Are all Taunts created equal?


Backhand

 

Posted

Sarrate raised an interesting point in a reply to the Willpower aggro guide I posted some time ago. At least according to Red Tomax's guides, the taunts in Dark Melee and Dual Blades only last 3/4 of the duration of the taunts in the remaining sets. Mids' builder contains the same figures.

Is this in fact true? and if true, is it a bug? It would appear that the shorter period of Provoke and its clones was carried over to these sets when they were ported to Tankers.

Checking on the status of Electric Melee next time I am on.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
Is this in fact true? and if true, is it a bug? It would appear that the shorter period of Provoke and its clones was carried over to these sets when they were ported to Tankers.
I believe it to be a bug. I don't see any logical reason for certain Taunts/Confronts to be of different strengths on the same ATs. I think there are two possible courses of action:

1) Standardize the duration for each AT. This means all Tanker Taunts would be 20 scale and Scrapper Confronts would be 15 scale. (The devs would have to decide if Brutes should be 15 or 20. My personal opinion is that they should be 15.)

2) Standard the duration for all ATs. This means all Taunts/Confronts would be either scale 15 or scale 20. When that is done, increase or lower the actual taunt modifier itself. This is a more drastic change, since it would modifier other taunt effects (like auras/provoke). If this option were chosen, my choice would be to just increase the Tanker taunt mod.

I think that #1 is the more likely of the two options, but I personally think that #2 should be taken. It would prevent this from happening in the future, and I personally think Tankers should have the strongest taunt effects in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
Checking on the status of Electric Melee next time I am on.
Next time you get a chance (if it's before me), could you take a look at Brute/Claws/Taunt as well? I'd be interested to see if they bumped that up from 30.75s (scale 15) to 41s (scale 20) when porting it.


 

Posted

Brute claws has a taunt duration of 41s (base 20) at lvl 50. Tanker electric melee has a taunt duration of 30.75s (base 15) at lvl 50.


@Mojo-
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Posted

I checked. It would appear that both the threat modifier and the taunt duration are affected - which is more or less what you would expect, since my understanding is that they are linked. I checked on two willpower tankers, which controls for any difference coming from the primary. Both are level 50. Both have Taunt slotted identically (4 Mocking Beratements).

Melaena (WP/DM) tanker's taunt ---

Magnitude 590.80%
Duration 30.75 seconds

Hypsiste (WP/SS) tanker's taunt ---

Magnitude 743.99%
Duration 41 seconds

This looks more and more like a bug. The same results appeared for Heraclea (Inv/SS) vs Omphale (Inv/DM).



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Mojo_ View Post
Brute claws has a taunt duration of 41s (base 20) at lvl 50. Tanker electric melee has a taunt duration of 30.75s (base 15) at lvl 50.
Okay, so the current design indicates all Scrapper Confronts should have a value of 15 (Fiery Melee/Confront is still 20 scale), while Brutes/Tankers should all be 20 scale. I'd say anything that deviates from that is a bug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
I checked. It would appear that both the threat modifier and the taunt duration are affected - which is more or less what you would expect, since my understanding is that they are linked. I checked on two willpower tankers, which controls for any difference coming from the primary. Both are level 50. Both have Taunt slotted identically (4 Mocking Beratements).

Melaena (WP/DM) tanker's taunt ---

Magnitude 590.80%
Duration 30.75 seconds

Hypsiste (WP/SS) tanker's taunt ---

Magnitude 743.99%
Duration 41 seconds

This looks more and more like a bug. The same results appeared for Heraclea (Inv/SS) vs Omphale (Inv/DM).
Wait a minute, the magnitude is what was increased in the real numbers window? Well, that's unexpected and contrary to what we've been told (that taunt duration enhancers enhance, well, duration instead of magnitude). It's not, however impossible for them to function in this manner. (Intangible enhancements, for example, enhance the magnitude of FF/Sonic Cage powers.)

This raises a few possibilities:

1) "Real Numbers" is interpretting what enhancers are doing incorrectly. This isn't too hard to believe, since "Real Numbers" is interpretting MAG as a percent.

2) How Taunt powers are enhanced isn't standardized. ie: Some Taunt powers (DM and SS in this case) are flagged to have their MAG enhanced rather than duration. I'll take a look tonight at how "real numbers" displays my Stone and Fiery Melee Taunts as.

3) Taunt enhancers have always modified MAG rather than duration and we were just mistold. (This is just another reason I need to try retesting taunt mechanics, since we were told that MAG plays a very minor role, yet I've noticed a considerable difference between base Taunt and a fully slotted one.)

