Damage Comparison: Rage vs. No Rage
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-25 06:20 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quick and dirty response:
On a brute, rage gives an 80% damage buff for 120 seconds and then kills damage for 10 seconds.
Picking a number purely out of the air, let's say you have an attack that does 100 damage.
I can add 95% buff from enhancements. I get can more from fury, but there's some variation so let's pick an arbitrary value of 75% fury or 150% damage buff.
100 base damage
With enhancements and fury that becomes 100*(1+.95+1.5) = 345
With single stacked rage added in, we go 100*(1+.95+1.5+.8) = 425 BUT 1/13th of the time it does 0 damage. 425*(12/13) = 392.308
With double stacked raged, we go 100*(1+.95+1.5+1.6) = 505 BUT there's 2 crashes to deal with so 505*(11/13) = 427 damage
To rewrite them:
100 base
345 enhs, fury
392 enhs, fury, rage
427 enhs, fury, rage*2
Let's say that attack takes 2 seconds to animate
50 DPS
172.5 DPS
196 DPS
213 DPS
Can you get by without rage? Absolutely. Does your overall DPS suffer because of it? Yes. Is doublestacking rage a solid goal regardless of the double crash? Looks that way for those pushing the bleeding edge.
I hate the rage crash as well, but ever since I silenced the rage sound effect, it became tolerable for me. Still ended up deleting my SS/WP brute in the 30s.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
So at high Fury levels Rage is only buffing your overall damage by 12%? That makes skipping Rage and picking up 12% damage bonus look fairly viable. I would not have guess that.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
345 enhs, fury
392 enhs, fury, rage |
Of course, it also gives you a constant base 20% ToHit (enhanceable to 31%) so that has to be considered as well.
I understand though that Rage is going to be modified at some point in the not-so-distant future (Soon). Something that eliminates the crash and brings Rage into line ToHit-wise (like Focused Accuracy) seeming likely.
SS/SR just might be my favorite melee setup in the entire game. And the Rage crash isn't game-ending for SR as I thought it might be at first. A good title for SS/SR would be "Why Are You Hitting Yourself? A Guide to SS/SR"
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Quote:
Actually a 12% damage bonus wouldn't be the same. Remember that damage bonuses are based on your base damage so to get the same benefit as Rage you still need the same bonus (80% * 12/13 = 73.8%).|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
So at high Fury levels Rage is only buffing your overall damage by 12%? That makes skipping Rage and picking up 12% damage bonus look fairly viable. I would not have guess that.
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The thing that clouds the issue is that Brutes get a rather low base damage but then get a lot of extra damage through Fury. The problem is that this Fury damage is applied as a damage buff so it is not enhanced by other damage buffs (enhancements, Rage, Assault etc.). These powers are significantly less effective on Brutes than on Scrappers and marginally less effective than on Tankers.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
So at high Fury levels Rage is only buffing your overall damage by 12%? That makes skipping Rage and picking up 12% damage bonus look fairly viable. I would not have guess that.
|
I lack Bill's math-fu, but I don't believe it works like that.
You're substituting a 12% damage bonus for an overall damage increase of 12% (which I'm not sure is accurate).
For example, perma-rage provides an 80% damage bonus for 120 seconds with a 10 second downtime vs. your suggested all the time 12% damage bonus.
Here are Bill's numbers for single stack perma-rage
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
With single stacked rage added in, we go 100*(1+.95+1.5+.8) = 425 BUT 1/13th of the time it does 0 damage. 425*(12/13) = 392.308
|
)100*(1+.95+1.5+.12) = 357.
So that's 357 vs. 392.
Keep in mind that's just DPA and not DPS. It also doesn't factor in something like consistently hitting 6-10 targets with footstomp.
However I think, if rage severely hinders your play style and you play on teams often that you could simply save rage for the "big fights" or when you want a damage boost.
I prefer to run a single stack myself, running double stacked due to rage crashes is just not enjoyable and while it might be the stronger DPS in a vacuum/pure numbers comparison it doesn't take "regular" play into consideration where you often have rage crashes at extremely inopportune times.
