Persuade me to play any set OTHER than Dark Melee
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2010-01-23 24:55 in Scrappers
Quote:
Like you said, better AOE.|
Originally Posted by Motley_Cruel
I played DM for the first time after it got buffed back in issue whatever (was it 12?)
Anyway, since then I leveled a few characters with the set, and the more I played, the more I realized how ridiculously awesome it was. Not only does it have the potential for the highest DPS (due to having probably the best Build-up esque power) but it also has a strong end recovery power, Siphon Life (IMHO, one of the best attacks in the game), to-hit debuffs (including the awesome ToF), and is a relatively loose set (By 50, you only probably need S, SL, MG, SD. DC and ToF are usually optional) So as far as I can tell, the ONLY weakness DM has is the relative lack of AoE, which can be filled out with SD/APPs/PPPs (writing this from a brute perspective as well). In exchange for its AoE weakness, DM has crazy damage and is one of the most survivable sets. So as something of a min/maxer, explain to me why I would want to play any other set, other than simply for flavor? |
Yes, you can pick up some AOE in the Epics, to stack with the weak AOE of SD, but it's still relatively weak AOE output.
And on a one on one DPS route, isn't Claws and Dual Blades better, unless SD has cannon fodder to fuel Soul Drain?
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They probably are, but I was just talking about maximum potential.
The AoE part was confusing. By SD, I didn't mean soul drain, I meant Shield Defense. mah bad 
You do have a point. DM kicks alot of ***!
That being said. Stylistically you might wanna try something different?
I hate repeating sets and do so as little as possible.
Maybe cuz kat/wp>dm/wp?
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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That's why I'm posting this. I'm having a hard time finding a set which feels so perfect...
I really like fire, but its general lack of utility bums me out a little bit.
I like the speed and lightness of claws, but it just doesn't grab me as much.
Overall, the lack of a heal might be the biggest thing that kills my enjoyment, especially with secondaries without one. (and I generally don't have room for Aid Self)
combos that feel "perfect" to me or as close to possible as ive been able to find.
dm/inv
claw/sr
kat/wp
ma/da
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Cause DM is so overrated!!!
You don't need no stinkin heal!!!
Now persuade me to play one...
Thanks for some ideas. To be honest, I'm generally more of a Brute player, so while I'll try Kat/WP and MA/DA on scrappers, I've played a lot of SR (including with dm), and I'm not sure if claws is better for brutes or scrappers. Any other ideas?
Katana because it has good st and aoe and has a nice + defense power
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Dark/Shield Build Thread
I just sort of hate the feeling of looking at my HP go into the red and knowing I can't do anything about it besides soldier on and hope...
If Katana could be used with SD, I'd be much more inclined to use it. I just have a hard time using BS due to its general slowness/end heaviness. So tell me, what would be better, a Kat/Regen or a Kat/WP (For scrappers) Right now I have a claws/WP and a Kat/Regen, and I'm wondering if I'd enjoy them more if they were switched around.
Also, another quick question. On the surface, DB and Claws seem to be related in the way that Kat and BS are. (Light and fast vs. slower and heavier) How do the two sets compare in game? (Not much experience with high levels of either)
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Well, as a min/maxer, you really aren't trying to "play the game". Instead you are just trying to "statistically take the easiest route to defeat the game". The min/maxer challenge is in breaking the system by finding the weak point. Often this is determined mathematically by number crunching. I'm assuming that you did not data-mine the numbers to determine this yourself, so you really didn't even learn to "mini/max" the system. If this is the case, someone else mini/maxed and you just are using the resulting information to take the easy way through the game.|
Originally Posted by Motley_Cruel
So as something of a min/maxer, explain to me why I would want to play any other set, other than simply for flavor?
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You might only enjoy doing what you call playing by doing what you are calling min/max-ing. That's okay if that is the case, but the game and it's genre doesn't really make much of a difference. To put what I'm trying to say in perspective, I also do not think that players that are farming or power-leveling are playing the game. Also, when I'm working the market, I'm not playing the game.
To play a game involves the flavor - aka the genre. That is to say enjoying what you are doing because it is in that genre and is part of the spirit of the game.
