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Both Ice and Grav work well with Rad and Storm, and provide substantially different game experiences. I don't have the experience with Cold.|
Originally Posted by Energy_Blaze
Hey everyone. I'm having trouble deciding what kind of controller to make next... I'm torn between Ice/ and Grav/. Both are new to me, and I just can't decide which to choose... Then comes a whole different problem. The secondary. I was thinking either Rad, or Storm, or Cold. I was just wondering if anyone could try to help me pick. Maybe list a couple advantages of your the different sets, or past experiences with the sets. Maybe something crazy they can accomplish with these toons that set them apart or really made them happy with their decision.
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Ice/Rad can be built as a melee support character. Ice/Rad is one of two builds that can make effective use out of Choking Cloud -- combine Arctic Air with Choking Cloud for continual PB AoE toggle control. Make sure you slot AA with max EndRdx and Confuse, and CC with max EndRdx and Hold. Rad provides a very flexible set of tools.
Ice/Storm is a fun mix of controls and flashiness. One of the best parts is two AoE slip-n-fall powers -- Ice Slick can be used on one group, followed by Freezing Rain. Storm gives you great positioning powers for your AoE controls, and adds some nice damage in late levels. No self-heal, though.
Gravity is lacking in AoE controls until late in the set. It has three really interesting powers and one interesting quirk. Propel is a hard hitting but really slow damage power that is visually one of the best in the game. Wormhole is a unique power with some nice and unique strategic options. And Singularity is a tank/controller that really makes the set. The Rad secondary goes with everything, but there is nothing really special about Grav/Rad. However, the quirk gives Grav/Storm a nice option -- Grav's AoE Immobilize is the only controller AoE Immob WITHOUT -knockback. This means that Crushing Field+Freezing Rain works as a knockdown/debuff field where the foes can't escape. My personal opinion is that Grav pairs best with Storm . . . until Traps becomes a controller secondary.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Woof. Gravity/Traps would be sick. I think Ice/Traps would be sick too. Imagine the whole "capped defenses" in conjunction with actually having resist debuffs, bonus damage, and a point blank kill zone. It would make my capped Ice/FF seem pointless. 
Anyway, I have played Gravity/Storm to 50 and Gravity/Radiation to 40. Both are great. Gravity/Storm takes a bit longer to bloom, but it does have some nice low level aspects (Crushing Field doesn't stop Freezing Rain's knockdown). Gravity/Rad has more mitigation sooner (Crushing Field + Radiation Infection) but it isnt as satisfying visually in the upper levels. Gravity/Storm is a hilarious combo at high levels, with all the Pets and Pseudo-pets and the knockbacks and knock-ups, and whatnot.
Anyway, Gravity is a good primary if you want to solo from level 1 without having to dip into pool powers for damage. Its main downside (as Local Man mentioned) is that the control blooms late. Grav/Rad mitigates this sooner. Grav/Storm is more fun later. These 2 combos are IMO the absolute best pairings with Gravity.
As for Ice Control, its OK. You won't solo well before you get your pet, unless you take Air Superiority or Chilblain or both. Its a good set, but sometimes the lack of a regular hard control (like the AoE stun of Fire, Earth, etc) is irritating. Ice Slick is a regular soft control, and thats cool, but sometimes it can be unsatisfying. But sometimes it can be *more* satisfying. AOE knockdown can really screw the bad guys. So, I have mixed feelings about Ice Control sometimes.
Still, Ice/Rad and Ice/Storm are both great combos for Ice. Ice/Storm has a lot of mitigation in the form of slows, knockdown, knockback, debuffs, and controlled chaos. It can be flashy. Its nice and thematic. The damage is pretty decent at high level. As for Ice/Rad, its a really interesting melee Arctic Air + Choking Cloud build, and you could slot up procs for damage. I guess you could play it as a ranged controller too, and it'd be effective, but that'd make Local Man cry.
Either way, both of those Ice Control choices are among the more interesting ones, and perhaps the best ones. I think Ice/FF and Ice/TA are also pretty interesting for very different reasons, but you didn't ask about that.
As for the /Cold secondary, I've played one (Fire/Cold) to level 50, just to try it, and I'm plinking around a bit with an Earth/Cold, but I can't say its my favorite secondary.
