Blasters need more Secondaries


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
My dream secondary would be another "natural-friendly" set like Devices, but focusing more on a mix of gadgets and martial arts attacks. Something like:

Dragon's Tail
Storm Kick
Caltrops
Build Up
Crane Kick
Acid Mortar
Smoke Flash
Eagle's Claw
Poison Trap


(Ok, I know that set would probably be overpowered as hell, but I did say it was my dream set... )

But seriously, I really want a secondary with some non-glowing, non-elemental melee attacks. With Dual Pistols being such a gun foo inspired set it's almost unthinkable not to have punches and kicks to complete the picture.
I see what you're getting at but we already have Devices so if the devs make a martial arts secondary I'd rather not have it copy powers from Devices/Traps. Besides, there is no way in hell the devs will give Blasters Acid Mortar or Poison Gas Trap.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I really, really doubt that it will get Focused Accuracy. Devices supposedly gets Targeting Drone to make up for not having Build Up and giving another set what is essentially Targeting Drone (even the nerfed Scrapper version) would make it even more obvious that Devices is a poorly designed set. Physical Perfection is might work though.
Actually, I'm pretty sure the counterbalance to not having Build Up is "supposed to be" the massive damage on Trip Mine and Time Bomb. I do think Devices could use some work (a little more meat on Smoke Grenade's debuff would go a long way, for example) but I think it could survive another set having a +acc toggle.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
Dragon's Tail
Storm Kick
Caltrops
Build Up
Crane Kick
Acid Mortar
Smoke Flash
Eagle's Claw
Poison Trap
I'd probably go with something else for my Martial Manipulation:

Web Grenade
Storm Kick
Crane Kick
Focus Chi
Physical Perfection
Cobra Strike
Eagle's Claw
Quickness
Dragon's Tail


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Posted

I think Blasters should get Electric Armor and Willpower.

Dual Pistols / Willpower Blaster ftw!


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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I disagree.

Blasters need more Epics!

A Psi Epic!

Indomitable Will
Psychic Shield
Resurgence
Debuff Power
Some mez power

Good to go!
/signed


 

Posted

I'm surprised that they're isn't a /Dark Blaster secondary yet...

But I agree with whoever commented on the lack of unique Blaster secondaries, it's pretty disappointing. My votes for a new secondary is easily a form of /Dark and maybe even a form of /Storm...take out some of the controlling powers so it isn't a direct port, and add a few melee attacks, etc.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
I'd probably go with something else for my Martial Manipulation:

Web Grenade
Storm Kick
Crane Kick
Focus Chi
Physical Perfection
Cobra Strike
Eagle's Claw
Quickness
Dragon's Tail
It really needs a better title. I keep reading that as Marital Manipulation.

It's still a good premise to have more secondaries.


 

Posted

As gimped as Trick Arrow is as a Corruptor secondary, you still can't have a blaster set with that many controls - it's game breaking. The challenging thing about blaster secondaries is that if they give the player more 'fun' in terms of non-damage powers, they can easily break the set by giving serious controls/buffs/debuffs to a dps heavy class.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet View Post
As gimped as Trick Arrow is as a Corruptor secondary, you still can't have a blaster set with that many controls - it's game breaking. The challenging thing about blaster secondaries is that if they give the player more 'fun' in terms of non-damage powers, they can easily break the set by giving serious controls/buffs/debuffs to a dps heavy class.
You'll note I didn't suggest actually porting it over directly. I was suggesting making a new set based on Trick Arrow. Obviously porting the entire set over would be broken (for the same reason porting entire melee sets over would be broken) but there are some skills that could reasonably be ported over (Entangling Arrow, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, maybe Poison Gas Arrow) to form the skeleton of a set.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
You'll note I didn't suggest actually porting it over directly. I was suggesting making a new set based on Trick Arrow. Obviously porting the entire set over would be broken (for the same reason porting entire melee sets over would be broken) but there are some skills that could reasonably be ported over (Entangling Arrow, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, maybe Poison Gas Arrow) to form the skeleton of a set.
Glue Arrow would be an enormous gift to Blasters, IMO. To not have to worry about melee combat from entire spawns doesn't seem appropriate to me - glue arrow + aoe's would be rather easy in many situations.