This might seem harsh and confusing, but having a history playing RPG's (not to be confused with MMORPGs), which at this point seem to be called pen-and-paper or desktop RPGs, I have done quite a large amount of mini-maxing. I never went to a website to learn the tricks of how to find the best advantages in a game. I broke the games myself.
So the reason to give up on your statistically best set of powers and try another is to try to enjoy playing the actual game.
I can guarantee there are a whole lot of sets that are not the most mini-maxed, but I have great fun playing them. Yeah, even some that really numerically suck as regards to their calculated yield.
You answered your own question in your last sentence. "..one of the most survivable sets..."
You haven't even convinced yourself it's the best, so take the doubt and test it out.
Don't I know you???
I have a 50 dm/inv brute and hes pretty much damn near unstoppable.
Soul drain and dark consumption back a whallop when fury is boiling.
Unfortunately they're on much to long of a recharge to be considered AoE damage.
Still... they do give a noticable bump.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Motley Cruel, i'll chime in on a few of your questions.
--Overall, i'd suggest trying a Kat/wp. Katana feels much different than DM, in some ways feels even lighter and faster than Claws, and has a different style of proactive/reactive defense (DA and knockup/down rather than -tohit and a self-heal). It also has an easily attainable DPS chain of GD-GC-SD-GC, DA thrown in for flavor). I am nearly finished IOing and accolading mine, and it is a beast.
--DB and claws share some traits, but it doesn't feel as simple as fast/light vs. slow/heavy.
Claws feels more straightforward to me, with Focus able to perma-kd a single target, great single-target dmg in general, and your flavor of AOE nearly constantly available.
DB's progression feels more linear...i find myself playing with the 'baby combos' at lower levels, and waiting for the 'adult combos' (read: Attack Vitals) in the midlevels. It feels very 'nested', with what's nearly it's best single-target also it's best AOE.
---Consider, from a min/max perspective, Fire/Shield/Blaze. When i play mine, i feel like i'm holding the leash of a ravenous slavering beast that wants nothing more than to stuff more flesh into it's already overfull belly.
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Any one of half a dozen alts!
If you don't want to do without a heal, take a secondary that HAS a heal - Dark Armor, Electric Armor, Fiery Aura or Regeneration. Or take a secondary that really doesn't even want a heal - Willpower. Now yes, in all of these cases, you will still benefit from a heal in the primary. But you'd likely benefit MORE from defense, which is to say Katana or Broad Sword. Of those, Katana/Willpower is arguably both the easiest and the most survivable.
Or, go for maximum damage output in a more general sense. Not just DPS. We talk about DPS all the time, and it's one of the things we often maximize on our min/max builds. But it's also much less relevant to most of the game than AoE damage output, which is where Dark Melee falls behind. Fiery Melee is a good choice here, at least if you don't want to go all the way to "pure" AoE with something like Spines. Combine it with Shield Defense to boost the damage even higher, throw in Aid Self if you're really going to be pushing it (find room), and go to town.
So, uh, I guess I just recommended what Telperion recommended. Dittos!
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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Alt_oholic:
I think you're reading too much into what I meant. When I said "a bit of a min/maxer" that doesn't mean I don't play the game. I don't farm, I don't PL, and I only make characters based on concepts that I like. However, with power customization, basically any punchy colorful powerset can look like just about anything, so I was just trying to get an idea how other sets compare to DM. I'm writing this thread because I DON"T want to just play the same set, and I WANT to try something new. So before you start passing judgment as you so clearly are, it would be nice if you thought about what I'm writing and why I'm most likely writing it. But I respect your opinion anyway.
Invulnerability also has a heal and can be cheaply IO out to make the soft cap for defense.
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I agree, 100% on this speech, but theres only one problem.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
Well, as a min/maxer, you really aren't trying to "play the game". Instead you are just trying to "statistically take the easiest route to defeat the game". The min/maxer challenge is in breaking the system by finding the weak point. Often this is determined mathematically by number crunching. I'm assuming that you did not data-mine the numbers to determine this yourself, so you really didn't even learn to "mini/max" the system. If this is the case, someone else mini/maxed and you just are using the resulting information to take the easy way through the game.
