/signed. JETPACK HUZZAH!
Asked for quite a bit (along with other back items, quivers and scabbards most commonly.) I *think* the only reason we haven't seen them is a case of wanting them to look good... as opposed to floating off the back or being embedded in it if you're anything but a specific body size with default sliders.
Personally, I'd like to have two back items - one for any "straps" and such (for things like the Vanguard, Valkyrie, etc. chest pieces - or just do the same for them as for the samurai set, which works as a fully surrounding piece,) and one for back accessories like jetpacks and whatnot.
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There's also the issue of animations. When your character bends his or her body for a specific animation the scabbard or backpack or jetpack or whatever needs to not clip. Currently there are two back Anchor Points. The waist point (for waist capes and trench coats) and the shoulders (for capes) Assuming the Shoulder slot was used there are certain animations which could make a jetpack clip through the body completely and come out of your crotch.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Asked for quite a bit (along with other back items, quivers and scabbards most commonly.) I *think* the only reason we haven't seen them is a case of wanting them to look good... as opposed to floating off the back or being embedded in it if you're anything but a specific body size with default sliders.
Personally, I'd like to have two back items - one for any "straps" and such (for things like the Vanguard, Valkyrie, etc. chest pieces - or just do the same for them as for the samurai set, which works as a fully surrounding piece,) and one for back accessories like jetpacks and whatnot. |
And in the reverse case the jetpack would not always be against your upper back during specific animations and, at other times, woulc stick out just under your chin.
-Rachel-
That is a great idea they should have done it a long time ago but it not to late!
Power is unless without the will to use it,
But will in nothing unless you believe in yourself.
And that is ture power!
Written by-Mr Amazing
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Well it seems more complicated than I originally thought, but they already have got jetpack animations and models in the game which as far as I can tell work fine on both characters and npcs, I am simply surprised that they didn't expand on it a little bit (which surely the devs can do with their godly powers) ages ago and simply make it so for example the Raptor pack could be a permanent costume choice.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
There's also the issue of animations. When your character bends his or her body for a specific animation the scabbard or backpack or jetpack or whatever needs to not clip. Currently there are two back Anchor Points. The waist point (for waist capes and trench coats) and the shoulders (for capes) Assuming the Shoulder slot was used there are certain animations which could make a jetpack clip through the body completely and come out of your crotch.
And in the reverse case the jetpack would not always be against your upper back during specific animations and, at other times, woulc stick out just under your chin. -Rachel- |
I can't be bothered to think of something amazingly wise or witty to show how much of a genius I am, just take my word for it.
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Try this experiment -|
Originally Posted by Brightwel
Well it seems more complicated than I originally thought, but they already have got jetpack animations and models in the game which as far as I can tell work fine on both characters and npcs, I am simply surprised that they didn't expand on it a little bit (which surely the devs can do with their godly powers) ages ago and simply make it so for example the Raptor pack could be a permanent costume choice.
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Make a character using the Huge body type, maxxing out all the sliders. Level the character up to the point of getting a Raptor Pack from the Mayhem Safeguard. See how the pack embeds itself into the character's back?
Now make a character using the Female body type, pushing the sliders the other direction to make the tiniest character possible. Level her up to getting the Raptor Pack. See how the pack stands out from her body as she moves around using it?
Move either character around while flying, firing off various attacks - see how the pack really doesn't move in a consistently logical way in response to that?
They really don't have character animations done to cover all the points Steampunkette mentioned.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
It seems to me that this will be in the game eventually. The devs just want it to be perfect (as usual.)
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I admit Ive never made a char with max or minimum slider sizes and I can see your point. Obvioulsy with all their hands full with GR and Issue 17 and the like I can't see them even considering something as minor as this for a while but despite the need for all you mentioned I am still skeptical that the devs would have to exert THAT much effert to implement this but as I've already shown I am by no means an expert on these things, though surely they could use some sort of system that simply has the jetpack scale with the character? Still I hope this sort of thing will be implemented at some point in the near-ish future since apart from expanding on the already huge amount of choice for the look of a character it also means I could happily make a hero called "Captain" something.
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Try this experiment -
Make a character using the Huge body type, maxxing out all the sliders. Level the character up to the point of getting a Raptor Pack from the Mayhem Safeguard. See how the pack embeds itself into the character's back? Now make a character using the Female body type, pushing the sliders the other direction to make the tiniest character possible. Level her up to getting the Raptor Pack. See how the pack stands out from her body as she moves around using it? Move either character around while flying, firing off various attacks - see how the pack really doesn't move in a consistently logical way in response to that? They really don't have character animations done to cover all the points Steampunkette mentioned. |
I can't be bothered to think of something amazingly wise or witty to show how much of a genius I am, just take my word for it.
