Set Bonuses: Cover holes or boost strengths?


DumpleBerry

 

Posted

I was wondering about people's approach to set bonuses. In your experiences, is it your goal to use set bonuses to enhance strenghts you already have or to make up for abilities lacking in your AT/Powerset? For example, I've started a */Regeneration Scrapper and I'm looking ahead to set inventions. Is it overkill to slot all the +Regen, +Heal, +Recovery I can fit or maybe consider defense/resistance?

Thanks.


 

Posted

A lot of it depends on what holes and why.

I _always_ use IO's to cover a KB resist hole, because that's a fundamental imbalance in the game, in my opinion; it is entirely plausible in the late game to spend 75% of your time falling down or getting up.

The rest depends a lot on mechanics- the more Regen you have, the less adding Regen will help you. On the other hand, the more Defense you have [to a point] the more adding Defense helps you.

So in this specific case I'd recommend building up Defense or Recharge.


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Posted

Both. Or neither. Since I couldn't realistically boost my Defender's damage to anything appreciable, I instead opted to max out his hp, regen, and recovery. He may not do much damage, but he's nearly impossible to kill. He can simply outlast most opponents. As for my Crab, he could have used more damage and defense. Instead, I maxed out his recharge. That lets him keep his pets out 100% of the time, and his dull pain clone perma'd. So more HP, and the pets absorb some of the threat damage while dishing damage of their own. All the purple set bonuses for him were additional gravy.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by wudake View Post
I was wondering about people's approach to set bonuses. In your experiences, is it your goal to use set bonuses to enhance strenghts you already have or to make up for abilities lacking in your AT/Powerset? For example, I've started a */Regeneration Scrapper and I'm looking ahead to set inventions. Is it overkill to slot all the +Regen, +Heal, +Recovery I can fit or maybe consider defense/resistance?

Thanks.
Well, on my katana/regen, I went for S/L defense and some small +hp. Trying to get any decent resistance values out of set bonuses is akin to hauling water uphill with a sieve. I didn't bother with much for recovery because I have it out the wazoo. The way I look at it is that I have tons of regen; adding some defense from IO bonuses is going to help Divine Avalanche keep me alive. If it was possible to add a decent amount of resistance to my regen scrapper with sets, I would probably do that instead to smooth out the incoming damage curve.

In general it depends on the powersets. With defense sets I get defense to boost strengths, because the closer you get to the softcap the more valuable defense becomes. On mixed sets like WP or Inv I go for defense to cover holes and boost strengths, because layering defensive abilities (defense, resistance, regen) is where it's at. I don't have much experience with resistance sets like Fire/Electrical/Dark Armor but I suspect I would try for some defense there too.

I guess I just try to build for defense, on my melee characters at least On my blasters I have tried ranged defense but usually just fall back to +rech and whatever else happens to come along. Honestly I find that I concern myself with set bonuses mainly on my melee characters, because they can get so much benefit.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by wudake View Post
I was wondering about people's approach to set bonuses. In your experiences, is it your goal to use set bonuses to enhance strenghts you already have or to make up for abilities lacking in your AT/Powerset? For example, I've started a */Regeneration Scrapper and I'm looking ahead to set inventions. Is it overkill to slot all the +Regen, +Heal, +Recovery I can fit or maybe consider defense/resistance?

Thanks.
I have strategies similar to the above posters, though nearly all my toons now are planned around some sort of defense bonuses.

It is less valuable to slot for +regen and +hp for a /Regen scrapper. If you look at the hp/sec in Mids', you can see +regen bonuses aren't giving you much more survivability at all. If you have perma-Dull Pain and the hp accolades, then you definitely don't need any +hp, as you'll be capped anyway.

The prevailing wisdom on the scrapper board is +recharge is vital for /Regen, though each bit of recharge added does offer you less and less, and +def bonuses are quite valuable as well.

Your primary and power pools should play a role in deciding your set bonuses, too. Stamina? Dark (with Dark Consumption)? Then you very likely don't need any +max end or +recov bonuses, other than the ones you collect incidentally. Weave? Katana/Broadsword? Then you should grab defense to stack with these. With the swords, you could even build for ranged (most) and AoE defense (some), counting on the melee defense from Parry/Divine Avalanche. Do you have a gapless attack chain? Hasten? Then if your DP/Recon/Instant/MoG are recharging fast enough for you, you can concentrate less on more +rech.