You might only enjoy doing what you call playing by doing what you are calling min/max-ing. That's okay if that is the case, but the game and it's genre doesn't really make much of a difference. To put what I'm trying to say in perspective, I also do not think that players that are farming or power-leveling are playing the game. Also, when I'm working the market, I'm not playing the game. To play a game involves the flavor - aka the genre. That is to say enjoying what you are doing because it is in that genre and is part of the spirit of the game. This might seem harsh and confusing, but having a history playing RPG's (not to be confused with MMORPGs), which at this point seem to be called pen-and-paper or desktop RPGs, I have done quite a large amount of mini-maxing. I never went to a website to learn the tricks of how to find the best advantages in a game. I broke the games myself. So the reason to give up on your statistically best set of powers and try another is to try to enjoy playing the actual game. I can guarantee there are a whole lot of sets that are not the most mini-maxed, but I have great fun playing them. Yeah, even some that really numerically suck as regards to their calculated yield. |
Do you really think the OP cares?
Well, crap, now everyone thinks I'm hardcore Min/Maxer. I probably shouldn't have mentioned that in my OP, because everyone is misconstruing my meaning. I don't try to be a game breaker, and I don't only choose FOTM power combos. I play through the game for fun, and yes I "play" it by Alt_oholic's definition, and I'm not gonna start on argument on whether PLing and Farming count as "playing" because that's been overargued countless times. So just go ahead and ignore that part of the statement. I'd edit it out if possible.
Also, fallenz, would you happen to have a Softcap Inv. build you'd be willing to show me?
Oh, hooray, the editing window was still open.
There are threads here on the scrapper fourm that shows how you can did. I do not have Mids or anything like that to help you out. And do not worry about if others think you are a min/maxer. Just have fun playing the game as you want to. The folks in this fourm are helpful.
Thank you, Fallenz
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Quoting myself from an old post.|
Originally Posted by Motley_Cruel
Also, another quick question. On the surface, DB and Claws seem to be related in the way that Kat and BS are. (Light and fast vs. slower and heavier) How do the two sets compare in game? (Not much experience with high levels of either)
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| And Claws will further cement it's lead at 18. DB will come roaring back at 26 based on the attack and it's part of your best combo, and Claws finishes off nicely at 32. The one advantage that Claws has for me is if I want something done instantly, Claws makes that happen. DB has to go through a combo to do the same, or will have to do it in melee as were Claws does it at range. Using Shockwave with it's ranged, fast animating, and wide cone KB for an alpha strike is something you just simply can't get in DB. 1K Cuts is beautiful to look at, but speed isn't it's thing. |
Outside of those two, Kat is awesome just because it's so balanced of a set.
Apart from having siphon life (which is awesome), I find dark melee annoying to play for the lack of AoE. I like to hit build up, AoE, make a couple of follow up attacks and move on (preferably just hit build up and AoE and kill everything). Single targeting every minion in range is annoying as is lining up shadow maul. Yes, I know how to use shadow maul to catch 3+ targets. It's still a hassle.
If you're not focused on wittling down a big bag of hitpoints, dark melee seems inconvenient to play. All the other utility thing it does (endurance recovery, soul drain, fear) can all be substituted with smart slotting or use of pool powers if desired.
With that said, I really hope that dark melee becomes a FOTM favorite again. I'm a little worried about the recent spotlight cast on Fire/SD, so I'll take my scrapper and go play quietly in the corner over there while dark melee takes all the limelight.
I played DM for the first time after it got buffed back in issue whatever (was it 12?)
Anyway, since then I leveled a few characters with the set, and the more I played, the more I realized how ridiculously awesome it was. Not only does it have the potential for the highest DPS (due to having probably the best Build-up esque power) but it also has a strong end recovery power, Siphon Life (IMHO, one of the best attacks in the game), to-hit debuffs (including the awesome ToF), and is a relatively loose set (By 50, you only probably need S, SL, MG, SD. DC and ToF are usually optional) So as far as I can tell, the ONLY weakness DM has is the relative lack of AoE, which can be filled out with SD/APPs/PPPs (writing this from a brute perspective as well). In exchange for its AoE weakness, DM has crazy damage and is one of the most survivable sets. I generally play for concept, but I also enjoy not faceplanting, so can someone share some reasons why I would want to play any other set, other than simply for flavor?