My reaction to the archetype is similar to the OP's.
When I started the game, I was eager to try out some of the powersets tanks had that their scrapper brethren lacked. (i.e. stone, super strength, ice powers) While I liked the powers, I missed being able to dish out the heavy damage.
In addition, I solo and tanks are at their best on teams.
End result: I concluded that not every archetype is suited to every player and that I was not a "tank person." I deleted my tanks and tried the powers out on brutes. Even though I'm still not 100% comfortable being a baddie, I really enjoy the capabilities of brutes. Fortunately, Going Rogue will soon allow me to have the best of both worlds in terms of powers and hero/villain choice.
I still haven't written off tanks. In the back of my mind are possibilities for "scranker" builds that I might enjoy. In particular, shields and/or willpower look promising.
All in all, I guess that's one of the strengths of the game... the different archetypes all provide different capabilities that appeal to players' different personalities.
So I salute tankers for doing a tough job, but I'm not quite ready to join your ranks. (at least, not yet)
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Well, that explains things.|
Originally Posted by NuclearMedicine
I always though of my Tanks as more like this:
 |
I was wondering how I managed to drool in my own ear.
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You may have still managed to...I just try to keep the cubs (squishies) in line and presentable (battle ready/alive).
Tanker Tuesdays: Meet in King's Row by IP Gate 6pm PT9pm ET.
1st Tuesday on Champion, 2nd Tuesday on Justice
3rd Tuesdays (Odd months) Freedom, (Even months) Virtue, 4th Tuesday, Tour, Server TBA
Brutal Thrashing Thursdays: Justice (ask Papa Slade when),meet in RWZ 6pm PT9pm ET.
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Very much doubt this will happen. SR on a tank, with the higher defense numbers tanks get, will be able to softcap just with the powers in the set, no IOs required at all. | There have been times I wanted to see what Tankers could do with Super Reflexes, and I do think with Proliferation they should get it, or a variation at least. |
I'm basing this on how incredibly easy it is to softcap Shield Defense tank, which has 15% base defense in the toggles. If SR follows the same pattern, you will get 15% in SR toggles, and 10% from the passives. That's 25% defense completely unslotted.
I base my passive guess here on a comparison between Invuln for Tanks and Scrappers/Brutes. Tanks get 10% while Scrappers and Brutes get 7.5%. Since SR's passives are 7.5% as well, it is reasonable to assume that they would be 10% on tanks.
Slotted, tanker SR would be getting 38.75% from the toggles alone. 15.5% from the passives after slotting. That's over 54% defense from the powers within the set with just SOs. I seriously doubt the devs will give us a powerset that can do that with no outside additions.
Since Weave would not be required, nor a Steadfast Res/Def, the Fighting pool would be completely unnecessary, leaving room to take Medicine. Also, without having to slot attacks with sets that add defense, you can slot with sets that provide Psi defense. That would plug SR's two biggest holes: lack of a healing power, and lack of defense to non-positional Psi attacks. And since non-positional Psi attacks are pretty rare through most of the game, you could skip that part and have a damn near unkillable tank slotted with SOs or basic IOs.
Combined with a set like Super Strength that would get overpowered in a hurry. (Dark Melee would even avoid having to take the Medicine pool)
If SR were watered down to not be overpowered on a tank people would scream bloody murder that its not on par with Shield Defense's defense numbers. The dev's options here are A) water it down and piss a lot of people off by doing so, or B) Not give it to tanks at all and not have anyone angrier than they may already be. It makes way more sense from a business standpoint to go with option B.
Edit, my math is based on 55% enhancement of defense in all powers, which is 3 SOs worth. You can check it for yourself on a calculator if you have one laying around.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I think you haven't explored the AT enough.|
Originally Posted by Nova Knight
My reaction to the archetype is similar to the OP's.
When I started the game, I was eager to try out some of the powersets tanks had that their scrapper brethren lacked. (i.e. stone, super strength, ice powers) While I liked the powers, I missed being able to dish out the heavy damage. In addition, I solo and tanks are at their best on teams. End result: I concluded that not every archetype is suited to every player and that I was not a "tank person." I deleted my tanks and tried the powers out on brutes. Even though I'm still not 100% comfortable being a baddie, I really enjoy the capabilities of brutes. Fortunately, Going Rogue will soon allow me to have the best of both worlds in terms of powers and hero/villain choice. I still haven't written off tanks. In the back of my mind are possibilities for "scranker" builds that I might enjoy. In particular, shields and/or willpower look promising. All in all, I guess that's one of the strengths of the game... the different archetypes all provide different capabilities that appeal to players' different personalities. So I salute tankers for doing a tough job, but I'm not quite ready to join your ranks. (at least, not yet) |
During the beta for I16, I made an ice/ElM tank, and solod with decent speed at +1/x8 against CoT who are not ideal for an icer, using only SOs.
