyways, Fire also gets a quick self-heal, endurance recovery, and a self-rez micro-nuke. Oh, and Burn. Really great for sending enemies at the front of a map running in fear to the back of the map.

Dark's advantages are it's stealth and status effects. Most of the dark set is about giving your scrapper time to output some damage, then get away from the fight. Dark's tend to focus more on getting into a middle of a mob and cranking the damage, or hit and run tactics.

***

For a scrapper, the two best armors really are Dark and Electric. Electric actually shows how unbalanced Fire Armor is, and there's a vocal minority within the player base that's upset that Fire Armor still hasn't been looked at since it was knocked out of balance with the I5 ED changes.

***

On the attacks. Well, fire melee on scrappers is great for single target damage. There have been players with Fire / Shield scrappers that claim to drop AV's and Giant monsters on a regular basis.

Electric attack is a bit better on the AOE front, and includes a couple of mezzes... which can really help out survivability.

Dark Melee is a bit light on the directed damage side at low levels. However, the set does get a self-heal, which helps survivability immensely, and a self-endurance recovery. It also gets soul drain... which in mob environments turns light directed damage into where did everybody go?

So, the attacks really depend on what you want to do.

***

If you do a lot of soloing or challenges, Fire Melee / Electric Armor is a hard combination to overlook.

If you are going for sheer damage and are backed with a controller that can keep mobs from running in fear, Dark Melee / Fire Armor is hard to overlook. A controlled mob hit with a Soul-Drained Burn is as good as dead.

If you like to team a lot and run lots of task forces, Dark Melee / Electric Armor isn't as hard-hitting out front, but is better equipped for a wider range of potential battle situations.


 

Posted

Pure resist sets without defense added to them will not hold up as well as pure defense sets without resistance added to them. A pure defense Scrapper at the soft cap has 90% damage mitigation. A pure resistance Scrapper at the resistance cap has 75% damage mitigation. The pure resistance Scrapper takes 2.5 times as much damage. Also, while it's easy for some Scrappers to hit the defensive soft cap, it's impossible to hit the resistance soft cap (solo) to more than a couple of types, depending on your secondary.

So for me, no, a Resistance set won't perform well enough without using inventions to push up its defenses. Not even close. But "perform well enough" is subjective. You'd still have way more survivability than most Blasters. Leveling shouldn't be a problem. You shouldn't have a problem on teams. You could handle most things solo if you don't crank up the difficulty level very far. If that's performing well enough, then it will perform well enough.

I think the key to having fun with it would be your mind set and tactics. Think of and play something like a Fire/Fire Scrapper more as a really-tough, low damage Blapper with mez protection. Thought of that way, it would probably be pretty satisfying. I sure miss mez protection when I play my Blasters. Poof! Problem solved! Just don't think of it as a pseudo-Tank. You're not a Tank. Don't try to play like one.

Totally guessing, but maybe Dark/Fire or Dark/Electric would be good for you. Either way, you have two heals and two endurance recovery powers. So perhaps as solid as you can be with pure resistance, and hopefully no endurance trouble.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

There is a reason they all have self rez (;


 

Posted

I appreciate all of the responses. I think I'll have to make a new alt or two. I'm particularly pleased because both of the detailed responses (je_saist, Werner) pointed to my top three favorite combos. That never happens. I usually end up having an emotional attachment to what I later discover is the worst option.

Thanks,

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Just for giggles I'm gonna post possible builds of my 3 favorites. That way if there are any glaring issues, I'll listen to advice. Also, I'll have copies here so I can snag them from another location tomorrow.

Thanks,

Lewis


DARK/ELEC:

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DARK/FIRE:
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FIRE/ELEC:
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Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Any particular reason you favor the body mastery on these builds? With the endurance management tools at your disposal with these particular powerset combinations, I would think that you may get more leverage out of say the blaze mastery especially on dark/elec or dark/fire. I mean with 2 endurance drain toggles who really needs conserve power and physical perfection right? I can understand if its hard to fit your concept though.


 

Posted

There are 3 reasons why I'm going for Body Mastery.

1) I'm a nut for recovery, overkill or not. I want Physical Perfection.

2) I'm a concept player to a degree. I personally dont like Scrappers that shoot ranged attacks out of their bodies. It is ok to have an aura of energy and even an extended aura of energy such as a fire sword. I can even live with a short range fire breath that is not so much a blast as it is just a haphazard escape of energy near your body. Same for something like combustion. But throwing ranged energy simply isn't what I want, so Fire Blast and Fireball are right out. Throwing a ranged immobilize or a ranged hold is off the table as well. It isn't thematic to me.