I certainly would think twice about combining it with Gravity, just because it offers little control (mainly just Snow Storm and Sleet), and Gravity also lacks area control in the low levels. So, it'd be tough going. Later it could be nice, kinda like a Grav/Storm with less Chaos, but with a more team-friendly demeanor. I do wonder if there are any hidden interesting things with Grav/Cold, tho. Maybe Singularity could tank harder foes if you hit them with benumb, infrigidate, snow storm, sleet, and even occasionally heat loss, all while buffing Singularity's defense. It could maybe be a very formidable single target screw-job controller. And hey, being able to Wormhole dudes somewhere into a corner and Sleet them is nice (as I said, it'd be a more team-friendly chaos-absent version of a Grav/Storm in this sense).
I think Ice/Cold might be more palatable at low levels, just because Ice Slick is a pretty serious "WIN" button at low levels, and careful use of AA and Shiver (and Snow Storm from /Cold) could make you feel safer and even more team friendly. Its also a theme-match, and that is always good. Still, in a way, Gravity/Cold seems like it'd be more interesting than Ice/Cold, but I think Ice/Cold hits the ground running a bit better if you want a team character.
Anyway, just rambling a bit. Not sure if these additional comments help, but they are fun to think about.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
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Thanks for the input guys. Will have to look it over a couple times and see what builds I can come up with it. Overall though, it was very helpful, so thanks again.
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Originally Posted by Crysys
Peacebringers at least got a recent overhaul. They moved up from sucktastic to craptacular.
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one word...ice!
I will 2nd or 3rd how fun grav/storm is.
I agree with the above poster stating /storm or /rad is the best pairing for gravity.
However, I would imagine that grav/kin would be hella fun also.
As much damage as gravity does, helping that with SP and later FS would make the set even better!
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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I am not a fan of Gravity Control. The powers look cool but IMO the set struggles next to the incredibleness of the other Controller primaries. I'd give it a rating of "Passable." There isn't any Gravity/ combo for me that IMO wouldn't be outshined by a different primary.
Ice comes in next-to-last place for me in terms of power. It's good but changes made to the game since its inception have benefited Ice less than other primaries. Containment interferes with one of Ice's main controls, and the set already had low damage. I would still rate Ice as "Good," if not necessarily the "Great" I'd give to Fire, Mind, Plant, Earth or Illusion. If knockdown caused Containment and/or Jack Frost's defenses were increased to match the Earth pet, I would bump this set up to the level of the other primaries.
Both Gravity and Ice are still fun and playable if you know what you are getting into. You should also note that Ice Control on a Dominator gets around some of the issues a Controller might have, especially solo.
Pretty much any combination of Ice and Gravity with a secondary will work ok. The exception I'd caution away from is Ice/Sonic, which would eat so much endurance that you'd probably be frustrated. Ice/Force Field on the other hand works well as a team Controller.
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I was not a fan of Gravity until I fairly recently got a Grav/Storm up to the late 20's. I pretty much solo'ed him the entire way, and he was an effective solo character, allowing me the time to fully use all my powers from both sets. One key is the combo of Crushing Field and Freezing Rain -- no knockdown protection in CF turned Freezing Rain into a knockdown power with no "run-away." |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I am not a fan of Gravity Control. The powers look cool but IMO the set struggles next to the incredibleness of the other Controller primaries. I'd give it a rating of "Passable." There isn't any Gravity/ combo for me that IMO wouldn't be outshined by a different primary.
Ice comes in next-to-last place for me in terms of power. It's good but changes made to the game since its inception have benefited Ice less than other primaries. Containment interferes with one of Ice's main controls, and the set already had low damage. I would still rate Ice as "Good," if not necessarily the "Great" I'd give to Fire, Mind, Plant, Earth or Illusion. If knockdown caused Containment and/or Jack Frost's defenses were increased to match the Earth pet, I would bump this set up to the level of the other primaries. Both Gravity and Ice are still fun and playable if you know what you are getting into. You should also note that Ice Control on a Dominator gets around some of the issues a Controller might have, especially solo. Pretty much any combination of Ice and Gravity with a secondary will work ok. The exception I'd caution away from is Ice/Sonic, which would eat so much endurance that you'd probably be frustrated. Ice/Force Field on the other hand works well as a team Controller. |
I use Hurricane far more on my Grav/Storm than other */Storm combos, as it protects me while I focus my single-target attack chain of Grav.Dist.-Crush-Propel on a single target. Wormhole is a heck of a lot of fun -- it takes some work to maximize its uses, but it is so much fun to target a small group, hide around a corner, then throw them into a wall, Immob them, Freezing Rain and then destroy them one by one. Thunderclap stacks with the stun in Wormhole when needed.
