Basically a request for tier 10+ powers. Yes, I've heard it before and actually still get behind it to a degree. I've always wanted a ranged katana air shockwave-slash attack for my kat/SR (like Focus From Claws) and a ST 'charged claw uppercut' attack on my Elec/Regen to round out his single target attacks.
The place I think would be the problem is adding extra powers to defensive and buff sets. Usually they're balanced with all the powers of the set in mind. Meaning, whatever the set is capable of is primarily what they adjust to. So what would they do for those sets? What could they add to SRs that wouldn't break its balance?
How about rather than a request for Tier 10+ powers, we look at it as more filler powers in the Tier 3-7 ranges?
That I could get behind.
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Yep, that's more how I envisioned it - a couple extra powers, of about the same effectiveness as you'd get from an Epic Power Pool, plugged into the set at the mid-levels as you describe.|
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
How about rather than a request for Tier 10+ powers, we look at it as more filler powers in the Tier 3-7 ranges?
That I could get behind. |
Like Khelds, you would have to select from two power choices at certain levels, then later levels you could maybe go back and pick of some of the powers you skipped on. Functionally, it's not very different that getting Epic Powers, but would give a little more variation at earlier levels and, best of all, would allow you to remain in theme while filling out your character.
Some Super concepts (like the Hulk) just work better when you think of the all the abilities deriving from more or less a singular ability, such as Super Strength.
You completely skipped the other issue I mentioned.
What do you add to Super Reflexes? Adding more defense/resist or regen/heal alters the effectiveness all the other powers in the set and completely changes the balance of the set as a whole.
What do you add to Force Fields? Or Control Sets, for that matter.
The idea may work for attack sets (because adding more attacks doesn't necessarily boost the damage of the entire set) but how does this work for every other type of set?
how about only add extra powers to offensive sets? things like buff sets, defensive sets could not have extras.
however i'm not too keen on this idea tbh, would be nice to have more variation in sets but not sure what the best way to implement that outside of animations and colour would be
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While I agree with your general sentiment, I think Force Fields hurts somewhat for what it provides the team ("I can give you defense, and... defense, and... more defense, and... I suppose I can knock guys around a bit") -- even Sonic Resonance provides both resistance buffs and debuffs. Control sets in general (particularly Controllers) would benefit from some attack powers, similar to Lift or Propel.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
What do you add to Force Fields? Or Control Sets, for that matter.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Okay, so long as we're moving in the right direction with the discussion. The OP and thread title says 'extra powers in primary/secondary' not 'just offensive sets'. I'm just trying to help drive the discussion.|
Originally Posted by NeonPower
how about only add extra powers to offensive sets? things like buff sets, defensive sets could not have extras.
however i'm not too keen on this idea tbh, would be nice to have more variation in sets but not sure what the best way to implement that outside of animations and colour would be |
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
While I agree with your general sentiment, I think Force Fields hurts somewhat for what it provides the team ("I can give you defense, and... defense, and... more defense, and... I suppose I can knock guys around a bit") -- even Sonic Resonance provides both resistance buffs and debuffs. Control sets in general (particularly Controllers) would benefit from some attack powers, similar to Lift or Propel.
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Yes, Dominators wouldn't really benefit from attacks in their control sets, but Controllers certainly would.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Look at a set, think of "what's missing", what might have to be filled with a PP but staying in theme, then plug in a couple powers. You could probably get really out there while staying largely in theme.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Okay, so long as we're moving in the right direction with the discussion. The OP and thread title says 'extra powers in primary/secondary' not 'just offensive sets'. I'm just trying to help drive the discussion.
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You mentioned Super Reflexes:
An Accuracy Boost toggle would work: You've become so fast that, with effort, you can get 'the jump' on foes, making them easier to hit.
How about really out there but still in theme - a minor heal: call it 'Flesh Wounds' -- You are injured, but your reflexes result in less-critical muscle being affected. You're not as hurt as originally thought. It's just a flesh wound
Maybe not the best examples, but I was thinking off the cuff, but it sure seems that some sort of utility 'fill out' power(s) could thematicall fit in just about every Primary & Secondary.
I like the Acc boost for Super Reflexes. A self-heal might be a bit TOO good in SR, but let's say...
-ACC boost (Your super-dodging translates into hitting more quickly and thus more accuracy)
-Rapid Strike (An improved version of the Super Speed Flurry attack. Putting one or two attack powers in each Defense set would make sense.)
-Placate (for Brutes and Scrappers) or Lucky (for Stalkers)
Adding an attack to each armor set would work well. Fire would get something like Flares, Ninjutsu would get Shuriken, Regen could have some sort of melee attack that damages both you and the opponent. Just make sure it's all attacks that none of the primaries have.
As for attacks in control sets... No, we don't want more attacks in control sets, we want more varied controls. Also, give every control set (save Mind) the option for a pet buff power similar to the MM pet buff powers. Mind, meanwhile, would have an AoE toggle that gives all Enemies +25% to Hit and all allies +25% defense. Normally, it'd come out as a wash, but when foes are confused, it would make them hit each other with greater frequency. Might be a bit clunky, but something along the lines of "Confused foes get bonus acc/dam"
There's plenty of design space to add more powers to sets. The real catch is... It's a LOT of work. You'd need to add 3 powers to EVERY set, pretty much, to keep it balanced, and you'd need to carefully balance every last one of them. It would be immensely cool, but I don't see it ever happening.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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Yes, this is the kinds of stuff I'm thinking of, and it would be great if implemented - alas, you're right. It is ALOT of work, and there are things most players want more. Still, just about all players would like to 'fill out' their toon with effects that are bit 'different' than the main focus of the Power. Currently we do it with Power Pools. Being able to stay in theme while doing so would be quite welcome, though...
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Originally Posted by CapnGeist
I like the Acc boost for Super Reflexes. A self-heal might be a bit TOO good in SR, but let's say...
-ACC boost (Your super-dodging translates into hitting more quickly and thus more accuracy) -Rapid Strike (An improved version of the Super Speed Flurry attack. Putting one or two attack powers in each Defense set would make sense.) -Placate (for Brutes and Scrappers) or Lucky (for Stalkers) Adding an attack to each armor set would work well. Fire would get something like Flares, Ninjutsu would get Shuriken, Regen could have some sort of melee attack that damages both you and the opponent. Just make sure it's all attacks that none of the primaries have. As for attacks in control sets... No, we don't want more attacks in control sets, we want more varied controls. Also, give every control set (save Mind) the option for a pet buff power similar to the MM pet buff powers. Mind, meanwhile, would have an AoE toggle that gives all Enemies +25% to Hit and all allies +25% defense. Normally, it'd come out as a wash, but when foes are confused, it would make them hit each other with greater frequency. Might be a bit clunky, but something along the lines of "Confused foes get bonus acc/dam" There's plenty of design space to add more powers to sets. The real catch is... It's a LOT of work. You'd need to add 3 powers to EVERY set, pretty much, to keep it balanced, and you'd need to carefully balance every last one of them. It would be immensely cool, but I don't see it ever happening. |
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I wouldn't expect three powers added to every set in one Issue, but instead to trickle in over time and multiple Issues, like how long it took for Scrappers to get the same number of APPs as other ATs...er, nevermind. |
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
There's plenty of design space to add more powers to sets. The real catch is... It's a LOT of work. You'd need to add 3 powers to EVERY set, pretty much, to keep it balanced, and you'd need to carefully balance every last one of them. It would be immensely cool, but I don't see it ever happening.
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The problem is if you add three new powers to, say, SR, then you're suddenly making SR stronger while not making any of the other sets stronger. You've got to do a pretty sizable chunk at a time.
What would be most plausible would be to buff a set TYPE at a time. Say in one issue add some new powers to all Melee or all Defense sets (the most populace sets, having 4 ATs that use them), then Buff/Debuff sets, and so on..
Hmm, if you want to hit every AT once... You need to go...
Melee or Defense
Buff/Debuff
Manipulation
Assault
That would keep the ATs balanced and let things come out in waves. Going for Defense sets, then Buff sets would only leave Blasters and Doms out in the cold a bit longer, and it would allow the greatest affect over the minimal number of sets.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
Extra powers? No. The game is balanced around the T9 system and it works fine.
However, I would support *alternative* powers. Similar to VEATs, except instead of picking a *path* you pick 1 out of 2 powers each Tier.
ie; Tier 1 Forcefields would be a choice between:
PFF or *Some other alt power*
I'd link the two powers in theme, maybe an opposite theme going where possible so it might end up looking like:
PFF or Team PFF - Gives your allies the PFF buff (Can't attack included) but makes your resistance and def -1000%. Only works in a short toggle range and drains a massive amount of end.
Now, I realize there are probably a million things wrong with that power, I'm not fussed, I'm not pushing that power, I'm pushing the idea of an alternative. Shield Charge might have an opposite, Shield Intercept, where you SC TP to the ally, and for the next 5 seconds all attacks against them hit you instead.
Worth some thought anyway.
Probably been suggested more than once, but can't find it...
Simply enough, a few extra power choices at certain levels in our primary/secondary, similiar to how Kheldians have more than 9/9. (they have 14/12 actually - doesn't have to be that much)
To what purpose? To "fill out' your character in the same way you select powers from APPs/EPPs, but allowing you to remain in theme.
Example: I have a SS/WP Brute (really original, I know, but love her). I really wanted to stay only within a super strength theme, but the Extra Effectives via AoE & Ranged attacks provided by Mu Mastery was just too much to pass up. (my second build it still total SS, for thematic reasons, but it's not as effective).
Ideally, if Super Strength provided an Extra Ranged Attack (Super Breath? Directional Shockwave, as I've seen the Hulk do?) and an Extra AoE (maybe something similiar to Hand Clap, but causing Head Splitting Sonic Damage [and no KB haha])
With two extra powers like that, I would haven't gotten Mu Master at all. My Brute would just Be STRONG, as I really wanted.
So, that's my suggestion, a few extra 'fill out' powers per Pri/Sec. Say, 11/11. Don't really expect this to come to fruitition, but anyway, do you think it's a good idea?