Curiousier and curiouser...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
Sarrate raised an interesting point in a reply to the Willpower aggro guide I posted some time ago. At least according to Red Tomax's guides, the taunts in Dark Melee and Dual Blades only last 3/4 of the duration of the taunts in the remaining sets. Mids' builder contains the same figures.

Is this in fact true? and if true, is it a bug? It would appear that the shorter period of Provoke and its clones was carried over to these sets when they were ported to Tankers.

Checking on the status of Electric Melee next time I am on.
Looks like a bug to me. I'll prod someone and get it fixed.

EDIT: It looks like the sets were using the Scrapper/Brute values instead of the Tanker values. Effected sets are Dark Melee, Dual Blades and Electric Melee.


 

Posted

*cracks whip* Get to fixin!

Oh and FEPAARN* AhhhhhhhHHHhhhHHHhh!!!!!!






First Ever Post After A Red Name


 

Posted

Wow, good catch, all. Guess we should check the values on ported sets just in case something like this happens again. Thanks for looking into this, Castle.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle View Post
Looks like a bug to me. I'll prod someone and get it fixed.

EDIT: It looks like the sets were using the Scrapper/Brute values instead of the Tanker values. Effected sets are Dark Melee, Dual Blades and Electric Melee.
Lazy copy-pasters!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarrate View Post
Wait a minute, the magnitude is what was increased in the real numbers window? Well, that's unexpected and contrary to what we've been told (that taunt duration enhancers enhance, well, duration instead of magnitude). It's not, however impossible for them to function in this manner. (Intangible enhancements, for example, enhance the magnitude of FF/Sonic Cage powers.)
That is what the display said. Now, my understanding of the taunt mechanic is that it is a threat amplifier that takes into account the base duration of the taunt in a power, as well as an AT based multiplier, and a ranged versus melee factor. All other things being equal, you'd expect more magnitude to follow from a longer duration, and vice versa. My understanding is that the chief importance of magnitude is to figure the resistance of higher conning targets to the duration of the taunt.



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"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
That is what the display said. Now, my understanding of the taunt mechanic is that it is a threat amplifier that takes into account the base duration of the taunt in a power, as well as an AT based multiplier, and a ranged versus melee factor. All other things being equal, you'd expect more magnitude to follow from a longer duration, and vice versa. My understanding is that the chief importance of magnitude is to figure the resistance of higher conning targets to the duration of the taunt.
When Castle made the post explaining how taunt effects really work, he said that the remaining taunt duration remaining on the target was used. So if you enhanced the duration of Taunt, then it would increase the threat multiplier of it. What the MAG of taunts do is to check to see whether the mob is effected or not, just like how holds/etc work. The thing is, very few mobs have taunt protection/resistance, so MAG is almost always inconsequential since it usually passes.

If taunt enhancers indeed increase the MAG and not the duration (assuming all other info provided by Castle is correct), it provides next to no benefit. Of course, trying to test it to see which is which isn't going to be easy (if even possible due to all the unknown variables at this point).


 

Posted

Any chance of having Tanker's Willpower taunt aura Rise to the Challenge normalized while we're at it? I mean, I know, all powersets are not meant to be created equal, but it's so annoying to be a Tanker and have aggroed enemies peeled off so easily. It's Embarrassing!

Be Well!
Fireheart


 

Posted

From what we have been told, that's a feature and not a bug, Fireheart. It's one of Willpower's tradeoffs for being so well-rounded in other respects.

It's not really that big of an issue, either. My WP/DB got around it by doing what all my other tankers do... attacking and taunting liberally.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarrate View Post
Wait a minute, the magnitude is what was increased in the real numbers window? Well, that's unexpected and contrary to what we've been told (that taunt duration enhancers enhance, well, duration instead of magnitude). It's not, however impossible for them to function in this manner. (Intangible enhancements, for example, enhance the magnitude of FF/Sonic Cage powers.)
I think this is a bug with the Real Numbers feature, would not be the first one I spot*.

I can say for certain that at least from the start taunt powers were set to enhance and work off duration, not magnitude. There is basically one field called Scale that determines the strenght of an attribute and another that is called Attribute Type, that determines if the Scale means Magnitude or Duration. Enhancements work on this field. There is a second Magnitude field that will be used only if the Attribute Type is set to duration. This field can not be enhanced by enhancements.