3) None of the powers prior to level 41 are negotiable. I want Stamina. Super Speed is my favorite power in the game. I want all the iconic powers from the primary and the secondary when possible. If anything, I'd like more of them (such as Touch of Fear). If I'm playing a set, I want everything, except for some powers that push my buttons in a bad way (such as crash powers or rez powers). Also, I would never skip Tough on a resist set. So, that leaves me with, AT MOST, 2 power pics from an epic, at level 47 and 49. Even if the epic fire power were Combustion, or better (maybe a point blank Fireball) ... even though I could view it as an energy emission power and not a blast, I still wouldn't have room for it as I'd need 3 slots. I've only got 2.

There you have it.

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Fair enough


 

Posted

Without meaning to portray defense and resistance sets as equals in the age of IO set bonuses, I submit that Werner's formula (90% mitigation cap for defense vs 75% mitigation cap for resistance = resist sets take 2.5 times more damage) is not the entire story.

Namely, the heals.

Most of the resistance sets have a heal of some kind which can go quite a way toward redressing that imbalance in incoming damage.

I too decided to try and build a resistance-based toon with negligible defense. I used my Spines/Dark Scrapper. Dark has a terrific heal; all you really need your resistances to do is buy time for Dark Regen to recharge.

So ultimately I IO-ed him out for endurance, +recovery, and some +damage and +recharge.

End result is very hard to kill IF and I must repeat IF I am alert with the heal button and good at estimating rates of incoming damage. If I'm lazy or scrapperlocked or ecnoutering lots of weird custom stuff in Architect, it's still pretty easy to take damage faster than the heal fixes, and faceplant.

As long as I'm on my game, he's a strong Scrapper.


If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

Posted

I enjoyed every minute of my MA/Fire which I built with perma-hasten in mind. 'In mind', because I need 10 purples and a LotG to get there and I simply don't play my 50's, so that'll never happen. That said, he sits at 55% global recharge and pumps out damage with Focus Chi and Fiery Embrace coming up quickly and Blazing Aura just chewing up enemies.

And Dark/Fire is just a ludicrously entertaining combo. Build ups, heals, and end recovery tools out the wazoo.

A note on /Fire: I found it wasn't effective to build towards utilizing burn. If you solo a lot, leave it out unless you're using it for your immob protection. Teamed with a troller though, that's a pile of damage.


They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!

@Starflier

 

Posted

Yeah I left Burn in my build simply because I do team with a lot of controllers.

Thanks all!

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

If you want to play a resist set I'd recommend a brute. Not only because they are tougher and cap at 90%, but because you can pair it up with a superior mitigation primary compared to what scrappers can access.

Case in point, I'm currently leveling a stone/ela brute. Fault alone is as good as an armor set. The other attacks have as much knock down as any scrapper and Seismic smash is "i win" vs bosses.

Stone is also notoriously endurance unfriendly, which /ela solves. You also access darkest night, which can more or less resolve your desire not to build for defense and still give you those results.

At 36, I can honestly say that without using fault (and tremor to a lesser extent) the toon gets ripped apart solo'ing 0/5/bosses. I don't see it being different for any scrapper. With fault I breeze through most mobs.

edit: if you are wondering about damage vs a scrapper. My paper dps should easily top 250 on the final build. Tremor is a 15ft aoe and fault can take two damage procs (not to mention the FF +rech proc!). So it is very "scrapperesque"


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
If you want to play a resist set I'd recommend a brute. Not only because they are tougher and cap at 90%, but because you can pair it up with a superior mitigation primary compared to what scrappers can access.

Case in point, I'm currently leveling a stone/ela brute. Fault alone is as good as an armor set. The other attacks have as much knock down as any scrapper and Seismic smash is "i win" vs bosses.

Stone is also notoriously endurance unfriendly, which /ela solves. You also access darkest night, which can more or less resolve your desire not to build for defense and still give you those results.

At 36, I can honestly say that without using fault (and tremor to a lesser extent) the toon gets ripped apart solo'ing 0/5/bosses. I don't see it being different for any scrapper. With fault I breeze through most mobs.

edit: if you are wondering about damage vs a scrapper. My paper dps should easily top 250 on the final build. Tremor is a 15ft aoe and fault can take two damage procs (not to mention the FF +rech proc!). So it is very "scrapperesque"
um. right and wrong.

While Brutes cap at 90% resist, they get the same exact base values as Scrappers. That means that when capped into Enhancement Diversification, their resists are not going to get close to cap.

For example, an Invuln brute with all of the Smash / Lethal resist native powers and Tough will only be pushing 67.5% resistance... a far sight short of the cap. A stone brute in granite with tough will only have 73.125 resist, again, short of cap... and the ED capped stone skin will only be touching around 84% resist...

The difference can't exactly be made up in IO's either. The devs are aware of the disparity of resist buffs versus defense buffs in the various IO sets, and comments from the developers indicate most future sets will have resist values.

The solo(ing) advantage to brutes is that they do get a higher native HP cap, around 3200, and a higher base HP amount, around 1500.

Really then, if you are going to make the argument, play a different archtype, when it comes to resists, the argument is for tanks, and not brutes, stalkers, or scrappers.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
If you want to play a resist set I'd recommend a brute.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't enjoy brutes very much. Chasing the fury bar drives me bonkers. Otherwise, I'd consider it.

Thanks!

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
um. right and wrong.

While Brutes cap at 90% resist, they get the same exact base values as Scrappers. That means that when capped into Enhancement Diversification, their resists are not going to get close to cap.

For example, an Invuln brute with all of the Smash / Lethal resist native powers and Tough will only be pushing 67.5% resistance... a far sight short of the cap. A stone brute in granite with tough will only have 73.125 resist, again, short of cap... and the ED capped stone skin will only be touching around 84% resist...

The difference can't exactly be made up in IO's either. The devs are aware of the disparity of resist buffs versus defense buffs in the various IO sets, and comments from the developers indicate most future sets will have resist values.

The solo(ing) advantage to brutes is that they do get a higher native HP cap, around 3200, and a higher base HP amount, around 1500.

Really then, if you are going to make the argument, play a different archtype, when it comes to resists, the argument is for tanks, and not brutes, stalkers, or scrappers.
Actually everything I said was right.

a. He didn't ask about invuln.
b. He certainly didn't ask about stone armor
c He asked almost entirely about Ela and Fire
both of which CAN cap their respective strength on a brute. Both of which are much tougher in teams (and solo) than the scrapper version because of their higher caps, increased hp, and larger self heal.

He also didn't mention a single set with a hp increasing power, so I'm not sure if you are just reading the differences off of the wiki or what, but ya it is probably worth noting that the brute version of ela, fire, or dark will all benefit from frostworks more than the scrappers (accoladed scrapper won't get full use of a controller FW, while a brute has enough of a hp ceiling to benefit from a full defender version and still have room to go).

While I appreciate your position, brutes can and do play very similar to scrappers if you are looking for a stable toon with a ton of damage. Tanks and stalkers--- not so much. So the recommendation of a brute is probably consistent with his desire.

And if you want to enjoy a resistance set and still crank up the difficulty scrapper primaries (other than kat and BS) just don't have the mitigation of a set like Stone or even Superstrength. And having played a high lvl kat/fire the redraw is considerable; if that bothers the user.

My main point is that with GR coming and his desire to play a resistance set it may be worth thinking outside of the limited hero side options. Similar to how shield is generally considered superior on scrappers do to +dam and stronger shield charge, the pure resistance sets are superior on brutes.

Of course that might just be reserved for people that like the idea of ~scrapper damage, with tank survivability while teaming. While being tougher than a scrapper solo. Not everyone does.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon View Post
Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't enjoy brutes very much. Chasing the fury bar drives me bonkers. Otherwise, I'd consider it.

Thanks!

Lewis
Fair enough. I know I felt very similar, but the difficulty slider eliminated that almost entirely. Set to 4 people solo, the fury bar is a non-issue as it will always be high. So no more rushing like a maniac from spawn to spawn just to maintain high damage. Now you just do it because it is more fun

If scrappers are all you are considering I'd probably play a kat/ela or kat/dark. Very survivable, good damage. but ymmv

2nd Edit: one other thing to consider is that if you enjoy burn, why wait for a controller to use it? be the controller. Fault>burn>tremor = everything near you is dead. Actually a MA/fire with dragon's tail can do it pretty well too.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
If scrappers are all you are considering I'd probably play a kat/ela or kat/dark. Very survivable, good damage. but ymmv
I'm only considering scrappers, and only with the "elemental" primaries and secondaries (dark, earth, fire). Also, I've done a Katana/SR and I like her but once was enough for Katana.

Thanks tho!

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon View Post
I'm only considering scrappers, and only with the "elemental" primaries and secondaries (dark, earth, fire). Also, I've done a Katana/SR and I like her but once was enough for Katana.

Thanks tho!

