Effective Petless Mastermind
By
Ben_Arizona,
Posted on: 2010-02-22 16:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Uh... Yeah, actually, it is about what a petless Mastermind is capable of. Did you miss that the last three or four times, or should I post it with a bigger font size so you can see it?|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I don't think it's a question of whether a petless Mastermind is capable of soloing. It's a question of the number crunchers squeezing every last bit of effectiveness from a build. For Masterminds, that means pets.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Assuming the target can be KBed (well, KU, since AS does low-mag KU, not KB), they will flip due to AS. Unlike many in-set powers and Jump Kick, AS doesn't have a chance attacked to the KU effect.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Sure, but as other people have pointed out, I think the practical results that'll be interesting to most non-theorycrafters are in applying the things you do for a petless mastermind to a pet-having mastermind so that when his pets wipe he doesn't feel too bothered.
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Originally Posted by Luminara
GuyPerfect, bravo. Well done. I was especially impressed with your +Regen. I may have to re-examine my own petless build in light of how effective it was for you.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
And you did ok for a Mastermind with no pets, I get that it's a challenge and believe me, nobody understands the concept of challenge better than I do. I was simply pointing out that the term "effective" doesn't belong in the thread title
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Originally Posted by milehigh77
I would love to see the build posted, not because I wanna steal your secret & go make a petless for myself. Do the means justify the end, in my mind, is what I am curious about.
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Originally Posted by damienray
Any chance you could post your build details ? Just curious
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I apologize to those who are simply curious about what I've done, but I won't be posting my build here. There have been enough instances of "you should have used pets" already and I don't want to give people more ammo. "You should get some positional +Def" or "you should get some global +Recharge" are definitely next on the list, since my build has neither, and it completely draws away from the topic at hand.
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Originally Posted by milehigh77
In closing, you picked a helluva time to invest in this project with a "real" effective dual pistoler on the way.
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Originally Posted by beyeajus74018
wow good job, guy! did you try a dual build or was this toon done that way from the ground up?
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I was all geared up for Bile Spray when Issue 13 came around, and in closed beta, they had that power replaced with Knockout Blow. Bile Spray was one of the main reasons I even made the character, and since I wasn't really into inventions at the point, I had a really weak character that wouldn't even get its signature power. DELETED!
Then things changed back in July, so I re-rolled. I have no shame to admit it: it started with green mitos, and just recently ended with lots and lots of pirates. I'd already been down the road, and now I'm at the end and there's not much lost in the transition.
Either way, there were never any Henchmen involved.
The title is appropriate. For a 'petless MM' it was indeed effective.
I wouldn't recommend anyone to go out and make a petless Mm and expect to be invited on teams...
The video did make me want my Dual Pistols/Poison Corruptor even more.
thank you.
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The joke's on you. I've teamed a lot with this character and no one's ever cared in the slightest.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
I wouldn't recommend anyone to go out and make a petless Mm and expect to be invited on teams...
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That's a common misconception in part by players that want to think there has to be a tank class.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
There's a "Tankermind" playstyle out there where the Mastermind himself charges into battle and takes all the aggro, leaving the Henchmen to wipe up behind him. I believe this is what the devs intended, given the Bodyguard mechanic and all the melee powers in the epic sets. Adding Henchmen to my build would give a lot of extra outgoing damage, but it'd pretty much just be the same with stuff following me around.
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Bodyguard was added after the fact......in issue 7 and not from the beginning.
Villain patrons weren't added in the beginning, either, also coming in issue 7.
Furthermore, patron and epic powers are often complementary powers to round out what an AT wasn't getting from their other options. Squishy ATs get armor options, Melee toons get ranged options, low damage ATs get better damage options......so on and so forth.
While I wouldn't make the direct case that because epics/patrons contain complementary powers that it means the AT was designed as the opposite of those powers, it is a very poor argument to assume that an AT getting melee powers means it was intended for melee.
The fact that there is a tankermind option for players to take (and it works far more effectively for some combos than others) does not in any way mean that it was the intended option for players to take.
You spent billions on your petless MM & the joke's on Tokyo?
You must be into that super, duper pineapple express...