Anyone else hoping that, at some point, they re-build the character rigs?
No more club hands and feet, huzzah for more detailed hands with fingers, and back details, and stuff?
/pipedream
What, never seen a robot smoke? 
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Most definitely.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Anyone else hoping that, at some point, they re-build the character rigs?
No more club hands and feet, huzzah for more detailed hands with fingers, and back details, and stuff? /pipedream What, never seen a robot smoke? |
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Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
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Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
I'm indifferent, but uniques sake! /signed
I was very disappointed that they weren't in the "Natural" pack.
Do wings have the same sinking/floating problem that the Raptor Pack does? Do Capes?
Then we have the attachment point. Wings and Capes are already mutually exclusive, no? Packs would be, too, then. Which is appropriate.
I WANT MY JETPACK COSTUME ITEMS!
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Capes are fabric and use the in-game physics engine to collide with a player's model in order to avoid too much overlap. The Wings anchor to two specific points on the player model and scale well due to the fact that they arc away from the body, thus avoiding clipping for the most part.|
Originally Posted by Tripp Hazzard
I was very disappointed that they weren't in the "Natural" pack.
Do wings have the same sinking/floating problem that the Raptor Pack does? Do Capes? Then we have the attachment point. Wings and Capes are already mutually exclusive, no? Packs would be, too, then. Which is appropriate. I WANT MY JETPACK COSTUME ITEMS! |
There may be an anchor point. But it's one that doesn't accommodate a rigid item pressed flat against the back at different sizes which works with the various animations in the game. This is why we don't have them, yet.
-Rachel-
I would imagine that, any back items would be programmed like wings, to move in response to various movements, and that's the reason they're taking so long.
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I don't discount your conclusion about this out of hand but people have been asking for these things since at least CoH beta that I can remember.|
Originally Posted by Evilanna
It seems to me that this will be in the game eventually. The devs just want it to be perfect (as usual.)
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Perfection is one thing, but it has been 6+ years now. Just how -perfect- do these things have to be?
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I too hope this particular upgrade comes one day.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Anyone else hoping that, at some point, they re-build the character rigs?
No more club hands and feet, huzzah for more detailed hands with fingers, and back details, and stuff? /pipedream What, never seen a robot smoke? |
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Perfect enough to eat off of! No... wait...
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I don't discount your conclusion about this out of hand but people have been asking for these things since at least CoH beta that I can remember.
Perfection is one thing, but it has been 6+ years now. Just how -perfect- do these things have to be? |
/signed. My Gold Bricker needs a permanent rocket pack already.
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It seems to me that you could use the wings code and attachment points, and all you need is some new animations. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Capes are fabric and use the in-game physics engine to collide with a player's model in order to avoid too much overlap. The Wings anchor to two specific points on the player model and scale well due to the fact that they arc away from the body, thus avoiding clipping for the most part.
There may be an anchor point. But it's one that doesn't accommodate a rigid item pressed flat against the back at different sizes which works with the various animations in the game. This is why we don't have them, yet. -Rachel- |
A pack with folding wings (think Buzz Lightyear) would need a folded image for off, one with the wings extending for starting, one with the wings extended and fixed for flight, and one with the wings folding for landing.
A pack with no wings (or fixed wings like the Raptor Pack) would be even simpler. You'd only need the on and off images/animations, as appropriate.
You would have to make one change to the Wings code: Wings flap when you jump. You'd have to take that part out of the wings code, so the jetpack would activate only when you're actually flying/hovering.
But I must be overlooking something else, because if it was really that simple, wouldn't it have been done by now?
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There is a completely separate "back" anchor point that's square in the middle of the back on the spine just below the shoulder blades. This is not related in any way to the shoulders or the waist, and is instead stuck to the spine. If you try the Goldbricker jet pack (and they haven't fixed it yet) with a really tiny model, you'll see a small green cube where it's supposed to hook on. I assume around there is where the anchor point is. WorldCraft called these cubes "origin," and I assume they serve the same purpose here.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
There's also the issue of animations. When your character bends his or her body for a specific animation the scabbard or backpack or jetpack or whatever needs to not clip. Currently there are two back Anchor Points. The waist point (for waist capes and trench coats) and the shoulders (for capes).
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The back anchor point is currently fully functional, because that's where wings hook up. The problem, as far as I've seen it, is not animations, it's costume scaling. As we've seen with temporary powers and, indeed, as wings show, how big your chest is doesn't really have a very big effect on how fat back your wings are, causing a large part of them to sink into your back if you have a fat chest with bulky armour and causing part of their geometry to actually unearth itself out of your back if you're small enough. From what I've seen, costume piece anchor points do not offset, only the pieces' locations relative to them get "weighed."
