Things that are more difficult redside, and hence more fun.
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-02-10 13:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Do you have actual proof of this that you can properly cite, or are you just having "femal intuition"?
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's covered by deserting from the Praetorian Police or betraying the Resistance before you leave Praetoria
 |
Quote:
It's better than male intuition, but not in a sexist way! |
Originally Posted by Mylia
Do you have actual proof of this that you can properly cite, or are you just having "femal intuition"?
|
Quote:
Even if that was true (and it's not, see below) then there have to be compelling reasons to do either of those things. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's covered by deserting from the Praetorian Police or betraying the Resistance before you leave Praetoria
|
Compelling reasons that arise from a moral dilemma with meaningful choices. For a meaningful dilemma to exist, neither side can be pure. Which means there has to be a big fat grey area.
Now, since we've ALSO been told that you'll be given several points in those first 20 levels to make some moral choices, it can't just be "jump ship to the other side at the end". There has to be a spiral, a slippery slope, a way for someone to slide towards one side or the other, from both camps, all the way down one of those two paths, starting from a neutral position.
That necessitates that neither side be 100% good or evil.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
Quote:
But Tyrant is the bad guy - confrimed by the devs - you can't spin it any other way |
Originally Posted by Smurch
Even if that was true (and it's not, see below) then there have to be compelling reasons to do either of those things.
Compelling reasons that arise from a moral dilemma with meaningful choices. For a meaningful dilemma to exist, neither side can be pure. Which means there has to be a big fat grey area. Now, since we've ALSO been told that you'll be given several points in those first 20 levels to make some moral choices, it can't just be "jump ship to the other side at the end". There has to be a spiral, a slippery slope, a way for someone to slide towards one side or the other, from both camps, all the way down one of those two paths, starting from a neutral position. That necessitates that neither side be 100% good or evil. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
This would be the "I give up" point in the conversation...|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But Tyrant is the bad guy - confrimed by the devs - you can't spin it any other way
|
No one's arguing that he's the ANTAGONIST of the story. We're arguing whether it's clear cut "I'm going to punch babies, lololololololololololololllllll!"
... Which is how it feels like you want it to be sold.
Quote:
Mostly female intuition - it's never let me down yet |
Originally Posted by Mylia
Do you have actual proof of this that you can properly cite, or are you just having "femal intuition"?
|
But also, there's plenty from the Hero Con panels to show that Tyrant is the bad guy
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
yeah everyone has given up it seems trying to have a meaning conversation with GG on this topic. You would have a more meaningful discussion about the moral ambiguity that should be in GR with a wall.
|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
This would be the "I give up" point in the conversation...
No one's arguing that he's the ANTAGONIST of the story. We're arguing whether it's clear cut "I'm going to punch babies, lololololololololololololllllll!" ... Which is how it feels like you want it to be sold. |
Quote:
I never asked about Tyrant being "evil" as you say he is. Also taking female intuition = throwing it out the window. It is not based on any real facts shown yet.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Mostly female intuition - it's never let me down yet
But also, there's plenty from the Hero Con panels to show that Tyrant is the bad guy |
Quote:
We all know your opinion on this by now, especially since you simply won't shut up about it even in threads that have nothing whatsoever to do with it. However, we all saw the Herocon videos. We don't agree with your conclusions. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But Tyrant is the bad guy - confrimed by the devs - you can't spin it any other way
|
There is just no way the devs are going to paint an entire expansion about the morally grey line between heroism and villainy in stark black and white. That would miss the entire point of their own expansion.
I believe that Cole has some good AND bad elements. I can read his biography here: http://www.cityofheroes.com/goingrog...yrant_bio.html and see why there might be a resistance movement, but I can also see why there would be a loyalist movement. The line isn't that clear. There's a grey area. Cole is NOT Recluse. Not by a mile.
Really, Praetoria brings up the question of "Is freedom worth sacrificing security?". That's a question we're struggling with right here in the USA right now. It's a tricky question by all accounts, since we can't seem to agree where that line should be drawn. Is it worth destroying a system that works, that has a happy, healthy, well-educated populace who by and large are thrilled with their current government just to offer the freedom to choose? How valuable is freedom? Is it worth sacrificing everything for? How valuable is security? Is it worth sacrificing freedom and even life and limb for a few to keep the many happy?