Lewis
For a Scrapper, my vote would be Fire/Dark.
You have resistances to everything in varying degrees ( Fire has many holes, Electric has no Toxic)

You get at least one defense power (Cloak of Shadows) that is as good as Weave with lower cost and Stealth. Electric and Fiery get zero defense powers.
I know you said you wanted to avoid +def IOs, but adding some level of defense will tier your survival quite well. My Willpower/Fire Tanker has 5 sets of Smashing Haymaker slotted in his melee attacks until he can afford Kinetic Combats, and that would get you to 20% defense with cloak of shadows and just 1 or 2 more random sets. I probably spent at most 25 million on these 20 IOs (recipes and salvage included).

The heal is not as good as Fiery Aura's heal, but can heal more. I say not as good because it requires a "to-hit" check and is VERY expensive at the level you can take it.
One of my guild mates is trying out the +endurance proc in Dark Regen to see if he can make the power a nearly "free" heal.

Fire Melee is an excellent AoE set, and you could add in Fireball at the epic level for even more AoE. Plus Death Shroud puts out MORE AoE damage.

Fire Melee lacks any types of control powers, but Dark is "rife" with added control. For your stated goal of avoiding the "softcap craze", Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom seem to fall right in their as an alternate type of mitigation.

Both Dark and Electric have resistance to endurance Drain. Sappers? Why does everyone freak out about those guys ? Hehe

Finally, Dark Armor graphically evokes "smoke" so pairing it with Fiery attacks just sounds like a match made in... well... somewhere....


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon View Post
I'm only considering scrappers, and only with the "elemental" primaries and secondaries (dark, earth, fire). Also, I've done a Katana/SR and I like her but once was enough for Katana.

Thanks tho!

Lewis
I'm concerned you will be disappointed with the survivability then if you are hoping it will be nearly as hardy as one of your def toons. The res sets can perform very well with a bit of room to breath, but without it their heals are quickly overwhelmed.

My new recommendation is elec/fire. Yes it will die A LOT, but have you seen how much damage RoTP does? About the same as a saturated+bu shield charge.

I'm slowly leveling one (mid 20's now). I won't say it is fun, but I think it will eventually be a blast to play.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon View Post
I'm only considering scrappers, and only with the "elemental" primaries and secondaries (dark, earth, fire). Also, I've done a Katana/SR and I like her but once was enough for Katana.

Thanks tho!

Lewis
Have you tried Elemental Claws? Seriously. Have you? Because it worked so freakin' well for me. I love it!

Dark Blades, Frost Blades, or Fire Blades?

Focus and Shockwave can help so much with damage mitigation. At least give it some thought, kay?


Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP

Remember kids, crack is whack!

Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it

 

Posted

Hi i'm n00b.

But you all already know that.

I would just like to throw this tidbit into the stew.

While #s do say a lot, I believe the actions may speak louder than the words or in this case the #s.

I think it would be beneficial to this discussion if certain individuals would run some AE mishs where a variety of variables can be tested in a live setting.

So it would appear AE isn't the total 100% loss some have made it out to be.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
For a Scrapper, my vote would be Fire/Dark.
You have resistances to everything in varying degrees ( Fire has many holes, Electric has no Toxic)
I appreciate the advice, but that set has absolutely no endurance recovery. That was the first resist combo I tried. I played him to level .... 33 or so, and I just didn't like it. It was soul-crushing. Also, I didn't quite like the concept or the look of the powers together. I dunno. That particular combo isn't for me.

I think I'm going to go with either Dark/Elec, Fire/Elec, or Dark/Fire.

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
My new recommendation is elec/fire. Yes it will die A LOT, but have you seen how much damage RoTP does? About the same as a saturated+bu shield charge.
I thought about Elec/Fire, but I have a level 50 Shield/Elec Tank, a level 50 Elec/SR scrapper, and a level 25 or so Elec/Shield scrapper that I got a bit bored with because I'd done too much Electric melee already. Also, I usually have a hard time fitting in both Combat Jumping AND Consume. I think this combo would be a bit awkward.

Also, I don't take rez powers generally. I don't know that I'd take one even if it could 1-shot a giant monster. It just isn't my thing.

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by milehigh77 View Post
So it would appear AE isn't the total 100% loss some have made it out to be.
I think you posted in the wrong thread by mistake. I think.

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

My suggestion, why not shoot for BOTH defense and resists?

After seeing a huge difference in surviveability on my willpower scrapper by adding in a good bit of defense on top of WP's already decent resists, I went back to an old shelved Fire tank and played with him. I went a bit overboard and capped his defenses to S/L which when added to his resists made him unstoppable. But really, if you can get your defenses to the 30% range (no that hard to do) then you'll be one purple insp away from the cap.

Then a resist based scrapper will really shine, layer in all your secondairies abilities, strong resists, decent defense, self-heal, endurance management tools, you'll have it all.

Or just roll another shielder, thats what I always do, it's up to you.