Quote:
On my Inv/SS Tanker, the crash is hardly noticeable. He fails at damaging anything for a little while and then the damage suddenly comes back. I personally think Rage is worth it, as it has a longer effect than Build Up on most other melee sets and just makes SS that much more awesome in damage.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Hello Number Crunchers and Lurkers,
I've been playing this game for some time and my first character made is a SS/INV Brute. Since that time I've leveled a few SS/ characters with my latest SS/WP Brute which I use quite often. I like the Superstrength Set and think it's one of the most "complete" sets around. It offers good ST damage, good AoE damage, a nice ranged attack and some mitigation if you feel the need (lolhandclap). The only power in the set that I tend to be on the fence about is Rage, and I wanted to propose a discussion. Now, don't get it twisted. I think Rage is a fine power and can provide some superior damage output but I find the crash to be annoying to me personally. I'm aware I could skip this power but I'm not sure I really like that option. So, here's what I'm asking... It's quite obvious having Rage active produces a higher damage output during the duration but I want to know if the Rage Crash will lower the overall damage output to a point where NOT taking Rage is a viable and attractive solution. My perspective is from a Brute, but feel free to give your thoughts on Brutes and/or Tankers. Unfortunately, I don't have the tools to determine the answer but I know many of you reading are very skilled at this type of comparison. So, what do you think? |
Quote:
Taking the exact same attack on a Scrapper (who of course can't have SS |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Quick and dirty response:
100 base damage With enhancements and fury that becomes 100*(1+.95+1.5) = 345 With single stacked rage added in, we go 100*(1+.95+1.5+.8) = 425 BUT 1/13th of the time it does 0 damage. 425*(12/13) = 392.308 With double stacked raged, we go 100*(1+.95+1.5+1.6) = 505 BUT there's 2 crashes to deal with so 505*(11/13) = 427 damage To rewrite them: 100 base 345 enhs, fury 392 enhs, fury, rage 427 enhs, fury, rage*2 Let's say that attack takes 2 seconds to animate 50 DPS 172.5 DPS 196 DPS 213 DPS |
) and using Bill's methodology because I'm far to lazy to come up with my own. 
100 damage for a Brute becomes 150 on a Scrapper base (100*[1.125/.75]). No Fury, of course.
With enhancements: 150*(1+.95) = 292.5
With enhancement + Rage: 150*(1+.95+1)= 442.5*(12/13) = 408.46
With enhancement + double rage: 150*(1+.95+2)=592.5*(11/13) = 501.34
To rewrite them:
150 base
292.5 enhs
408.46 enhs, rage
501.34 enhs, rage*2
Using Bill's DPS calc (which assumes no recharge I'm guessing)
75 DPS
146.25 DPS
204.23 DPS
250.67 DPS
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Ok, skipping all this number crunching stuff, Ima give some advice, of which you may or may not already be aware:
Take Rage; get enough recharge so that it always stacks before the crash to negate the -def problem; keep a very close eye on your stats, as soon as you see your damage buff drop, start cycling your vet attacks (assuming you have them). Sands, Nem, Blackwand, Sands should easily take care of your period of weakness.
You see, your vet attacks are not affected by damage buffs or debuffs. So while you won't be getting the damage numbers you would ideally like, you will be getting a lot better than what people usually do during the crash. I'm assuming things are still shooting at/hitting you to keep your fury up, of course, since vet attacks don't add to fury.
Now you may continue with the numbers stuff.
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Procs are also unaffected by the damage crash, so those of us who haven't been playing for 33 or 54 months also have that option to keep up their damage during the rage crash.
Quote:
You'd need 12% -resistance to do that, which buffs your overall damage value. It takes 80% enhanced damage to increase your overall damage by 12%. A 12% damage buff operates on base damage, just as the 80% from rage, which is why there's a lesser effect on Brutes that receive 95% socketed and 180% from 9/10ths fury.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
So at high Fury levels Rage is only buffing your overall damage by 12%? That makes skipping Rage and picking up 12% damage bonus look fairly viable. I would not have guess that.
|
Hello Number Crunchers and Lurkers,
I've been playing this game for some time and my first character made is a SS/INV Brute. Since that time I've leveled a few SS/ characters with my latest SS/WP Brute which I use quite often.
I like the Superstrength Set and think it's one of the most "complete" sets around. It offers good ST damage, good AoE damage, a nice ranged attack and some mitigation if you feel the need (lolhandclap). The only power in the set that I tend to be on the fence about is Rage, and I wanted to propose a discussion.
Now, don't get it twisted. I think Rage is a fine power and can provide some superior damage output but I find the crash to be annoying to me personally. I'm aware I could skip this power but I'm not sure I really like that option. So, here's what I'm asking...
It's quite obvious having Rage active produces a higher damage output during the duration but I want to know if the Rage Crash will lower the overall damage output to a point where NOT taking Rage is a viable and attractive solution. My perspective is from a Brute, but feel free to give your thoughts on Brutes and/or Tankers.
Unfortunately, I don't have the tools to determine the answer but I know many of you reading are very skilled at this type of comparison. So, what do you think?