Cloak of Darkness, bad for a Tank?


Berzerker_NA

 

Posted

Something to remember: you are stealthy with the power running.

Obvious perhaps, but if the lead tank is stealthy and the squishies right behind him are not, disaster can often follow. Nothing as spectacular as watching the stealthy tank rush into melee, while the rest of the team is obliterated by the spawn before he can get there.

I just started up a DA/BA tanker, and I'm still on the fence on whether to get CoD. From my /DA scrapper I know Immob is the bane of my melee enjoyment. On the other hand, he'll be getting CJ/SJ.


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@Starflier

 

Posted

The basic thing to remember is that stealth and aggro are not diametrically opposed. What stealth does is reduce your chance to get aggro in the first place. Once you have aggro, however, stealth is no longer applicable to the battle. This is true for a Stalker as well as a Tanker, sure a Stalker's stealth is so good they can stand right in melee with a foe and not be seen (and this is true only for Stalkers, and stealth + SS) but once he makes that attack, his foe can see him and outside of Placate there's nothing he can do to lose aggro.

I actually came up with the concept of a stealthy Tanker prior to Dark, and played a Stone/Axe Tanker with the Stealth power. The basic idea was that I could approach the enemy spawn, getting very close to melee, and avoiding ranged counterfire until I was almost right on top of them. I did have to be careful to warn my teammates not to attack until I made my move, as otherwise they'd be a lot more visible than me. Once the fight began, though, anything I aggroed stayed aggroed on me. The same has proved true with my Dark/Dual Blades.

Even if it weren't for the stealth, CoD provides Immobilize protection, enhanced Perception, and Defense that does not suppress. Sure, it's only 5%, and there are better places to put slots, but as long as your teammates understand the strategy of letting the Tanker grab aggro before opening fire, you're not going to be penalized for keeping it up.

The only argument I ever had against it, that it makes your character totally invisible, can be changed at the Tailor.


 

Posted

I have a level 31 dark/axe tank, and with a few IO bonus's CoD, CJ, and weave I am running about 20 percent defense versus Melee, now CoD and weave are not fully slotted up yet. All that being said I have found just that bit of defense has made a huge difference to his surviability. That has made CoD worth it, and when it gets slotted up even more so (hush about defense debuff attacks its my happy little world)


"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)

 

Posted

CoD looks cool and offers perception and Def. Why wouldn't you love it?
I mean: Dark has proper Resistances, Mez Auras and a massive heal, as we all know. If you add Def to the mix, you can almost make it into a kind of Granite without the penalties. A little End-Heavy if you do so, but that can be fixed with IOs. Also: If you're using a secondary that offers whatever kind of weapon, you get extra coolness. My Dark/Stone is an invisible Mist of deep red with glowing eyes attacking with a hammer floating in mid-air. How awesome is that?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starflier View Post
Something to remember: you are stealthy with the power running.

Obvious perhaps, but if the lead tank is stealthy and the squishies right behind him are not, disaster can often follow. Nothing as spectacular as watching the stealthy tank rush into melee, while the rest of the team is obliterated by the spawn before he can get there.

I just started up a DA/BA tanker, and I'm still on the fence on whether to get CoD. From my /DA scrapper I know Immob is the bane of my melee enjoyment. On the other hand, he'll be getting CJ/SJ.
If you're running CoD and the damage aura and/or one or both of the mez auras, you lose the stealth the instant you're in range of one of the enemies, and you start layering good strong taunts on them. If a squishie is close enough that they're gonna get hurt, then they're close enough that they risk getting aggro before ANY tank, not just a dark.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starflier View Post
Something to remember: you are stealthy with the power running.

Obvious perhaps, but if the lead tank is stealthy and the squishies right behind him are not, disaster can often follow. Nothing as spectacular as watching the stealthy tank rush into melee, while the rest of the team is obliterated by the spawn before he can get there.

I just started up a DA/BA tanker, and I'm still on the fence on whether to get CoD. From my /DA scrapper I know Immob is the bane of my melee enjoyment. On the other hand, he'll be getting CJ/SJ.
Yeah. It's best if you're comfortable toggling it on and off. If your play style is to just turn on all your shields, and leave them on, then I could see this power becoming very frustrating for you.