 

Posted

i think that for all power sets they should add a way to do split secondaries. Like taking a few fire and a few energy powers. As long as you can't double up on teir 9 powers or have two build ups. Maybe this would be too powerfull. But, it would open up alot of options.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAST_RONIN View Post
i think that for all power sets they should add a way to do split secondaries. Like taking a few fire and a few energy powers. As long as you can't double up on teir 9 powers or have two build ups. Maybe this would be too powerfull. But, it would open up alot of options.
There was a suggestion for this a few weeks ago, and it was shot down because powers aren't always ordered in the same order. For example, followup is not the same level as rage, so one could potentially have a brute with both followup and rage. There are plenty of other examples out there.

Plus the secondaries of tanks/brutes, and corrs/fenders are reversed, so you can't apply that generalization.


 

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I will agree with this. One of the Archetypes that you see 100,000,000 of on Champions Online is the Deadpool wantabees. When something is popular it is best to give it to the paying consumers so they don't go get it somewhere else.

The sets don't have to be too good or anything, but none of these sets break the game or the Blaster Archetype.

Dual Blades,
Katana, and
Martial Arts should all be ported.

Lord knows a lot of people want to make GunFu builds. Its a popular thing in Anime. It also was fun with the whole Gun Katta thing from Equilibrium.

I agree they would not be total melee sets, but it would be interesting so see:

Quickness
Focused Accuracy
Willpowers Endurance gaining power ported into them in varied ways. I'm sure some other interesting things could be done.

I think Caltrops might be appropriate in more than one set. Lord knows, build up is in almost have the sets in the game.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet View Post
Glue Arrow would be an enormous gift to Blasters, IMO. To not have to worry about melee combat from entire spawns doesn't seem appropriate to me - glue arrow + aoe's would be rather easy in many situations.
Devices and Ice already have powers that allow a Blaster to prevent a spawn from getting into melee range so it wouldn't be something completely new for a Blaster set. Now I will admit that the Blaster version of Glue Arrow would probably need to be weakened beyond the basic changing of AT values but I think the concept is still fine. If I was doing it I'd probably decrease the radius from 25 feet to 10/15 feet and maybe decrease the time the debuff lingers for after leaving the patch as well. The devs did a similar thing with the difference between Ice Slick and Ice Patch.


 

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Actually the Ice Secondary's version of Shiver outperforms Glue Arrow and just about every other slow power out there. It debuffs somewhat less than Controller Shiver but recharges in 12 seconds where the Controller version recharges in 30. The exact reasons for this are unknown to me but you may as well take advantage of it.


 

Posted

Bow Manipulation

  1. Entangling Arrow (As Trick Arrow)
  2. Archer's Kick (Melee High Damage)
  3. Build Up
  4. Ice Arrow (As Trick Arrow)
  5. Focused Accuracy (As targeting drone)
  6. Sleep Gas Arrow (Sleep)
  7. Archer's Roundhouse (Melee Superior Damage)
  8. Oil Slick Arrow (As Trick Arrow)
  9. Archer's Spin Kick (PBAoE; High )


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Posted

Note that Dominators have Control for their Primary, and then their Secondary is a mishmash of Ranged, Melee, and offense oriented buffs like Build Up, Fiery Embrace, Power Boost, and Drain Psyche. (Drain Psyche is the closest you get to a heal or defense in that mix) Blaster Secondaries are more varied because they were designed before any uniform concept was finalized, but in theory you could say the Blaster Primary is Ranged, and their Secondary is a mishmash of Melee and Control.

Where Blasters differ from Controllers and Dominators is that their control powers are more single target oriented, and geared more towards keeping foes away and off of them rather than held down in large numbers and helpless. Energy really has the best control emphasis because of the large number of Disorients. Which is how you use Melee on a Blaster, you make sure your foe is helpless and unable to fight back before you clobber him. (Same goes for a Dominator, as well)

There has been a lot of talk about a Dual Pistols themed Secondary, not to mention one that could be used with Assault Rifle and Archery, but here are the themes we have left to pair with Manipulation:

Earth Manipulation - As there is no Earth Blast set at this time, it would be likely these would be developed as a pair.

Plant/Spines Manipulation - Combining Thorns with some plant or nature-based control powers, say starting with Entangle and working from there, might make for an interesting set. Seeds of Confusion would probably be a good fit, although the harder holds wouldn't be.

Dark Manipulation - Again, Blasters would have to get Dark Blast, and there has been some mention that the devs might not be open to Blasters getting -Acc as a secondary effect. The effect could be changed to something else, though, perhaps Fear or an Immobilize. (Or even -perception, and a second Blaster Secondary with a stealth power might be interesting)

Sonic Manipulation - There would need to be a Sonic Melee on which to base the melee attacks, but Sonic is a very control oriented set as it is. I could see something like Mental Manipulation implemented this way.

Radiation Manipulation - Again, Rad Melee would probably need to come first.

Martial Arts/Chi Manipulation - I've always thought of this as Energy Melee with kicks instead of punches. The buffing effects of Energy would fit nicely with the idea of Focus Chi.

Blade/Club/Weapon - The problem with this is the redraw. If paired with AR, Archery or Dual Pistols you would have to draw the melee weapon, then put it away to attack at range, then put the ranged weapon away and draw the melee weapon again to swing it. Unless in some way the same weapon used at range could be used as an improvised club in melee. It's not certain that the weapon customization feature would be able to support something like this, however.

Bow Manipulation - I like the idea of using the bow itself as a melee weapon, or perhaps at point blank range, or even martial arts kicks used with the bow drawn. The problem, though, is that you still have the redraw problems. And the bow or other weapon will HAVE to be drawn when the martial arts attacks are used. The Martial Arts option above will HAVE to have the weapon put away when they are used. AFAIK, you only have one option or the other, any given attack must either draw your weapon, or put it up. You can't have a Secondary that works one way with Archery, and another with Energy Blast. Trick Arrow draws the bow for every attack, and the Blaster version would have to, too. Even if it's just to do something like a Build Up. (Build Up draws your weapon for Weapon Sets)

Super Strength/Kinetic Manipulation - This would actually be more like control powers from Gravity, since Kinetic is a pretty strong buffing set. The idea, though, is the transfer of energy, manipulation of energy fields, and so on. Similar to Energy Manipulation, but more indirect, channelling the energy through something else, like a fist. (Thus it's more Smashing than Energy)


 

Posted

How about an Illusion secondary? A few suggested powers would be:

- Spectral Wounds - A superior version of the Controller attack power. Like the Controller power, wounds inflicted heal back over time unless the enemy dies.

- Phantom Ally - A singular version of the Phantom Army power. This power lasts for a much shorter duration than the comparable Controller power, but can be used to absorb an alpha.

- Cataclysm - Unique power. Enemies within 12 feet envision a horrific event and take Illusionary damage. This power may also cause them to fall.

- Impede Visibility - A partial stealth toggle.

- Confound - An "anti-taunt aura". Lowers your threat rating for a while, making you less likely to pull aggro.

- Substantiate - Temporarily makes any Illusionary damage you do real and unable to heal back.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
Bow Manipulation

  1. Entangling Arrow (As Trick Arrow)
  2. Archer's Kick (Melee High Damage)
  3. Build Up
  4. Ice Arrow (As Trick Arrow)
  5. Focused Accuracy (As targeting drone)
  6. Sleep Gas Arrow (Sleep)
  7. Archer's Roundhouse (Melee Superior Damage)
  8. Oil Slick Arrow (As Trick Arrow)
  9. Archer's Spin Kick (PBAoE; High )
Interesting take on it, I take it the kicks are basically renamed Martial Art attacks with a new animation that does it while holding a bow? Personally I'd replace OSA with Glue Arrow, either way the power will need to be seriously nerfed from the original version and I think a nerfed Glue Arrow will be more useful to a Blaster than a nerfed OSA, plus it reinforces the "defensive debuffs plus melee attacks" theme that the set has going for it. I still don't like the idea of a set with Build Up and Focused Accuracy but I've already said that once this thread .

The primary problem with this set (which is the same for any TA based set trying to incorporate melee attacks). Is that it looks damn stupid for anyone who isn't an Archer. Hi, I'm going to run up to you, pull out a bow and then KICK YOU IN THE FACE! The optimal solution is to apply the Brawl approach and to make the kicks play different animations depending on stance but this means twice as many animations but the devs are normally reluctant to do that. The simple solution is to have the kick animations put the bow away before activating. Sure it's a bit annoying for Archers but it means that non-Archers look a lot more sensible (only pulling out the bow for powers that actually use it).