That's a tricky question and one that can be explored through some pretty difficult moral choices. And thats absolutely what Going Rogue should be... no NEEDS to be.. about.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
Quote:
Facts and GG don't usually get along terribly well.
|
Originally Posted by Mylia
I never asked about Tyrant being "evil" as you say he is. Also taking female intuition = throwing it out the window. It is not based on any real facts shown yet.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
Quote:
No, the 1-20 content is to take you from the utopia to the nightmare - if Tyrant is seen ordering his minions to increase production of moustache wax in the tutorial, then there's no "learning curve" to the story - it'd be too similar to CoV.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
This would be the "I give up" point in the conversation...
No one's arguing that he's the ANTAGONIST of the story. We're arguing whether it's clear cut "I'm going to punch babies, lololololololololololololllllll!" ... Which is how it feels like you want it to be sold. |
Like I said earlier, the Syndicate are the perfect game mechanic to draw loyalist players into the lies of Tyrant's state - you'll get used to dealing with criminals and "protecting" the people of Praetoria, but you'll also be exposed in stages to the truth about Tyrant via missions and interaction with the Resistance, until you reach the point where you discover that, for no logical reason, Tyrant had his tower constructed with air ducts that were wide enough for people to crawl through.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
The Jeffries tubes of ebil! |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
until you reach the point where you discover that, for no logical reason, Tyrant had his tower constructed with air ducts that were wide enough for people to crawl through.
|
Quote:
The problem folks are having is, Going Rogue is supposed to be the Grey side. Heck, they even described it as such in Branforth the Seer's letter from the Omega Capsule. (Make you choice: red blue or gray, choose who to spurn and who obey) Unfortunately, what you're describing throws all of that out, in favor for more of the same very clearly defined Black and White we've had since the beginning.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, the 1-20 content is to take you from the utopia to the nightmare - if Tyrant is seen ordering his minions to increase production of moustache wax in the tutorial, then there's no "learning curve" to the story - it'd be too similar to CoV.
Like I said earlier, the Syndicate are the perfect game mechanic to draw loyalist players into the lies of Tyrant's state - you'll get used to dealing with criminals and "protecting" the people of Praetoria, but you'll also be exposed in stages to the truth about Tyrant via missions and interaction with the Resistance, until you reach the point where you discover that, for no logical reason, Tyrant had his tower constructed with air ducts that were wide enough for people to crawl through. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Ok, here's a quick recap:
- The Resistance tagline is "those who can see past the facade".
- Joining the Resistance is the career path that leads you to becoming a Hero.
- Joining the Praetorian Police is the career path that leads you to becoming a Villain.
- 90% of superpowered people "disappear" in Praetoria - and if their families ask questions, they "disappear" too.
- Chimera is head of the secret police, and is responsible for signing the paperwork that makes them "disappear".
- The other 10% are those who "survive the indoctrination program" to join the Powers Division.
- John Hegner, the main writer for Praetoria, has said the missions ask how much you're willing to do for "security" - starting off small, but then snowballing until you should start to feel uncomfortable with what you're being asked to do.
- He's also described Tyrant's government as a "totalitarian regime".
- And refered to Mother Mayhem's Seers as "her thought police watching every street corner".
- Hero 1, (Joe Morrissey), the lead writer, has said "Emperor Cole is an actual tyrant, and he's doing things to humanity and the freedoms that we're losing because of this".
- He also said "the real threat is not the Resistance, it's the Praetorian Police Department, and Clockwork and the Seers and the Praetorian Guard".
- Although the Powers Divison "probably murder more people than those four combined", according to John Hegner.
- Some inspiration for Praetoria came from the novels "1984" and "Brave New World".
