Dying During the Dual Pistols Nuke
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-11 19:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Guys, just Joust.
Super Speed or Super Jump.
Jump in the middle, jump out, activate HoB the second you jump backwards.
You will animate the attack, and the momentum will carry you far away from any retaliatory attacks. You should then be able to safely pop a blue and run back to the battle, if there's any of it left.
For best results, be as stealthy as possible. This usually makes Super Speed the better candidate.
I don't see jousting a nuke to be very effective like that unless there's a corner...
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You are using game mechanics to decide how people would role-play react to psycho-bullet-spray.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I disagree. The problem with +def is that it increases the likelihood that foes not affected by HoB will miss as well...
<snip> As far as being thematic goes, what's more thematic: killing a bunch of guys with your wicked gun-kata and somehow getting a defense bonus to all the other guys who just walked into the room, or being so completely focused on making the guys you're currently engaging miss on account of your zinging bullets that you've still got to deal with those other guys. AND since they just came into range they are suddenly completely focused right on the lone fighter who just downed their comrades? EDIT - or, pending any damage buffs, MOSTLY downed them, but made them really mad too.  After all, if you were on the receiving end of a Hail of Bullets-like attack, wouldn't you try to duck and cover? And if you did, how accurate do you think your return fire would be? Someone on the outside of that attack, however, would know EXACTLY where to aim to stop the craziness. |
I guess one could walk into a room where someone was spinning death and spitting out bullets and think, "Hey, that guy is 40 feet away. No way any of those bullets can travel more than 25 feet, therefore I can stand tall and take careful aim, no need for me to dodge."
The suggestions I have seen only propose the defense last as long as the animation (although I might make it last 5 seconds (that is just under an extra second) if I thought about going down this path). Popping it off before jumping into a spawn would be useless, since you would be buffing your defense before you are being attacked and that buff would be gone by the time anything did attack.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I do it all the time on my blaster. Not with a nuke granted, I very rarely take nukes. With super speed, at very least, you land very far away from the enemy, so at best they can shoot you once, or not at all. I assume you can do the same with Super Jump, but perhaps my ignorance is showing. True, the environment can get in the way sometimes, but it's better than just standing there and becoming dead, no? |
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I don't see jousting a nuke to be very effective like that unless there's a corner...
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It mitigates a lot of damage at any rate.
*Edit*- Looking at Mids, it seems *most* Nukes take about 3 seconds to animate. is that 1.17 extra seconds really the difference between life and death everyone is making it out to be?
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We all know that henchmen do not hit the main character, regardless of how many of them there are, or whether or not they have any sort of military training. Maybe a main antagonist, with a developed back story and such, but not a henchmen.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You are using game mechanics to decide how people would role-play react to psycho-bullet-spray.
I guess one could walk into a room where someone was spinning death and spitting out bullets and think, "Hey, that guy is 40 feet away. No way any of those bullets can travel more than 25 feet, therefore I can stand tall and take careful aim, no need for me to dodge." |
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On a medium hitpoint archetype, that 1.17 seconds is that much of a difference in melee range taking damage from the entire spawn. |
Originally Posted by Warkupo
*Edit*- Looking at Mids, it seems *most* Nukes take about 3 seconds to animate. is that 1.17 extra seconds really the difference between life and death everyone is making it out to be?
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Also, not everyone has Super Speed or Super Jump. Sprint (the only "travel" power accessible to everyone) isn't going to get you very far from the group either.
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What, flying blasters? Surely you jest. What tactical advantage could you gain from flying as a blaster!?|
Originally Posted by SuperSilver
On a medium hitpoint archetype, that 1.17 seconds is that much of a difference in melee range taking damage from the entire spawn.
Also, not everyone has Super Speed or Super Jump. Sprint (the only "travel" power accessible to everyone) isn't going to get you very far from the group either. |
I never said it was the best solution, but there you go.
Besides that, I simply disagree with you. When is the blaster activating his nuke? Any nuke where you just haphazardly jump into a large group is going to get you killed, never mind Hail of Bullets. I need to know more about the scenario people are using this power in before I can agree to changing it.
I actually really like that suggestion. Hail of Bullets with 4 seconds of 15% to 20% defense to all and 95% DDR would be awesome. Whatever the total length of animation is, that should be the duration of the defense buff.
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a lot of that is getting the timing down, just for a casual player's sake, it's not very practical. Though yes, Super Speed is typically the best method for it's stealth-like capability and Super Jump can work nicely for outside based maps.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
I do it all the time on my blaster. Not with a nuke granted, I very rarely take nukes. With super speed, at very least, you land very far away from the enemy, so at best they can shoot you once, or not at all. I assume you can do the same with Super Jump, but perhaps my ignorance is showing. True, the environment can get in the way sometimes, but it's better than just standing there and becoming dead, no?
It mitigates a lot of damage at any rate. *Edit*- Looking at Mids, it seems *most* Nukes take about 3 seconds to animate. is that 1.17 extra seconds really the difference between life and death everyone is making it out to be? |
the 1.17 seconds between life and death, well that depends on if you ate any inspirations before you did what you did and what the size of the spawn is
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Using Hurdle with Combat Jumping is even better for Jousting, and that has been something that a lot of players have been leveraging for a long time. Mentioned plenty of times in guides and the Blaster section as well. I saw it in action long before leveraging that with a few of my Blasters that weren't wanting to Hover. It's not that difficult of a trick, either.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
a lot of that is getting the timing down, just for a casual player's sake, it's not very practical. Though yes, Super Speed is typically the best method for it's stealth-like capability and Super Jump can work nicely for outside based maps.
the 1.17 seconds between life and death, well that depends on if you ate any inspirations before you did what you did and what the size of the spawn is |
The +def idea was already thrown out there on the Blaster forums, so I guess I'll repeat myself. You can make an argument for a shorter animation, a shorter recharge time for the power, more damage, a reworking of how the damage and KB are applied, etc. But you are NOT going to get +def thrown into Hail of Bullets. It's completely beyond the pale of what any other nuke does.
The earlier things I mentioned are in line with what a nuke can do, and you can easily argue for those. The devs aren't going to make the nuke an "I win" button, though, and they're certainly not going to make the power brainless to use.
You can die using any nuke. Use good tactics, and it won't be a problem. If Hail of Bullets is underperforming, look in the numbers it has now and compare it to other blast sets, and make your case for it. The +def thing is just... yeah. As I said in the Blaster forums, you might be able to get Castle drunk and agree to it, but he'd sober up eventually... and I wouldn't count on it even then.
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Quote:
Other nukes mezz spawns. Other nukes crash a spawns Endurance. Other nukes beat enemy to-hit into the ground. Other nukes put enemies on their backs, far away from you (HoB has a bit of this, or a lot of this on lethal rounds). The mitigation in Blizzard, another DoT nuke is just sick.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
The +def idea was already thrown out there on the Blaster forums, so I guess I'll repeat myself. You can make an argument for a shorter animation, a shorter recharge time for the power, more damage, a reworking of how the damage and KB are applied, etc. But you are NOT going to get +def thrown into Hail of Bullets. It's completely beyond the pale of what any other nuke does.
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Even 30% defense for 5 seconds every 50-60 seconds is not beyond other nukes mitigation potential. A lot of people never thought blasters would get a power like Drain Psyche or Hoarfrost, and yet they did. I would think people would be OK with defenders and corruptors having a mitigation power, so its really only blasters where you could make the argument that they should not have it. Nukes are the exception for blasters, as almost every blaster nuke has mitigation of some sort beyond making dead things. HoB already has some with the KD, but of course it also lacks the making dead things part, so its arguable that it should have more mitigation.
I may not think HoB needs +Defense, but I do not think its a bad idea that the devs would never consider. It seems reasonable, thematic, and useful.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
even though it might not happen...the animation for HoB would insinuate a defense buff...
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Keep in mind that most nukes also do a good portion of their damage up front and can clear out part of a spawn right off the bat, where HoB is a DoT that can have widely varied damage, so you take return fire from EVERYONE you have just aggroed and you can't even be sure you will take any of the spawn out. So its not just the extra 1.17 seconds. |
Originally Posted by Warkupo
I do it all the time on my blaster. Not with a nuke granted, I very rarely take nukes. With super speed, at very least, you land very far away from the enemy, so at best they can shoot you once, or not at all. I assume you can do the same with Super Jump, but perhaps my ignorance is showing. True, the environment can get in the way sometimes, but it's better than just standing there and becoming dead, no?
It mitigates a lot of damage at any rate. *Edit*- Looking at Mids, it seems *most* Nukes take about 3 seconds to animate. is that 1.17 extra seconds really the difference between life and death everyone is making it out to be? |
As for jousting, I am glad the tactic works for some folks, I haven't been good at twitch tactics for the last decade or so (man I hate getting old, not that I was realy a good twitch gamer when I was younger) and I don't think the dev's should balance a power around a questionable tactic that takes advantage of the game engine.