The right combination of primary/secondary combined with the right difficulty setting (+3/4x1/2/3 with bosses for single target specialists, +1/2/3x8 without bosses for AoE monsters) can make soloing fun and while you can also do this on an expensively built scrapper, you can do it on a much more cheaply built tank.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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I wonder how a tanker that completely lacked an aggro aura, and that had to rely solely on Taunt and Gauntlet, would play. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If SR were watered down to not be overpowered on a tank people would scream bloody murder that its not on par with Shield Defense's defense numbers. The dev's options here are A) water it down and piss a lot of people off by doing so,
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Wait .... there's always Willpower....
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"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
I wonder how a tanker that completely lacked an aggro aura, and that had to rely solely on Taunt and Gauntlet, would play.
Wait .... there's always Willpower.... |
They'd get the brute version. Brute SR has a slightly different power order and Evasion has a taunt component. They switched the positions of Evasion and Quickness. They probably should have put scrapper SR in that order as well, but it's too late for that now.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You're probably right. Although I've never gotten a character higher than around 20, I haven't completely written off the archetype. I'm still pondering various powerset combos that lend themselves to solo play. I suspect I'll be experimenting off-and-on until I find the combination and setting that feels right for me. Never tried the combo you mentioned above (ice/ElM), so I might tackle that if I decide to delete one of my existing characters.
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
I think you haven't explored the AT enough.
During the beta for I16, I made an ice/ElM tank, and solod with decent speed at +1/x8 against CoT who are not ideal for an icer, using only SOs. The right combination of primary/secondary combined with the right difficulty setting (+3/4x1/2/3 with bosses for single target specialists, +1/2/3x8 without bosses for AoE monsters) can make soloing fun and while you can also do this on an expensively built scrapper, you can do it on a much more cheaply built tank. |
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BrandX, you poor missguided soul.I give you a moment of silence for your lack of knowledge on Tankers.........|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Sounds like more of a damage issue than anything.
Blasters are lots of damage. Tankers are lots of defense and a little bit of damage (compared to say blasters, scrappers). Blasters & Scrappers walk into a crowd go click click boom and move on or die (scrappers less likely to die, blasters more likely to dish out a big higher damage at the cost of life) Tankers are a...walk in take a pounding, slowly beat doen the opponents. That's what I get from the OP's post. Which is pretty much true. :/ |
Anyhow, to the OP, Play a Fire/Fire Tanker, or a Elec/Elec Tanker, and you wont feel the sting so bad when it comes to Tankers.
From the Power Sets youv erased, and just didnt like, mainly because you wanna kill something, you definatly went the wrong way about it.Which is a missconception, even for Veteran Tankers, who belive in Being 2 mobs behind the other tanker that just wipes the floor of Baddies as it goes.
Id get bored too, and feel pretty week spamming jab, punch, and haymaker for several levels my self, especially if I didnt have a damaging Aura, or something else to help killing along at lower levels.
Both Tankers I suggested do good damage, in there own way, and offer plenty of AoE power, and even get a little early on compaired to the more popular WP/SS types of builds.
A pure Fire Tanker, can dish out decent damage at low levels, and towards the middle levels of there careers, they get 2 BUs that total a 180% damage boost to all your Fire Damage attacks, and Blazing Aura.
Not to mention at very early on, you can take Healing Flames, the best healing power in the entire game, because of its fast recharge, and Health recovery value.
Then a little further down the line, you get your higher up attacks, and no Tanker will compair with your damage.Youll feel like a Scrapper with more Health, and more Damage Resistance, and a bigger heal.
I often wonder if they will Nerf Fire/Fire Tank players, because the damage they can deliver is almost a crime.
Then youv got the pure Electrical Tanker build I mentioned.Its good Resistance, high Endurance Draining on the baddies, so they dont swing much after a couple hits, and Lightning Rod, Chain Induction, and Thunder Strike more then make up for any other Tankers lacking in the area of damage.
This build offers the best balanced tanker I can think of when it comes to overall capabilities, and damage, where as the pure Fire build is focus more on straight damage.Many people will dissagree with me on this build, and the pure Fire build, but I say let them.If they call these builds weak by any shape or form, reguardless if there long time Tank players or not, they have absolutly no clue about it, and should be avoided in any future postings on such power sets contained in this reply.
Thats not a Stab at the Tanker population, but it is a Fact, that people who play mainly Willpower/, and Invln/, and typically use Super Strength, or some other ST melee power, have no real experiance playing the more damaging/risk builds that me and other players like to play.Nore do they have the mind set for it.I just dont belive they should push others to not touch these sets, and allow them to make the choice of offensive or defensive on there own.
If any long time Tankers get offended by this, I apologize up front, but I wont retract the facts.
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I've been following this thread with interest since my experience with tankers mirrored the OP's. Anyway, Fire_Minded, your enthusiasm towards fire/fire tanks (here and in other posts) convinced me to try one myself.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Anyhow, to the OP, Play a Fire/Fire Tanker, or a Elec/Elec Tanker, and you wont feel the sting so bad when it comes to Tankers. A pure Fire Tanker, can dish out decent damage at low levels, and towards the middle levels of there careers, they get 2 BUs that total a 180% damage boost to all your Fire Damage attacks, and Blazing Aura. Not to mention at very early on, you can take Healing Flames, the best healing power in the entire game, because of its fast recharge, and Health recovery value. Then a little further down the line, you get your higher up attacks, and no Tanker will compair with your damage.Youll feel like a Scrapper with more Health, and more Damage Resistance, and a bigger heal. |
Still in the early stage (level 5), but it does seem promising. After 14 months of scrappers, blasters and, more recently, brutes, we'll see if I've found a tank that I can fully embrace. If not, then I'll try the ice/elec. melee combo that Minotaur recommended.