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The devs stated back in the day that Mastermind was intended to be the Villain functional equivalent to Tanker: aggro control. While they did that fairly well to an extent from the get-go, the devs decided they needed Bodyguard. Why, did they die too fast?|
Originally Posted by brophog02
The fact that there is a tankermind option for players to take (and it works far more effectively for some combos than others) does not in any way mean that it was the intended option for players to take.
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A lot of players even today don't use Bodyguard; they do what they did before Issue 7: instruct the Henchmen to do the dirty work and buff/debuff from a distance. In fact, the preferred playstyle on the forums has been that Masterminds not even take their ranged attacks because they don't intend to be part of the combat.
And then came Issue 13. Bile Spray, Night Fall, Mace Beam Volley and Static Discharge were all on the chopping block. The devs say they pulled the least-used powers, but I find it a mite suspicious that they were taking all the cone attacks out of the Mastermind epics. What were they replaced with? Knockout Blow, Oppressive Gloom, Power Boost and Thunder Strike, respectively. With the exception of Power Boost, that's awfully melee of them.
I don't think it's out of the question to suggest that the devs looked at how Masterminds played and said, "How can we make them more Tankery? Let's try Bodyguard. Well, they're sturdy now, but they're still not going into the fray. Let's give them melee powers and see if that does the trick."
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Originally Posted by milehigh77
You spent billions on your petless MM & the joke's on Tokyo?
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Besides....... it was only one billion. (-:
Did you level all the way up with this Iron Man?
I got up to level 27 with a Necro/TA petless MM without the use of Vet Powers nor IOs (and totally solo, so, I don't want to hear about how what I did affected anyone's super efficient team). I certainly couldn't take on a x3 spawn and often had to wait to outlevel an EB in order to defeat it, but, it was done... then I got bored.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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Indeed I did, and I didn't take Shark Skin until 47. Most of it was teamed, however. I use normal SOs until level 47 since I insist on using level 50 IOs. And since I couldn't frankenslot prior to that, my powers weren't anywhere near as effective as they are now. So I teamed as a support role; keeping people alive and debuffing the enemy. People often commented on just how quickly things went down once I started paying attention to them.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Did you level all the way up with this Iron Man?
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Also, not that it matters, but a random note of trivia: the character in the video is actually female.
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I'm not talking about your intentions, I'm talking about the responses you're getting, including from me. I fully admit to being a min/maxer, and looking at that build, I twitch at how much more it could do with the addition of pets.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Uh... Yeah, actually, it is about what a petless Mastermind is capable of. Did you miss that the last three or four times, or should I post it with a bigger font size so you can see it?
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I do applaud you for your achievements. I'm just saying the character could be capable of even loftier ones
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I'm aware of the numbers, but I've also seen it in practice. Sometimes, enemies just don't fall down when you use it. I don't know why. Though if memory serves me correctly, I only remember it failing on bosses, which might have something to do with it, but it's still very rare.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
There's a "Tankermind" playstyle out there where the Mastermind himself charges into battle and takes all the aggro, leaving the Henchmen to wipe up behind him. I believe this is what the devs intended, given the Bodyguard mechanic and all the melee powers in the epic sets.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I've seen my fair share of Defenders who couldn't do what I've done in the video: either they'd take a lot longer or they'd die from all the incoming damage.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I agree. Fail.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
You were playing on +0/x3 I'm guessing? and it took you over 90 seconds to clear a Council spawn that small? yeah, that's not effective.
Cute? yes. Effective? newp. |
To the OP:
Another "well done" from over this way.
To provide a bit of historical perspective, for quite a while posting about petless MMs on the forums would lead to cries of "unplayable" and personal invective being hurled at those raising the issue; the intention of some posters was very clearly--even explicitly, in a few cases--to bully those who argued in favor of playing petless MMs, or who were persistently inquisitive about viable petless builds. That nasty little coterie of posters has moved on and hopefully they're more mature and tolerant now, wherever they are.
In other words, the response you've received is a double scoop of sunshine and happiness, compared to responses you would probably have received in the past.
By all means, share your build; it does the forums good to have different versions of effectiveness floating around in them. Knowing builds associated with those different versions of effectiveness is also helpful.
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Thank you, but your comments about Henchmen are entirely inapplicable to the thread. I ask that you keep them to yourself.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I do applaud you for your achievements. I'm just saying the character could be capable of even loftier ones
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
It's not an issue of rank, but of enemy type. Some just won't get KU'd.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Give the Defender a billion influence worth of IOs and make a non-healer build, and I would expect the Defender to do better.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Of course, a healer build of any kind, even with 30 billion in IOs, wouldn't match a petless Mastermind on SOs.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I agree. Fail.
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Also, allow me to bring to your attention that you are in the minority.
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Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
To provide a bit of historical perspective, for quite a while posting about petless MMs on the forums would lead to cries of "unplayable" and personal invective being hurled at those raising the issue; the intention of some posters was very clearly--even explicitly, in a few cases--to bully those who argued in favor of playing petless MMs, or who were persistently inquisitive about viable petless builds. That nasty little coterie of posters has moved on and hopefully they're more mature and tolerant now, wherever they are.
In other words, the response you've received is a double scoop of sunshine and happiness, compared to responses you would probably have received in the past. |
And I'm aware that there are people who only post in this thread because they feel the need to spread their own feces on their faces. I'm actually surprised at the positive-to-negative feedback ratio I've been getting.
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Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
By all means, share your build; it does the forums good to have different versions of effectiveness floating around in them. Knowing builds associated with those different versions of effectiveness is also helpful.
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EDIT:
Wait, maybe I won't. You have PMs disabled?
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Just because it's an empath, doesn't mean it's a healer.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I apologize for disagreeing with the majority of your keystrokes, but I have an Emp/Elec Defender that does quite a bit better in combat with SOs than my petless Mastermind with IOs. The Defender simply starts with more damage than Mastermind, and has a whole powerset dedicated to attacks.
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Healer: Stays out of the fight, spams Healing Aura, sometimes uses Heal Other or Absorb Pain, and might use Fortitude or Clear Mind. Usually only has the one required attack. (Insert appropriate powers for Pain Domination healer or Radiation Emission healer, etc.)
Empathy Defender: Actually fights while the long-recharge powers aren't available. Realizes that Fortitude is more likely to save a teammate's butt than Healing Aura is. Etc.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
What kind of crazy-apple definition of healer is that? I have, slot and use every single power from Empathy during combat, and my teammates are grateful. If that's not a healer, then I should start handing out dictionaries.
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You lose, actually.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
But it was worthy of your time to post in this thread, I see. I guess that means I win, eh?
Also, allow me to bring to your attention that you are in the minority. |
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Indeed I did, and I didn't take Shark Skin until 47. Most of it was teamed, however. I use normal SOs until level 47 since I insist on using level 50 IOs. And since I couldn't frankenslot prior to that, my powers weren't anywhere near as effective as they are now. So I teamed as a support role; keeping people alive and debuffing the enemy. People often commented on just how quickly things went down once I started paying attention to them.
Also, not that it matters, but a random note of trivia: the character in the video is actually female. |
i know you said that pistol went better for your toon, but did you number crunch or think any of the other MM attack would of been more powerful then pistol before making the toon, if setup the right way.
also i think alot of people on here are looking at this the wrong way, most seem to be looking for the one hit wounder mm "as it too slow in taking something out". i think as long as it survice and does a job well, it works 
good job
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No, it actually doesn't. The build was either effective or ineffective. Since he didn't die and did defeat the spawn, the build was not ineffective. Therefore it must be effective.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Goes both ways,
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| just because it fits your narrow-minded, |
That would be you.
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| low-expectation definition of the word doesn't make it right either. |
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| Either way the point remains, |
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no matter how dense you want to be 
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Do yourself a favor, tone down the nastiness. The moderators don't generally condone that kind of attitude. If you want a catfight, go solo Mynx, I have better things to do. If you wish to discuss different points of view like a reasonable adult, I'll be here.
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The derogatory CoH forum definition, created to emphasize the fact that the 5 non-healing powers in Empathy are much more effective at keeping a teammate upright (and, in the case of the two RAs, at keeping yourself upright) than the 3 healing powers (one of which can kill you). I would put Resurrect in a third category, since its use is only for after you've failed to keep a teammate upright (or used them for Vengeance bait).|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
What kind of crazy-apple definition of healer is that?
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In the Defender forums, if you're using all of your powers and doing your best to play the damn game, you're a Defender. If you're sitting around waiting for your heals to recharge and avoiding attacking the enemies because you might get aggro, you're a healer (or, h31z0rs).
Note: The derogatory form of 'healer' is not restricted to Empathy Defenders, and applies to anyone with a healing power who acts in the same fashion.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I didn't think it out, no. Looking at the sets, my guess is that Necromancy would be best for the situation, since it's -ToHit and has a self heal. The damage is neglegible due to the Mastermind's low damage scale, so I'd still be grabbing most of my damage from procs.|
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Empire_EU
i know you said that pistol went better for your toon, but did you number crunch or think any of the other MM attack would of been more powerful then pistol before making the toon, if setup the right way.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
In the Defender forums, if you're using all of your powers and doing your best to play the damn game, you're a Defender. If you're sitting around waiting for your heals to recharge and avoiding attacking the enemies because you might get aggro, you're a healer (or, h31z0rs).
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Originally Posted by Scythus
You lose, actually.
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My Kat/SR with Aid Other agrees with Fleeting Whisper's definition of "healer".
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Heck, sometimes it just gets applied to anyone who uses their healing powers at all. There've been a few overreacting backlashes against the very idea of healing on the Defender forum that I've seen.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Note: The derogatory form of 'healer' is not restricted to Empathy Defenders, and applies to anyone with a healing power who acts in the same fashion.
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To the OP, I actually wasn't trying to troll when asking if you could make a character with this level of petless effectiveness who also took the pet powers. I'm genuinely curious as to (a) what you did and (b) how well it would work with a five-power penalty, which is pretty significant. The former I wonder just because you've implied you do some uncommon and/or unpopular things with this build (beyond the obvious one, of course
), and the latter because I'm wondering if I might be able to apply the general ideas usefully.You acknowledge that what you did is essentially a stunt, although an impressive one. I would like to know more about it than just a "HA! Doubters, TAKE THAT!" sort of post, because I am curious about non-stunt applications.
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If I tossed out Antidote, Elixir of Life and Recall Friend... maybe Hover and Hurdle... well, then I'd only free up 4 Enhancement slots. I'm not sure there are enough Enhancements to go around without forfeiting one or mre of the powers I personally use in combat, which would definitely put a crimp on my effectiveness.|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
I actually wasn't trying to troll when asking if you could make a character with this level of petless effectiveness who also took the pet powers. I'm genuinely curious as to (a) what you did and (b) how well it would work with a five-power penalty, which is pretty significant. The former I wonder just because you've implied you do some uncommon and/or unpopular things with this build (beyond the obvious one, of course
), and the latter because I'm wondering if I might be able to apply the general ideas usefully. |
I'll PM you my build so you can look it over.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
You acknowledge that what you did is essentially a stunt, although an impressive one. I would like to know more about it than just a "HA! Doubters, TAKE THAT!" sort of post, because I am curious about non-stunt applications.
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Ignoring the min/max nutters, that was quite poetic. The idea of a petless Mastermind to me is quite fun, if potentially frustrating due to most likely being able to recreate a far more successfull Corruptor.
It cost you 1 Billion then? How long did it take to accumilate that, or was it just a dip into your funds? If you had to really work to gather the inf to make that build, then hats off to you, but if it's just pocket money set aside for it then wow, wish I had such freedom with the ingame funds for the occasional fun build.
Could you send me the build via PM? My main Mastermind, who just so happens to be Thugs/Poison/Mako actually, has a psuedo-Blastermind secondary build which just has the Enforcers (since I havn't enough inf to IO them out to be as effective as you've shown) and I'd be interested to see how you've got your character set up.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
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Hmmm...this really illustrates for me why one would select petless MM as a project.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
What kind of crazy-apple definition of healer is that? I have, slot and use every single power from Empathy during combat, and my teammates are grateful. If that's not a healer, then I should start handing out dictionaries.
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Me & you....we're from different planets.
Me is from Mars, you is from Venus.
Ok since I took the first shot, you can take the follow up uncontested.
Thereby, you're the winner!
gratzzz
wow good job, guy! did you try a dual build or was this toon done that way from the ground up?
I also agree with breaking the mold, I'm running a bot MM that skipped the battle drones, and it's working out well without them still.
Good job again!