Personally, I think a fear or -to hit effect would be the most thematic approach (foes cowering/ducking for cover), far more than giving you def. The argument for getting def is stretching things quite a bit - arguing that you are "twisting around in place and dodging" could actually apply to several attacks in the pistols set - dual wield for instance looks pretty twisty and dodgy to me, as does bullet rain.
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This doesn't work because of how HoB calculates its damage - unlike other PBAoE powers, it does a tohit check on every tick, so the mob needs to be within the AoE radius the entire time. This is yet another reason HoB is by far the worst nuke in the game - having mobs scatter during the animation not only is risky to you, but it means you're not dealing damage to them.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Guys, just Joust.
Super Speed or Super Jump. Jump in the middle, jump out, activate HoB the second you jump backwards. You will animate the attack, and the momentum will carry you far away from any retaliatory attacks. You should then be able to safely pop a blue and run back to the battle, if there's any of it left. For best results, be as stealthy as possible. This usually makes Super Speed the better candidate. |
(More amusing is the fact that due to how the damage is calculated, there's a small chance the nuke will do NO damage at all.)
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I think how it actually works is there is a To-Hit check when the power activates, and anything in the radius that fails to dodge is affected by two concurrent damage-over-time effects. Each DoT has a 50% chance per pulse to do damage. These pulses are completely random and unaffected by ToHit or Accuracy. Enemies who enter the radius after the power starts will not get hit, and enemies that leave it after it stops still get hit. I think.
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Originally Posted by macskull
This doesn't work because of how HoB calculates its damage - unlike other PBAoE powers, it does a tohit check on every tick, so the mob needs to be within the AoE radius the entire time. This is yet another reason HoB is by far the worst nuke in the game - having mobs scatter during the animation not only is risky to you, but it means you're not dealing damage to them.
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Nope, there've been times where I'm on my Stalker, I'll run up to a DP Blaster in the HoB animation and the power will start making hit checks on me. It might not be exactly as I described it in terms of how it checks for damage, but it's certainly not like other AoEs.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
I cannot speak for PvP, but this is most certainly not how HoB works in PvE.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Nope, there've been times where I'm on my Stalker, I'll run up to a DP Blaster in the HoB animation and the power will start making hit checks on me. It might not be exactly as I described it in terms of how it checks for damage, but it's certainly not like other AoEs.
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When you click the button it makes one to-hit roll on everything in the AoE. If you hit, all 24 ticks are then rolled for, no matter how far away the bad guy runs or gets knocked back. Conversely, if you miss, no ticks are rolled for. I have never seen it start hitting someone who was out of the AoE and then ran in, although I never looked for that behavior and with Hot Feet it might be easy to miss since I expect orange numbers to go above enemies head when they get near me.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Agreed. Nowhere in the in-game data did I find any more than one tohit check. What I did find was "50% chance for 12 tics of xx damage over 3.5 seconds." (x2, for a total of 24 tics)|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I cannot speak for PvP, but this is most certainly not how HoB works in PvE.
When you click the button it makes one to-hit roll on everything in the AoE. If you hit, all 24 ticks are then rolled for, no matter how far away the bad guy runs or gets knocked back. Conversely, if you miss, no ticks are rolled for. I have never seen it start hitting someone who was out of the AoE and then ran in, although I never looked for that behavior and with Hot Feet it might be easy to miss since I expect orange numbers to go above enemies head when they get near me. |
What that meant was confirmed for me when I used HoB in the next Arachnos spawn - I saw the dreaded "Miss!" over the Mu Guardian's head, and I only saw it once. Had further ticks been given tohit rolls I would have expected more "Miss!" messages to float above his head. As it was, no further messages - numbers or otherwise - appeared, and the guardian took no damage.
So the conclusion I have to draw for PVE is that it has one tohit check with tics over time. EDIT - with a 50% chance to do damage on each tic, right?
Now could someone clear something up for me, because I'm really at a loss to understand, and the in-game data was less than helpful. I've heard much ado made about the fact that HoB has a small chance to do no damage at all, and how that's somehow worse than the other Nukes. But if I'm not mistaken don't all Nukes have to roll a tohit check, and thus have a small chance to do no damage? And yes, if anyone can fire off a nuke and miss EVERY SINGLE TARGET in range, it's me. Been there.