And finally, Singularity -- I always wondered why many Grav controllers would sing the praises of Singy . . . now I finally know what a great Tank/Controller that glowball is. Steamy Mist + Super Speed gives me invis to drag Singy into a group. Singy keeps them busy while I take out foes one by one. His Repel has saved my tail many times -- and between Singy's Repel and my Hurricane, we can play ping-pong with foes. Tornado and Lightning Storm have substantally added to my ability to do damage, so now in his 40's, my Grav/Storm is a lot of fun. Not very team-friendly, but fun. (On teams, I have to substantially limit the chaos.) Now, I consider Singy, Phanty, Rocky and the Imps all in the "best pets" category, trailed by Twoey and Jack.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Gravity is stronger than some thing, because it gets good later.
I think the major 'fault' with it the the double whammy loss of soft control due to propel and dimension shift being in the set.
Dimension shift is the second best single controlled state in the game (not considering stacked states like stun/immob). Hold is only better because the damage can be done upon thine foes.
However, since both of these powers take up slots.... we lose some of the alternate controls that other sets have.
But lets think about other sets too. Disregard pet differences
Earth
Earth drops the sleep. Grav drops dimension shift. The only real power we lose from here is earthquake. They both have a stun, AoE hold. Propel takes up quicksand. Grav has a better AoE immob because it allows knockdown to take place.
Fire
Fire drops smoke. Fire outshines because it has hotfeet. Flashfire is a stun that wormhole outshines by miles. Bonfire would be useful, but it's really mitigation not control. Still it would be nice to have.
Plant
Plant drops A LOT. It's essentially two picks with some support. Not really good control but great mitigation.
Ice
Ice control drops half of its powers... you either go for the sleep approach or the knockdown approach. It has a great confuse toggle.
So, it's really the fact that dimension shift doesn't really help in active control is why Grav loses a lot. Propel is a good loss, but both drop the controlling abilities of Grav. Considering Wormhole used to be a team teleport power.... I don't really understand what it was ever meant to be.
If we could change dimension shift to a knockdown power (grav keeps pulling people down to earth, knocking them down). Then grav would be on par with everything else. However, we already have two sets that use knockdown as a main form of mitigation. (earth and ice). A good way to implement it in a new way is to make a knockdown toggle PBAoE. Maybe a reverse repel + knockdown. Pull mobs toward you and knock them down on the way. It would give a polar feel between you and the pet.... but I'm not sure how it would work with hurricane. It may be the perfect power for hurricane if it overcomes the repel of hurricane. Imagine two PBAoE knockdown toggles with the tohit debuff except you draw them in and the grav power overcomes the hurricane repel.
So, a magnet effect, stack with freezing rain and hurricane, and the fact that lightning storm is always cast overhead. Plus a tornado. Plus an immob that lets them knockdown and you'd have four powers that are constantly knocking things down. (new grav toggle, hurricane, tornado, freezing rain) plus a few powers that can knockdown (lightning, wormhole), a stun that can stack with wormhole, and snowstorm for the -rech.
If that power were implemented, grav/storm would be the ultimate controller and the best herder.
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I dissent sir. Confuse offers the safety of holds and lowers the damage needed to take out mobs. Stuns offer the safety of hold with the only drawback being the lack of mobility. All other controls allow you some level of control over their duration.|
Originally Posted by 5th_Player
Dimension shift is the second best single controlled state in the game (not considering stacked states like stun/immob). Hold is only better because the damage can be done upon thine foes.
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I find your whole assessment pretty darn confusing, especially for someone new to controllers, as plant arguably has some of the best control.