Taunt has it's Attribute Scale set to Duration and the Magnitude stored in the magnitude field. Even if Castle wanted he cant make enhancements work on the Magnitude field, he could, however, change the Attribute Type to Magnitude and blank out the Magnitude field (as at that point Magnitude means nothing) then setting a static duration in the Duration field (have I lost anyone yet?) but that's a very manual change and unlikely to happen without a big patch note, and it would also render taunt enhancements useless.

This is also how he allows Acrobatic to enhance it's magnitude, it's set to Attribute Type Magnitude with a fixed duration.


*Long time ago I found that Resist Magic/Mutant DO did not enhance Toxic resistance but Real Numbers were saying the resistance of Healing Flames was affected, not sure if it got fixed but I reported that bug a long time ago. Ironically, the combat Attributes window did display
my true total Toxic resistance, that was just the base the Healing Flames power provided.

Quote:
If taunt enhancers indeed increase the MAG and not the duration (assuming all other info provided by Castle is correct), it provides next to no benefit. Of course, trying to test it to see which is which isn't going to be easy (if even possible due to all the unknown variables at this point).
It's a shame Taunt magnitude cant be tracked on the Combat Attributes, would make for a very easy test. But you still should be able to test it in PvP, once it manages to land on the target the target should right click on the icon and see what magnitude and duration it states.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle View Post
Looks like a bug to me. I'll prod someone and get it fixed.

EDIT: It looks like the sets were using the Scrapper/Brute values instead of the Tanker values. Effected sets are Dark Melee, Dual Blades and Electric Melee.
*Affected sets... <.< Just sayin'


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle View Post
Looks like a bug to me. I'll prod someone and get it fixed.

EDIT: It looks like the sets were using the Scrapper/Brute values instead of the Tanker values. Effected sets are Dark Melee, Dual Blades and Electric Melee.
Note to Sarrate and everyone else..Omg guys lets not presume Castle already knows and it's something to do with balance. I did exactly that.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

While we're talking erronious taunt durations, I think shield scrappers taunt aura is longer duration than tanker auras, although maybe not shield tankers.

It's annoying enough that if I have to spread out my taunting between a bunch of stuff, I tell them that I'm not going to try to out-taunt them and if they want less agro they'll have to turn off the aura.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfis_Presley View Post
While we're talking erronious taunt durations, I think shield scrappers taunt aura is longer duration than tanker auras, although maybe not shield tankers.
Tanker and Scrapper AAO have the same duration. Likewise, Invincibility and RttC have identical durations between the two ATs. Just like Invincibility, AAO is 25% stronger than normal auras (16.875s vs 13.5s). Compound that with the fact it pulses relatively fast (1s) compared to damage auras (2s) and the Scrappers deal considerably more damage than Tanks, and everything makes sense as to why they're incredibly hard to hold aggro over. (It can be done, esp if you get in first, but it's definitely something you have to constantly work at.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfis_Presley View Post
It's annoying enough that if I have to spread out my taunting between a bunch of stuff, I tell them that I'm not going to try to out-taunt them and if they want less agro they'll have to turn off the aura.
This is just my personal opinion, but I find it to be fun at times - I consider it to be a challenge. It forces me to play better / smarter by doing it and makes me a better player because of it. I'm not saying you should have the same view, mind you, just sharing my point of view. (Also, I think forcing them to deal less damage to be kind of a shame.)

Having said all that, I don't think they should have auras as strong as they are. Even at 3/4 or even 1/2 the current duration, they'd be plenty strong to keep mobs stuck to them against other players. (Likewise from Brutes' auras, Taunt, and 'Gauntlet-lite.') The rub for me isn't that there is a challenge or anything, it's that all other things being equal (identical slotting, playstyle, etc), Tankers have a disadvantage when it comes to taunting, as you saw first hand.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarrate View Post
This is just my personal opinion, but I find it to be fun at times - I consider it to be a challenge. It forces me to play better / smarter by doing it and makes me a better player because of it. I'm not saying you should have the same view, mind you, just sharing my point of view. (Also, I think forcing them to deal less damage to be kind of a shame.)
Now that I have an extensive roster of tankers (one of every primary except for Electric Armor at 45+), and some experience at building brutes for a tanking role, I've been focusing on building scrappers that can tank. My two best candidates are Spines/WP and Electric/Shield. Both of them do an adequate job at taking alpha strikes and holding aggro; the Spines scrapper doesn't need to rely on the Willpower taunt aura for holding aggro, of course.

No scrapper ought to be able to take aggro from any actual tanker, but these two can and do fairly often, and had to be built with that in mind.



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"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
No scrapper ought to be able to take aggro from any actual tanker, but these two can and do fairly often, and had to be built with that in mind.
I don't completely agree with this. I don't have a problem with Scrappers having the ability to pull limited aggro off Tankers if they're actively trying to and/or the Tanker isn't. For example, an AoE Scrapper primary (Spines, Elec, etc) holding aggro off a primarily single target Tanker secondary (EM, DM, etc). Likewise, I have no problems with a Scrapper who uses Confront to hold an boss's aggro instead of a Tanker who isn't using Taunt.

The way things are setup now, however, the Tanker has to put in double time effort (using all their tools) to hold aggro off Shield/Invuln Scrappers building threat passively. I don't think that's desirable at all.


Brutes exasperbates this even further by having equal threat mod, 5 target Taunt (with duration matching Tankers), and more damage.


 

Posted

Thanks all for this thread.

This actually explained something that was happening in game to my EA/DM, but I was writing it off to my own perceptions/bad memory. It seemed particularly noticeable when I teamed with another tank compared to other multi-tank runs.

I am happy to know that, in this at least, I am not crazy.


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Posted

Well, depending on the tank, you may still have aggro peeled off of you. If I'm with an Ice tank, I would expect it to take a lot of aggro (well, as long as it had both auras running). Icicles and Chilling Embrace gains a lot of attention.

Heck Chilling Embrace does on its own... my Ice/EM picks up more aggro than he can handle most Tanker Tuesdays.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
No scrapper ought to be able to take aggro from any actual tanker, but these two can and do fairly often, and had to be built with that in mind.
There are times when yes Scrappers can be such an asset by doing so and there are times when yes you wish they couldn't. In the times you may wish they couldn't a change of play maybe in order and from that change of play, better slotting in taunt might be required. I've had moments before AVs where I have told every Scrapper to turn their auras off before beginning. It can help immensely.

A brute can more easily take aggro and from that and their inexperience they may actually be doing more harm than good. Defenders would most likely prove to be more preferable in teams with Brutes much more than they would with Tankers or Scrappers imo. Moments should be won by teams working together using powers in eachothers favour and not ones own. It isn't always preferable that powers are used because they're there and that's the way it is.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

When on a tanker, I almost always lead with Taunt, and unless a scrapper or brute charges ahead of me I don't have issues with archvillains.

On a tankworthy scrapper, I usually try to keep an eye out for what's happening with the rest of the team, the same as I do on an actual tanker. The electric/shield scrapper is best as an offtank in this regard, having the asset of instant mobility; if a boss or an ambush is coming from the rear, I can put myself in its path very quickly.

On the other hand, I have successfully tanked master runs of the ITF and DrK on these scrappers, on tankerless teams. The fact that the taunt aura does not autohit an AV is usually made up for by the fact that the scrapper's damage pulls well ahead of any tanker's. On a less experienced team, this might not have been possible, and I'd have been less nervous on a real tanker.



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Posted

Most people I am pretty sure do not get into threat mechanics deeply, partly because they and their team members are well supported by other people in the team.

When your support from other players is non existent in terms of being commonly identified as support ie you are without both defenders and controllers on your Mo run. Then keeping as much damage off of the less durable team mates as possible becomes advisable along with keeping the likelihood of becoming defeated yourself.

You might for the best option (team output/time) decide to outrange some effects. By being ranged your threat is lower. A scrapper in melee could have competitive threat levels due to their taunt aura being on and their damage output. Death Shroud + Cloak of Fear + Soul Drain + Good attack chain can at times without a single taunt element involved steal attention from even the most well taunt slotted. If in doing so damage is redirected their way and they happen to be in the vicinity of off others then a aoe can occur that can cripple the team. To avoid moments like that it is in best interests all round for the scrapper to have lower threat. A taunt aura can come off. The scrapper would often dish good if not better damage per end over time anyway.

As someone who tanks with scrappers without defenders or controllers I have had to learn certain things about AVs, what are their attacks, more importantly what can their attacks do and when they will use them. You can keep the others in the team from being hit, as well as yourself by most attacks, but in some cases other members have to keep their threat level down.

I'd imagine some people on an all Scrapper STF without the use of temps would have a team where many members would be running back from the hospital in the boat during some AV fights. None of that needs to happen. One person with a high threat level keeping damage directed towards them and entirely off of the team can help the rest of the team survive to do the most damage in the shortest amount of time. That's what we do, and we have so few deaths a scrapper Mo is clearly 100% possible.

A tanker at their peak theoretically should not in looking at the team care what toons are in play but in how they're played.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.