Thanks to everyone for the ongoing dialogue & debate on the boards. It's a good source of new ideas to try.
If no one has mentioned it yet, you might try hooking up with us at a Tanker Tuesday. TT's are a player run all Tanker teams event. We run missions, Task Forces and pretty much anything else the game has to offer. TT's are a great place to see different Tanker sets in action and ask questions (Not to mention, just the plain mayhemic fun of mob of Tanks demolishing the bad guys...).
The dates for TT are:
Champion Server (the Original TT) the 1st Tuesday of each month
and
Justice (TTJ) the 2nd Tuesday of each month (on the 9th this month with a Fire Tank theme)
In March TT will be reloading to servers we hit during the TT Tour. Here's the complete schedule for March TT's:
1st Tues Champion
2nd Tues Justice
3rd Tues Guardian
4th Tues Triumph
5th Tues Victory
Link to the thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com//showthread.php?t=207776
Have fun with your new Tank! Hope to see you at a TT!
Tanker Tuesdays: Meet in King's Row by IP Gate 6pm PT9pm ET.
1st Tuesday on Champion, 2nd Tuesday on Justice
3rd Tuesdays (Odd months) Freedom, (Even months) Virtue, 4th Tuesday, Tour, Server TBA
Brutal Thrashing Thursdays: Justice (ask Papa Slade when),meet in RWZ 6pm PT9pm ET.
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You clearly haven't been here long enough to remember this but:| I often wonder if they will Nerf Fire/Fire Tank players, because the damage they can deliver is almost a crime. |
Burn didn't used to make enemies run away. Think about that for a second.
They would stay in the Burn patch and take all that damage, because Burn had no fear component. And Burn had no target cap, which was the same time that there was no agro cap or collision detection. That's what "dumpster diving" was. A Fire tank herding an entire zone into a dumpster and dropping a Burn patch, killing hundreds at once.
That tactic is one of the main reasons there is now an agro cap, and a target cap on AoEs. (Fireball was another)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I would second the recommendation to visit one of the Tanker Tuesday nights. Its a great chance to get to see up close how various powersets work, and to ask any questions you might have about things. We Tanker types are generally more than happy to expound upon the goodness of tanking.
As for finding Tankers boring, or slow, or lacking in damage, I suppose its just a matter of personal taste. Tankers do start out pretty slow and are heavy on the end usage. Most sets are loaded pretty heavily on the back end. Getting up to 20 or so can be difficult if you're not accustomed to how Tanker sets work, but once you get some Stamina going, and then get into your first SOs, things pick up in a hurry. If you can have a little patience, the payoff is absolutely worth it.
�Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.� ― John Wayne
�Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!� - George Carlin
You could just wait for GR and make a brute on hero side. Ultimate damage cap AND really good defenses. Your defensive numbers will be the same as a scrapper when ur not buffed, but on a team with defense or resistance buffs (brutes have the same resistance cap as tanks, after buffs) you will feel like a god. Brutes are like the genetic combination of a gazelle and a gorilla fused together... like a gazerilla! Or a Gorizelle! A fast levelling AT that deals tons of damage AND doesn't tend to die a lot.
(EDIT) When I say "Ultimate damage cap" I mean it... 300% when not buffed (most other ATs cap at 300% AFTER buffs, blaster's cap I think is like 450% after buffs), and after buffs you can hit 750% as a brute!!!!
This is my ideal vision of a tank...
This is the type of tank that I am...
This is what my Fire/Fire Tank does after entering a mob.
Its enough to make you put on shades.
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Yeah, I can use self destruct too |
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
This is what my Fire/Fire Tank does after entering a mob.
Its enough to make you put on shades. |
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Ouch!|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
Yeah, I can use self destruct too
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HARSH!LOL!
I too had a hard time with tanking at first. I can't tell you how many false starts (deleted) I had. Then an interesting thing happened: I got my first 50, and started a Kheldian. White Dwarf (lvl 20 Peacebringer power) basically gave me what I needed: a simplistic bare-bones tank. Teleport, Heal, Taunt, AoE, ST, high resists. It still took me a while to learn to use those tools, but having essentially instant access to a base tank was exactly what I needed. For the life of me I couldn't get the powers picked/slotted properly in a tank before that, to the point that I too thought: I am not a tanker-type. Lo-and-behold though, my Dwarf soon had me tanking in spite of myself. "lvl xx team lf tanker" "I can tank!" Soon after getting that PB to lvl 50 I dove into a pure tanker: Dark Armor/Fire/Fire whom I enjoy immensely As for the gorilla vs. gazelle thing: *shrugs* I set a pretty mean pace, and used to race fire/kin farmers till they stopped inviting me .
Since my first tank was a Fire/Fire I can't help but think of my tank as this....
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!