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1. For control purposes. Dimension shift is the second best state outside of hold. Not for general purposes. For general purposes most everything else is better.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I dissent sir. Confuse offers the safety of holds and lowers the damage needed to take out mobs. Stuns offer the safety of hold with the only drawback being the lack of mobility. All other controls allow you some level of control over their duration.
I find your whole assessment pretty darn confusing, especially for someone new to controllers, as plant arguably has some of the best control. |
2. My point about grav wasn't that it is mostly on par. My point is that POWER PER POWER, it drops about as many powers as other sets. Meaning, ultimately, that grav could be THAT MUCH BETTER if they swap dimension shift for some other form of control.
Again, ultimately, in the beginning of the game, soft controls weren't as powerful. Hard controls (holds and phase shifts) were better choices except teams complained that phase shifts slowed down the kill speed. Hard controls were up every fight, lasted almost the whole fight duration and prevented all damage, phase shifts were used if a second spawn aggroed. Controllers were far less concerned with doing any damage at all, and they performed a FAR MORE EXCLUSIVE purpose than today.
As controller effectiveness shifted from hard controls to combined soft controls (due to the duration of hard controls cut in half and recharge doubled), grav became less effective. Controlling became less exclusive with soft controls being more available as defenders and even blasters had access to soft controls. The lines for controllers blurred a little as toons like D3s and such were on par for controlling effectiveness, and controllers like fire/kin finding that they could do respectable damage with containment and pets.
So in short, my argument isn't that grav is equal to other sets. My point is that the gameplay for controllers has shifted away in effectiveness from the powers grav has access to.
If the change to hard control hadn't been done, grav would have access to the most hard control of any build (especially grav/rad).
So the change to controllers is what gimped grav.
If dimension shift (which is near useless in end-game where it would have ever been useful) was replaced with a knockdown cast or knockdown toggle, the it would be more synergetic and become on par with other sets. Especially since its aoe holds and immobs allow knockdown.
I think your argument that Dimension Shift used to be great control, but isn't any more, is flawed. Even before the Great Controller Nerf, the general concensus was that "Intangibility sucks" and Gravity Controllers were not very popular. Yes, DS had and still has a few situational uses, and a few proponents are out there, but it is generally a disliked power. I'm not sure I agree with your definition of "control" in the context of this game.
I usually like to try things out at one point or another, so I decided to take Black Hole on a Dark Miama character a little while ago. My immediate reaction? It sucked. I tried slotting it up . . . it still sucked. Figuretively, not literally. I respec'ed out of it as soon as I felt that I had given it a decent chance. I can see some uses solo as a "panic button" power, but almost every other choice available will provide more benefit. Heck, I would take Air Superiority over Dimension Shift.
Moving Wormhole to 18 would solve most of Gravity's problems. Wormhole's existing limitations would keep this from being much of a boost to the set. Changing Dimension Shift to a targetted AoE slow field (Increased Gravity) or knock-up (Decreased Gravity) would be great to improve the AoE control in a consistant way.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I love my grav rad and I loved my ice troller but he was with emp so i have been thinking of running with ice rad. ice slick plus choking cloud would be very nice.
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Ice is one of the few sets that can make good use of Choking Cloud, but you should plan to eventually run Arctic Air and Choking Cloud together. Max slot them both for EndRdx and control (Hold for CC, Confuse for AA). Ice Slick lets you keep the foes distracted, then CC+AA will fully control them most of the time. You won't do much damage, but you will provide tons of control.
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Originally Posted by CosmicThunderer
I love my grav rad and I loved my ice troller but he was with emp so i have been thinking of running with ice rad. ice slick plus choking cloud would be very nice.
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LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
You know, you dont really see gravity controllers anymore, or ice for that matter.
This post makes me wanna build a Grav/ Controller now!
Hey everyone. I'm having trouble deciding what kind of controller to make next... I'm torn between Ice/ and Grav/. Both are new to me, and I just can't decide which to choose... Then comes a whole different problem. The secondary. I was thinking either Rad, or Storm, or Cold. I was just wondering if anyone could try to help me pick. Maybe list a couple advantages of your the different sets, or past experiences with the sets. Maybe something crazy they can accomplish with these toons that set them apart or really made them happy with their decision.