Easy example: Shields. Remember how, when they were first introduced, Shields conformed to the basic shape of the hand, causing larger, bulky gloves to clip through the shield? That's the same thing. BABs had to go and specifically tweak shields to offset above the gloves to prevent practically everything other than Smooth/Bare from clipping. I don't know what he did to accomplish it, but it seems to have worked. Something like this would need to happen with jet packs, I assume.
From what I've seem animations themselves aren't a problem if the jet pack is designed well. The Raptor Pack and the way its engines are brought out to the side instead of widening the back and making elbows clip through it is clever. Sure, hands and weapons may sometimes clip with the outriggers, but that's easy enough to overlook, as it's both rare and brief. The long "butt engine" might be problematic, which I assume is why the Goldbricker pack is very short by comparison.
If I had to make a guess, I'd say the BIGGEST problem with jet packs on player models is one of the animations of the jet pack itself. You COULD just stick uni-directional jets on a couple of outriggers, but this looks really bad when most flight poses have them pointing either down or to the side. Thrust vectoring jets that actually aim back with the animation would probably be what it takes for this to look good, and that might be... Kind of a fuzzy tech, since you can't animate the thing for every combat move. Of course, I wouldn't exactly cry foul if we got fixed-direction jets because I WANT WANT WANT jet packs, but I'd be a lot happier if they pointed opposite to the direction of thrust.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You don't understand, Trip. It's not the PACK'S animations that are the issue. It's all the other animations in the game which don't account for a rigid spine to accommodate the pack.
Think of Whirling hands. Your spine curves and arcs, twists to accommodate the motion you're making, right? Put a rigid item flat against your back and do the same exact animation. The item will clip every time if it reaches from the shoulders to the waist, which most people would want for jet packs rather than the Pocket D shoulder-boost jump-pack.
Even the basic run animation has the hips and shoulders move in slightly different directions (since that's how a human moves) and such an item would swing across the lower back, not attached at all.
All in all, it's easier said than done.
-Rachel-
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I think you overestimate what people would want. The Goldbricker Jump Pack works perfectly fine and I've never heard anyone complain about it. It still has the scaling issues, obviously, but it goes down to just above the kidneys.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Think of Whirling hands. Your spine curves and arcs, twists to accommodate the motion you're making, right? Put a rigid item flat against your back and do the same exact animation. The item will clip every time if it reaches from the shoulders to the waist, which most people would want for jet packs rather than the Pocket D shoulder-boost jump-pack.
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And besides, even if it DID go down - our armour bends all the time and no-one ever seems to complain. Just articulate the thing and be done with it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well we seem to have both positive and negative opinions on how hard it would be to actually implement, regardless of that though I don't think that just a permanent and customisable raptor and zero-g pack would really be good enough would it? Assuming (and hopefully when) permanent jetpack costume pieces are to be implemented what sort of jetpacks would you like to see? And not just jetpacks remember, we're also talking about jumppacks and telepacks as well.
I can't be bothered to think of something amazingly wise or witty to show how much of a genius I am, just take my word for it.
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No, a permanent Raptor Pack would most definitely NOT be good, because it sinks in your back if your character is larger. At the very least, we need something that hangs ON the back, not IN it.
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Originally Posted by Brightwel
Well we seem to have both positive and negative opinions on how hard it would be to actually implement, regardless of that though I don't think that just a permanent and customisable raptor and zero-g pack would really be good enough would it? Assuming (and hopefully when) permanent jetpack costume pieces are to be implemented what sort of jetpacks would you like to see? And not just jetpacks remember, we're also talking about jumppacks and telepacks as well.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ok Im a little surprised that these have not been added but why is there no jetpack costume pieces? I realise you can "sort" of get one with temp powers but as the title implies it is only temporary. What I want to see is permanent jetpacks as costume pieces that would just be perfect for tech or natural origins or just those who can't really think of a reason why there hero/villian can fly. I mean there are already wings and rocket boots which are all well and good but personally I would prefer the look of a good ol' jetpack and whether or not you all agree with me but the tech wings and rocket boots can sometimes have a bit to much of an "advanced" feel.
While Im on a roll just jetpacks isn't enough either, why not jump and telepacks? There are already Jumpack and Telepack (Sky Raider "Porters" have them I believe) models and textures in the game so I can't see either of them being to hard to implement. Anyone agree with me on this? Please do give feedback.
I can't be bothered to think of something amazingly wise or witty to show how much of a genius I am, just take my word for it.