Also, sometimes aggro is a bad thing. It's always nice to be able to scale it back a little bit if you're starting to get in over your head. Sometimes I like to build a tank with the Concealment pool, so I can ethereal shift my way out of sticky situations. Everything has its time and place.


 

Posted

I might as well ask here: the 'no fade/pulse' (or whatever it's called) option for Dark Armor, does that eliminate the 'stealthy' graphic associated with CoD?


They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!

@Starflier

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starflier View Post
I might as well ask here: the 'no fade/pulse' (or whatever it's called) option for Dark Armor, does that eliminate the 'stealthy' graphic associated with CoD?

I recently learned of this myself from Celidya on the scrapper forum.

The "No Fade or Pulse" option is what you want on Cloak of Darkness.
You will still have a smokey graphic associated with the power, but your character will not fade out and be invisible.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
I recently learned of this myself from Celidya on the scrapper forum.

The "No Fade or Pulse" option is what you want on Cloak of Darkness.
You will still have a smokey graphic associated with the power, but your character will not fade out and be invisible.
Awesome. Thanks.


They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!

@Starflier

 

Posted

The perception alone is enough to draw me to CoD. Being blinded is more frustrating than any other status effect in the game for me. As others have mentioned, you don't have to completely soft cap to reap great rewards from defense. 20-30% alone will net you significant returns and 8% is a hefty start.

If I weren't so fond of combat jumping for in battle maneuverability I would more appreciate the immob protection on CoD.

Good power!


 

Posted

Sounds like most of the posts are right on target here. Cloak of Darkness, in my experience, is a fine power. My main is a SS/Will brute, which I take fly on, and drop freebird +steath. CoD is about the same as that stealth, plus some defense, +other cool stuff. It will noton a well run tank, affect your agro management. I have just leveled a dark/dark to 32 and plan to take the build to 50. I do run the build as a tank/troller, meaning I use taunt and all 3 agro auras. I tank for 8 teams and have no problem holding agro. Not the most subtle tank, I combat jump into a mob and spam taunt. Lots of fun.

Also, I see a lot on the discussion of defense. I would argue, in my opinion, that Dark armor is neither a defense set (obviously) or a resist set. It could actually be argued that it is a heal based set. (maybe not argued successfully, but still.....) Here is where CoD comes in handy. With my aforementioned tactic of jumping into a spawn, hitting taunt, and waiting. I generally take a huge alpha. If my health is gonna bottom it will be here. Hit heal, and I am back up to full health, even if at 1% health. Suppose the baddies are still clawing at me hard? As a dark/dark, I work my combat punch little heal, wait 15 seconds for my major heal again (I am not I/O'd yet) What I cannot afford is any more agro. The CoD makes sure I get no more. While my taunt and 3 agro auras ensure I hold all that I already grabbed so my team is okay. It, in effect, becomes part of my personal agro management tool box. Until I want more agro, I do not collect more agro. Even if the next mob is darned close. They cannot see me until I want it and am ready for it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talionis View Post
My Dark/Stone is very very strong good tank. It uses a lot of endurance.
This is where you should have stopped.

Dark Armour shouldn't ever use a lot of endurance. My Dark Armour Tank runs ten toggles and never runs out of endurance.

The ten are, for reference:

Death Shroud
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Obsidian Shield
Cloak of Darkness
Cloak of Fear
Tough
Weave
Combat Jumping
Hover


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starflier View Post
Something to remember: you are stealthy with the power running.

Obvious perhaps, but if the lead tank is stealthy and the squishies right behind him are not, disaster can often follow. Nothing as spectacular as watching the stealthy tank rush into melee, while the rest of the team is obliterated by the spawn before he can get there.

I just started up a DA/BA tanker, and I'm still on the fence on whether to get CoD. From my /DA scrapper I know Immob is the bane of my melee enjoyment. On the other hand, he'll be getting CJ/SJ.
This is easily solved by either taunting or making sure you're -running- into the mobs, not walking toward them. Even with squishies on top of you, it only takes about 2 seconds to gather the stray aggro if you're set on doing it.