So how's HoB any different in that respect? Is it the 50% chance thing? Using my keen powers of pseudo-logic I came up with the conclusion that should the power's tohit succeed, then there's a 50% chance that damage will happen, and from reading through the forums I've gleaned that it's a 50% chance for each of the 12 ticks seperately, but if that's so then shouldn't the in-game text read more like "12 tics of 50% chance of xx damage over 3.5 seconds"?
Thanks in advance. I've got too much other stuff crammed in the old noggin' to sort this out on my own.
EDIT - never mind, ignore everything that's in blue. - I think I've got it figured out. Once you get past the tohit check you STILL have a chance of doing no damage, albeit a small one if the 50% chance of damage fires on every tic. Common sense - and not, I note, in-game power "detailed information," says it would logically be a chance for every tic, if only because I can't imagine having a power requiring a tohit check also having an OVERALL 50% chance to do no damage
Seems to me the in-game text is misleading (at best) and should read (as I wrote above) "12 tics of 50% chance of xx damage over 3.5 seconds," because that's what really threw me for a loop.
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That's kind of my point, though- I should clarify. Those nukes affect the targets somehow. I could see HoB causing fear, or more reliable KD than defense to the caster. That's kind of my point in both of the "give it defense" threads... the idea isn't really based on how blast sets or nukes work. Cutting down its recharge or animation I can get behind. Same for more KD or something like that.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Other nukes mezz spawns. Other nukes crash a spawns Endurance. Other nukes beat enemy to-hit into the ground. Other nukes put enemies on their backs, far away from you (HoB has a bit of this, or a lot of this on lethal rounds). The mitigation in Blizzard, another DoT nuke is just sick.
Even 30% defense for 5 seconds every 50-60 seconds is not beyond other nukes mitigation potential. A lot of people never thought blasters would get a power like Drain Psyche or Hoarfrost, and yet they did. I would think people would be OK with defenders and corruptors having a mitigation power, so its really only blasters where you could make the argument that they should not have it. Nukes are the exception for blasters, as almost every blaster nuke has mitigation of some sort beyond making dead things. HoB already has some with the KD, but of course it also lacks the making dead things part, so its arguable that it should have more mitigation. |
Anyway, recently did a Manticore TF with two Dual Pistols Blasters. They did great with HoB, as long as they didn't fire it off first. If they waited for the Scrappers to go in first, it was game over quickly for the mobs, and not the blasters. So using the power well is another big part of this, as I keep trying to point out.
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Actually...|
Originally Posted by Silas
No, that's avoid, not fear. Fear = mob stands in place cowering, avoid = mob tries to get the hell out of there
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Fear: The critter leaves the area, but doesn't mind coming back
Avoid: The critter leaves the area and tries to stay away
TERRORIZE: The target cowers and can only act at most once every 5 seconds.
Terrorize is the effect placed in the players' "Fear" powers.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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That's what I've said as well.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
That's kind of my point, though- I should clarify. Those nukes affect the targets somehow. I could see HoB causing fear, or more reliable KD than defense to the caster. That's kind of my point in both of the "give it defense" threads... the idea isn't really based on how blast sets or nukes work. Cutting down its recharge or animation I can get behind. Same for more KD or something like that.
Anyway, recently did a Manticore TF with two Dual Pistols Blasters. They did great with HoB, as long as they didn't fire it off first. If they waited for the Scrappers to go in first, it was game over quickly for the mobs, and not the blasters. So using the power well is another big part of this, as I keep trying to point out. |
But I think some want it on solo as well. Though, if your solo anyways.
Now if all on blasters...well, that's a team about mass damage at once anyways, is it not?
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Update on my death status with this power. It happens much less now. What I've started doing is using Hover to get above the group before I launch the attack. It's not a perfect solution but it does prevent most of the two-shot deaths I was getting before.
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Thank Heavens! I was starting to worry about your inability to play Dual Pistols. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Update on my death status with this power. It happens much less now. What I've started doing is using Hover to get above the group before I launch the attack. It's not a perfect solution but it does prevent most of the two-shot deaths I was getting before.
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I dunno, I can see a -tohit for HoB easily enough, but it also seems a little awkward that we do all that twisting and spinning and it doesn't make us any harder to hit than someone just standing there dishing out the damage. Truth be told, if they aren't interested in making DP damage respectable, giving a very small, short term +def with each attack to compensate for the long animation times spent whirling like a lunatic might be appropriate.
Either way, either the enemies need to get more dead or the players need to get less dead when it comes to Hail of Bullets.