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
How about an Illusion secondary? A few suggested powers would be:
I hadn't included Illusion because technically I categorize it under Energy (since there is no "Energy Control", Gravity yes, but see how I linked Gravity, Kinetics and Super Strength) but I do like your ideas. Particularly the Cataclysm. Like an AoE Spectral Wounds. I could see an animation of like the whole floor collapsing and everyone tumbling into a pool of lava, and then it fades and everything's back to normal.

If we ever get a Light Blast, then I would like to see Light, Illusions and such all matched up with each other. Although, I suppose technically Light is a form of Radiation. I've found Illusions makes a good conceptual match with Rad Emission if you use a custom color scheme.


 

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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
Dark Manipulation - Again, Blasters would have to get Dark Blast, and there has been some mention that the devs might not be open to Blasters getting -Acc as a secondary effect. The effect could be changed to something else, though, perhaps Fear or an Immobilize. (Or even -perception, and a second Blaster Secondary with a stealth power might be interesting)
Personally I'd be more concerned about the AoE controls in Dark Blast than the -to hit. Sure the -to hit is nice but I don't think it's game breaking for a Blaster. That being said Dark Blast is a pretty low damage set for a blaster so either way I'm betting it won't get ported directly to blasters.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
The simple solution is to have the kick animations put the bow away before activating. Sure it's a bit annoying for Archers but it means that non-Archers look a lot more sensible (only pulling out the bow for powers that actually use it).
One potential solution, since we now have the capability to "lock" power sets depending on which others you pick, is to make it so Bow Manipulation is only unlocked if you choose Archery, and then if you pick anything else, you get the same set with only the Martial Arts attacks. However, the devs are probably not going to be likely to do this, since it means creating two identical power sets, probably three or four, if you include Assault Rifle and Dual Pistols as well, all of which will have to be maintained and kept identical.

Plus, while it may be stupid to pull out the bow to kick, it IS required to fire off the Trick Arrow powers fired from the bow. So perhaps a better solution would be for the melee attacks to USE the bow in some way, perhaps even combining use of the bow as a club with a kick in the same animation.

Using the same idea for Dual Pistols or Assault Rifle would be a little more awkward, since in that case the non-attack effects would NOT be generated by the rifle/guns. At least if you just used standard martial arts attacks, you would only have to redraw the gun after you made the melee attack. The melee attack itself would not draw a weapon of its own.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Personally I'd be more concerned about the AoE controls in Dark Blast than the -to hit. Sure the -to hit is nice but I don't think it's game breaking for a Blaster.
Sonic has some pretty powerful control effects, and it doesn't seem to be overpowered on Blasters because of that. In fact, the set is considered a better match for Defenders and Corruptors because its secondary effect allows them to boost their low damage, just as Dark would let Blasters supplement their low defenses.

Quote:
That being said Dark Blast is a pretty low damage set for a blaster so either way I'm betting it won't get ported directly to blasters.
I don't think there is any set that won't be "ported" in some form. That is contrary to the concept of Proliferation, and tends to lead to player complaints. However, I suspect that sets like Dark Blast for Blasters and Ice Armor for Brutes will have their secondary effect changed to overcome these problems. It's entirely possible Dark Blast will work out just fine for Blasters and testing will show that the tweaks won't be needed.

Note also that Psi Blast isn't particularly strong for Defenders, but it IS for Blasters. To the point where it was nerfed from it's original "port". There's no reason why Dark Blast couldn't gain an Aim power just as Psi Blast did. This would both reduce its AoE reliance and increase its damage, and provide additional options for the Dark Secondary. (Again, as with Psi Blast)


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
Plus, while it may be stupid to pull out the bow to kick, it IS required to fire off the Trick Arrow powers fired from the bow. So perhaps a better solution would be for the melee attacks to USE the bow in some way, perhaps even combining use of the bow as a club with a kick in the same animation.
I'm not sure how practical this would be form an animation viewpoint. Take a look at the selection of in game bows (here). The wide variety of shapes and sizes would make a clubbing animation very difficult to do in a way that looks good with all of them. You'd need to have the character hold the bow at the same point and the only place that's the same on all of them is the grip. Trying to hit someone with a bow while holding it at the center would look very clumsy.


 

Posted

Was personally very disappointed to see that Blasters did not get a new secondary to go along with Dual Pistols. I was hoping for a "natural" KungFu type secondary, but anything would have been nice.