However, your note -is- important. Stealth tanking is -not- recommended for someone who wants to do the tanking equivalent of healbotting.


The world is crazy. I offer this as proof; found on a butane lighter: Warning: Flame may cause fire.

You can sleep when you die.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
I don't think I've ever seen more ignorance than this.

I have a dark armor tank. I can stealth missions. I am softcapped to S/L/E/N. I can take full groups of cimerorans.

I couldn't do any of that without CoD. It provides 8% defense to all types. More than any two set bonuses. It's the same defensive value as weave, for less endurance, plus stealth. How is that worthless?
This.

Also with the new power customization you can still see your costume.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion View Post
Sounds like most of the posts are right on target here. Cloak of Darkness, in my experience, is a fine power. My main is a SS/Will brute, which I take fly on, and drop freebird +steath. CoD is about the same as that stealth, plus some defense, +other cool stuff. It will noton a well run tank, affect your agro management. I have just leveled a dark/dark to 32 and plan to take the build to 50. I do run the build as a tank/troller, meaning I use taunt and all 3 agro auras. I tank for 8 teams and have no problem holding agro. Not the most subtle tank, I combat jump into a mob and spam taunt. Lots of fun.

Also, I see a lot on the discussion of defense. I would argue, in my opinion, that Dark armor is neither a defense set (obviously) or a resist set. It could actually be argued that it is a heal based set. (maybe not argued successfully, but still.....) Here is where CoD comes in handy. With my aforementioned tactic of jumping into a spawn, hitting taunt, and waiting. I generally take a huge alpha. If my health is gonna bottom it will be here. Hit heal, and I am back up to full health, even if at 1% health. Suppose the baddies are still clawing at me hard? As a dark/dark, I work my combat punch little heal, wait 15 seconds for my major heal again (I am not I/O'd yet) What I cannot afford is any more agro. The CoD makes sure I get no more. While my taunt and 3 agro auras ensure I hold all that I already grabbed so my team is okay. It, in effect, becomes part of my personal agro management tool box. Until I want more agro, I do not collect more agro. Even if the next mob is darned close. They cannot see me until I want it and am ready for it.
Good point. Excessive aggro collection is the death of any tank who doesn't have something like 3 or 4 defenders watching out for them. You've got to let at least a few of your mobs go after teammates if you want to survive.

Also, even if the +8% (slotted) defense isn't a whole lot toward soft capping, it could turn out to be crucial if you're getting massively def debuffed, by helping to keep you from the other soft cap (-45%)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA View Post
Good point. Excessive aggro collection is the death of any tank who doesn't have something like 3 or 4 defenders watching out for them. You've got to let at least a few of your mobs go after teammates if you want to survive.
um, what? The aggro cap is 17. Plenty of builds can survive 17 attackers. Any enemies beyond that will go after your teammates no matter what you do.

P.S. Any tank that needs 3-4 defenders to keep him alive SUCKS LIKE A TORNADO.


Quote:
Also, even if the +8% (slotted) defense isn't a whole lot toward soft capping, it could turn out to be crucial if you're getting massively def debuffed, by helping to keep you from the other soft cap (-45%)
Say what? You can go below -45%. Trust me. Cimerorans have had my invuln tank down to -100% base defense.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
Say what? You can go below -45%. Trust me. Cimerorans have had my invuln tank down to -100% base defense.
Yeah, but after -45%, mathematically it doesn't matter, which is why he used the term softcap, not hardcap. I guess he's saying the 8% makes it take longer to get there... I guess.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreySquirrel View Post
Dark Armour shouldn't ever use a lot of endurance. My Dark Armour Tank runs ten toggles and never runs out of endurance.
DA doesn't use a lot of endurance when slotted for it, when you don't, it uses a crapton. Stone melee on the other hand uses a TON of endurance. Next time put some consideration for the players secondary set before telling them they are bad.

As for the question of CoD, it isn't a bad pick. It gives you a substantial base for working towards the softcap. It doesn't interfere with aggro at all once you engage, or if you have Death Shroud on. It gives you some utility. Overall, it is a pretty sexy power.

Now, if someone argued that CoF or OG were useless powers, well, I could get behind that. I would be wrong, but much stronger arguments could be made for those two.


Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.