If I were to rebuild my retired Spines/Regen, I would focus on S/L defense bonuses, as they're pretty easy to come by (if you have the cash for Kinetic Combats, at least) on a melee toon, after getting substantial recharge.


 

Posted

I simply don't think of set bonuses as covering holes or boosting strengths. I think of set bonuses as letting me achieve build goals, such as soft-capped defense, sufficient recharge for my desired attack string, and so on.

As a Regen Scrapper, prevailing wisdom is to slot for recharge, recharge, MORE recharge, and then defense. Don't bother with +regen except as happens accidentally. Don't bother with +hit points except as happens accidentally (you "need" just enough to be at the hit point cap with accolades and Dull Pain). Definitely don't bother with +heal. Resistance would be nice, but you get pretty negligible amounts out of set bonuses. Do take the fighting pool for Tough. Consider Weave if you're stacking some defense.

You could think of that as covering holes instead of improving on strengths. But I can give a counterexample with a Shield Defense Scrapper. You get a lot of defense with a Shield Defense Scrapper, but you want a lot more. You want to get to the 45% defense soft cap, so pile on those pool powers and set bonuses. That's the most critical part of the build in my opinion. You could think of that as improving on your strengths.

So the answer is a simple "it depends" and also "I wouldn't even look at it that way."


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
So the answer is a simple "it depends" and also "I wouldn't even look at it that way."
I think that covers my view as well. I do tend to look at what I can get on a character and see if I can max it up. For example I am amassing the damage increase on one of my peacebringers plus the increase to hitpoints. Perhaps I would add "whatever amuses me at the moment".


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Posted

Also, you always want to be aware of (not necessarily avoid, but be aware of) the classic "completionist" pitfall: Sometimes IOing every power and/or six-set-slotting is a BAD thing. Some sets may not offer as much of a enhancement percentage as plain IOs do--is the resulting decrease in damage really worth an 1.5% increase in cold resistance? Debt protection--really? Similarly, sometimes a proc really isn't worth it. It may be fun to have a "Chance for Damage" enhancement...but what happens if you nuke that, and slot an ACTUAL damage enhancement in its place?

Maybe this is completely obvious, but I fall for it all the time.


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Posted

I recently leveled up and slotted out a Claws/Regen Scrapper. In my case I went for Melee and Ranged Defense. Defense is a big hole for Regen Scrappers. They can die when spiked with damage if they aren't running MoG. Sure more Recharge will let you use MoG or IH more often, but they do go down.

I took Fitness, so I had Stamina and Quick Recovery. With both of those running, plus the usual Accolades, plus decent slotting in my attacks, I don't have any END problems. No need to slot for extra Recovery or END.

I got some HP bonuses from IO sets as a side effect of slotting the ones I wanted for Defense. That plus Accolades plus slotting Dull Pain moderately was enough to put me at the HP cap of 2409.

Sure I got 25% Global Recharge from 5 sets that grant +5% (Doctored Wounds, Red Fortune, Obliteration), plus one LotG, plus Hasten. But I wanted the Defense more than the Recharge. Last night I semi-tanked an ITF thanks to my Defense plus Ice Shields. We didn't have a Tanker, so I frequently led the charge. MoG was great when it was up, but the Defense and shields are what kept me alive when it was down. I ran through Maria's arc and hardly worked up a sweat fighting all those EBs. I rarely bothered with MoG or IH, as Reconstruction and Dull Pain were usually enough.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by wudake View Post
For example, I've started a */Regeneration Scrapper and I'm looking ahead to set inventions. Is it overkill to slot all the +Regen, +Heal, +Recovery I can fit or maybe consider defense/resistance?
Each aspect is a separate question.
+regen - Not a bad plan. In my opinion though, you've already got so much that the improvement will not be dramatic.

+heal - Bad idea. Increasing the healing effect will not apply to Reconstruction since it gives resistance. It won't apply to Integration, Fast Healing or Instant Healing because they are not "heal" powers; they are "regen" powers. It would only help Dull Pain.

+recovery - Now we come to your 'hole' question. Are you having endurance issues, even after slotting end reduction? If so, that is a hole in the build and IO's can fix it.


You really need to evaluate each build on its own merits and ask: Does it have any problems and can IO's address that problem effectively?

+recovery can do amazing things for a toon that actually needs it. I have an empathy defender who runs 5 toggles in combat without Stamina. This is achieved by a combination of end reduction from IO sets and +recovery bonuses. I have dark/dark tank (with Stamina) who runs *TEN* toggles. Without IO's, that would be a horrific task.

For another example, I have an invuln tank with his resistances maxed out and no 'holes' except for psi damage. With IO's, I saw two routes to take: boost defense or boost regeneration. I went with regen since healing yourself is the universal defense vs all damage types. He has +HP bonuses, can cap his HP with Dull Pain and has 300% regen. He can survive psi enemies and absolutely laugh at enemies using smashing/lethal.


Basically, you need to be familiar with the build and be able to ask yourself what annoys you the most about it. If there are no major issues, the next question is, "What would make the character even more fun?"


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Posted

Neither, really. For me, primary build goals are always recharge and/or defense because for all characters these offer the greatest comparative benefit. +HP, Accuracy and for very few characters +Regen I consider secondary build goals (i.e. after I've got all the rech/def I want). +Dmg, +Res, +End are ancillary benefits that aren't worth specifically slotting for but are nice to have.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
As a Regen Scrapper, prevailing wisdom is to slot for recharge, recharge, MORE recharge, and then defense. Don't bother with +regen except as happens accidentally. Don't bother with +hit points except as happens accidentally (you "need" just enough to be at the hit point cap with accolades and Dull Pain). Definitely don't bother with +heal.
I agree completely. My BS/regen is my only purpled toon and recharge was my priority (after a little +recovery to handle endurance issues). My main limiting factors were that he can only slot 3 different purple sets and can only slot 3 LotG +recharge.


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What Werner said. Goals. And by goals, I mean recharge.


 

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Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
I think that covers my view as well. I do tend to look at what I can get on a character and see if I can max it up. For example I am amassing the damage increase on one of my peacebringers plus the increase to hitpoints. Perhaps I would add "whatever amuses me at the moment".
Count me in that camp as well. To me, set bonuses are a handy tool for being able to achieve an aim, or a set of aims, on a specific toon. On a Dominator, for example, I might want recharge to try and achive Perma-Domination. On a Tank, I might want additional regeneration. On a Scrapper or Blaster I may want additional defense.

Set bonuses, in all sorts of combinations (and depending on your powersets/powers) give you a means to attempt to acheive these kinds of goals.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by wudake View Post
I was wondering about people's approach to set bonuses. In your experiences, is it your goal to use set bonuses to enhance strenghts you already have or to make up for abilities lacking in your AT/Powerset? For example, I've started a */Regeneration Scrapper and I'm looking ahead to set inventions. Is it overkill to slot all the +Regen, +Heal, +Recovery I can fit or maybe consider defense/resistance?
For a regen scrapper, I would choose recharge and hit points buffs above all else. You rely on your click heals, especially in the late game. You want them up as often as possible, and you want them to do more for you. Take Stamina and you should not need recovery.

Defense would come third, but I'd build specifically for either melee defense or smashing/lethal defense. Your primary will make a big difference there; it's easier to build for defense on a single target focused primary, but for something like Spines your options are more limited.

That, and unless your character development is being bankrolled by another, defense bonuses are more expensive than others, with the easiest sets to get bonuses with being in very high demand.

Resistance bonuses from IO sets ..... need help. Treat them the same way you treat mez time reduction bonuses. Treat them as if they do not exist and you will not go far wrong.



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Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
I have dark/dark tank (with Stamina) who runs *TEN* toggles. Without IO's, that would be a horrific task.
I run *ELEVEN* toggles on my Katana/Dark Armor Scrapper. Who's got twelve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
For a regen scrapper, I would choose recharge and hit points buffs above all else.
The problem with hit point bonuses is that assuming you DO get a lot of recharge, you'll be capable of keeping Dull Pain up full time. So any hit point bonuses beyond the cap while Dull Pain is up are going to be highly situational. Highly situational effects are rarely worth the trade off.

That said, I run a low +recharge, high +defense, high +hit point, high +regeneration Katana/Regen Scrapper. It isn't optimal, but even with only an I12 build, it isn't TOO far off the curve. It also suits me well, because I'm lazy, and I only want to click things when I'm turning up the difficulty level a lot.


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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by wudake View Post
I was wondering about people's approach to set bonuses. In your experiences, is it your goal to use set bonuses to enhance strenghts you already have or to make up for abilities lacking in your AT/Powerset? For example, I've started a */Regeneration Scrapper and I'm looking ahead to set inventions. Is it overkill to slot all the +Regen, +Heal, +Recovery I can fit or maybe consider defense/resistance?

Thanks.
If your strengths are linear like regeneration then plug holes. If you are getting your rear end handed to you as a regeneration scrapper, +0.25 regeneration probably will not help you further your goals.

If your strengths are non-linear like defense, then enhance them. 40% defense/all means you get hit 10% of the time. +5% defense means you get hit half as often. *Of course, depends on many other factors, but simplifying*


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I run *ELEVEN* toggles on my Katana/Dark Armor Scrapper. Who's got twelve?
I think we all knew Werner went to 11.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I run *ELEVEN* toggles on my Katana/Dark Armor Scrapper. Who's got twelve?
I've got a Spines/Dark with Leadership and no Fitness. I think he has 6 DA toggles, Quills, 3 Leadership toggles, CJ/SJ, and Acrobatics. That's 12. If he has Tough and Weave as well, that's 14. But it was made for a SuperTeam of about 5 Spines/Dark Scrappers and 3 Emps who alternate both RAs. I'd need another build for non-Superteam play.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
I have dark/dark tank (with Stamina) who runs *TEN* toggles. Without IO's, that would be a horrific task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I run *ELEVEN* toggles on my Katana/Dark Armor Scrapper. Who's got twelve?
I could have gotten more, but I didn't know it was a bidding war.

Didn't someone create a hero named Toggle Man?


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Posted

I'm just going to chime in with the majority here: Do what benefits you the most.

This doesn't always mean covering weaknesses. For instance, trying to cover Invul's psi-hole, while doable (with some messed up slotting, you can get more psi resist than energy resist), doesn't give you a whole lot of long-term gain given the relatively few psi-wielding enemies out there. However, a slight boost to its already formidable defenses and resistances will make you darn near unstoppable the other 99% of the time. On the flip side, a Fire or Dark armor user will WANT KB protection, because that's not a weakness you can just ignore.

And then there are things which are simply performance enhancers that are not tied to a particular strength or weakness, Recharge, for example. Aside from Granite tanks, I don't think any powersets have a -recharge penalty, and in all but the most extreme cases (like a Controller's AoE Hold), recharge isn't a huge issue as far as getting attacks off and doing damage and surviving. But, extra recharge is almost always worth having more of. "How much" you want depends on your build and your dependency on your tier 8's and 9's.


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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele View Post
I'm just going to chime in with the majority here: Do what benefits you the most.

This doesn't always mean covering weaknesses. For instance, trying to cover Invul's psi-hole, while doable (with some messed up slotting, you can get more psi resist than energy resist), doesn't give you a whole lot of long-term gain given the relatively few psi-wielding enemies out there. However, a slight boost to its already formidable defenses and resistances will make you darn near unstoppable the other 99% of the time. On the flip side, a Fire or Dark armor user will WANT KB protection, because that's not a weakness you can just ignore.

And then there are things which are simply performance enhancers that are not tied to a particular strength or weakness, Recharge, for example. Aside from Granite tanks, I don't think any powersets have a -recharge penalty, and in all but the most extreme cases (like a Controller's AoE Hold), recharge isn't a huge issue as far as getting attacks off and doing damage and surviving. But, extra recharge is almost always worth having more of. "How much" you want depends on your build and your dependency on your tier 8's and 9's.
Really, I've gotten to the point where my main concern isn't necessarily maxing out the ability to kill the fastest. In the last few months I've focused mainly on the theme/concept of a particular character. With that said, I've been toying with taking one thematic aspect of a power and trying to push it to higher and higher levels even at the expense of being deficient in other areas (think Havok of Marvel's X-Men who has one power vs. DC's Superman who has several powers).

Now back to my original question. My hope was that I could soley focus on this particular character's strength (in this case, regeneration) but with all of the caps and limitations I wasn't sure how prudent this could be or how common other players took this approach with their characters.

More than likely I'm just going to sell out and eventually fall back to the same pattern of building up the power tree and buying the same invention sets. I always start of with such grand ideas when editing a costume in the creator and then running around in the tutorial but eventually being practical takes over.