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
You're right. All of the evidence is pointing to Going Rogue being a complete waste of time. May as well give Recluse the starring role rather than re-image Tyrant. And with the time and resources saved, maybe we could get a conclusion on the Coming Storm story line.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Ok, here's a quick recap:
|
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
Sums it up quite nicely if they do go through with this. The truly would of dropped the ball, and would probably have a few people angry; including me.
|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
You're right. All of the evidence is pointing to Going Rogue being a complete waste of time. May as well give Recluse the starring role rather than re-image Tyrant. And with the time and resources saved, maybe we could get a conclusion on the Coming Storm story line.
|
I've no right to feeling "betrayed", because GG's presenting evidence that we've all had from the beginning. If it turns out to really be that way, though... I'll still like the content, but it won't be my wildest dreams... 
Always knew that people "disappear", but the discussion it prompted* was so much fun!
-Sigh- All right, double G. I'm tossing in my cards. Evidence indicates that you're right, and that I was seeing things that weren't there.
*Would you kill x many random people, if you knew it would prevent all crime in the city?
Quote:
Only if you're one of those people who wish the Death Star plans had never been stolen, or that Princess Leia had said where the Rebel base was |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
You're right. All of the evidence is pointing to Going Rogue being a complete waste of time.
|
Quote:
| May as well give Recluse the starring role rather than re-image Tyrant. |
Quote:
| And with the time and resources saved, maybe we could get a conclusion on the Coming Storm story line. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Mender Silos is either lying about who he is but sincerely is trying to undo his own mistakes and save the world OR he's lying about who he is and it's all just a big you-know-who plot. Either way, there's not likely to be much real gray area there.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Even if Mender Silos turns out to be not so morally gray?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
Quote:
If that's all true, then yeah, it's going to be a huge opportunity missed. An entire expansion about blurring the line between hero and villain can't have black and white sides and do what it intends to do.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
-Sigh- All right, double G. I'm tossing in my cards. Evidence indicates that you're right, and that I was seeing things that weren't there.
|
Eh, it still means I can actually play a Hero AT but I won't need to run the lousy blueside content. I can, instead, bring the hero AT over to Redside which is more challenging, and thus more fun.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
Quote:
But there's still huge scope for morally challenging decision making inside the framework of Tyrant = evil, Resistance = good.|
Originally Posted by Mylia
Sums it up quite nicely if they do go through with this. The truly would of dropped the ball, and would probably have a few people angry; including me.
|
If you use cold logic instead of compassion, then a lot of the loyalist mission will become quite justifiable for sure.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Because the only options are Mother Theresa and Hitler. Period. No Exceptions.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Only if you're one of those people who wish the Death Star plans had never been stolen, or that princess Leia had said where the Rebel base was
|
Quote:
| Tyrant is creepier - he started off with good intentions - and he might still almost half believe he's still doing the right thing - but Recluse has always been one of the world's leading importers of moustache wax. |
Quote:
|
Even if Mender Silos turns out to be not so morally gray?
|
However, Going Rogue was presented as a Heroes 'fall from grace'. It's an epic idea, at it's core. People that have dedicated themselves to the idea of Justice struggling with where the line should be drawn. Too much and you're oppressing the people and crushing freedom. Too little and you're protecting criminals and promoting anarchy.
Going Rogue could have had immersive and thought provoking content. It could have secured it's place in gaming HISTORY by being the first game with a subtle and innovative moral choice system. It could have had unique and complex stars. Instead, it looks like we're getting more of the same Black and White we've had since day one, a side switching that makes as much in-game sense as Powerset Proliferation, and Recluse 2.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
I wasn't being totally serious |
Originally Posted by Smurch
Mender Silos is either lying about who he is but sincerely is trying to undo his own mistakes and save the world OR he's lying about who he is and it's all just a big you-know-who plot. Either way, there's not likely to be much real gray area there.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
No...not at all if they paint it black and while and you as you said "cold logic instead of compassion" then it is still black and white. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But there's still huge scope for morally challenging decision making inside the framework of Tyrant = evil, Resistance = good.
If you use cold logic instead of compassion, then a lot of the loyalist mission will become quite justifiable for sure. |
Me I would go more on the route of the Comedian...help save the world from its own self.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork