Brute vs Tank
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2009-12-14 09:01 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Brutes are plenty survivable with willpower. With proper inspiration management you'll never die.
However if you plan on skipping taunt, you should know that willpower is not great (comparatively) at keeping aggro.
It depends. What kind of buffs are you getting from your team?
No buffs? Brutes have only slightly better mitigation over scrappers due to higher base HP.
Lots of the right buffs? Brutes share the same mitigation caps as tanks.
Overall, brute and scrapper damage output is extremely close.
Brutes and scrappers share the same base mitigation values.
Brutes and tanks share the same mitigation caps.
If you're planning to act like a tank with your brute, you'd better rethink taunt as WP's taunt aura sucks for holding aggro. Taunt + Foot Stomp will help make up for that.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Yeah I understand that...I've played my Tank so long that it going to be nice to have Super Strength but not "need" to be the lead aggro holder. |
Originally Posted by Kahlan_
Brutes are plenty survivable with willpower. With proper inspiration management you'll never die.
However if you plan on skipping taunt, you should know that willpower is not great (comparatively) at keeping aggro. |
I figure RttC and Footstomp will do the trick good enough for when I "need" to step in and "hold aggro".
I will reiterate the point that WP, aside from EA and possibly SR, is probably the weakest aggro secondary. If there are other brutes on the team, particularly a shield user or invulnerable brute, you probably won't be able to pick up aggro as easily as you like.
One thing that brutes and tanks do have in common is a lust for aggro. Of course, with a brute, it pays (in fury) to have aggro. You need to have as many incoming attacks as you can reasonably manage to benefit and boost your damage.
You might not miss taunt, however. A lot of critters will be attracted to your "gauntlet-lite". Most attacks carry something like 400% taunt, so most other villains won't pull your aggro unless it is a spicy /kin with a Fulcrum Shift. I typically don't take taunt on brutes, but I do have a few with it built in.
As for how often will you die? That depends almost entirely on you and your build. I have seen some brutes that could probably outlive the toughest of tough, and some that seem to be made of wet toilet paper. WP is good out of the box, and becomes fantastic with a great build and critters nearby to boost your regen. It seems like you already know your way around WP, so you shouldn't have too much of an issue adjusting to things on the other side of the law.
Oh yes, and as for fury keeping you upright? Yes, it will grant you a considerable damage bonus. The best debuff is -hp.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
I have no problem letting someone with better aggro management lead...especially with the Brutes ability to play as the "scrapper".
I'm starting to think that Brutes are the perfect AT for how I "want" to play.
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They'll die more then tanks will in a teaming situation, unless the team provides some good buffings/debuffing, or you spend a MINT tricking your build out with IO's. A combo of both, IE, a good build and a decent team, and you may easily feel like a tank in them situations, but when your team is lacking... you can't really make up the difference in survibility by yourself. (in general. Some crasy IO builds i think can softcap WP's defences. At which point, you'll prolly do ok reguardless) |
Originally Posted by Vitality
I understand that the Tank is primarily defensive while the Brute is primarily offensive.
I'm planning to re-create my main WP/SS Tank as a SS/WP Brute. I'm hoping I can play this character basically the same way...always leading the team...except I will not take taunt. I'm wondering if Fury is enough to keep my upright since I will not have as much defense as a Tank. Basically...how much more often do Brutes die compared to Tanks? |
As for taunt. Well... without it, your going to be losing argo to anyone who can out damage you. Even my WP/BA tank, with all his aoe attacks, still needs taunt to keep stuff glued to him, and even then i'll lose some of the argo to my teammates. it's normally minions as i make it a point to be punching the bosses/ebs/AV in da face, so they stay on me. But still, my Invlun/SS never hardly loses argo, and it happens to my WP all the time.
If you plan on any argo managment with a WP, i'm thinking it's foolish to not train taunt. If argo managment isn't that big a deal, then, well, it's not that big a deal. lol
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I play a SS/WP Brute quite often, I also have a WP/SS Tanker.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
I understand that the Tank is primarily defensive while the Brute is primarily offensive.
I'm planning to re-create my main WP/SS Tank as a SS/WP Brute. I'm hoping I can play this character basically the same way...always leading the team...except I will not take taunt. I'm wondering if Fury is enough to keep my upright since I will not have as much defense as a Tank. Basically...how much more often do Brutes die compared to Tanks? |
If you plan on heavily IOing your Brute, you will be plenty survivable for all manner of "tanking" on teams. (Focus on HP, and typed Def first. You'll want at least 30% SM/L/Nrg/Neg)
You will not be as survivable as a tank, but you will do truckloads more damage.
The difference between both will be quite noticeable early on.
However with the right buffs and support as others have said, you will be able to approach tanker levels of survivability.
Luckily, Corrupters are a popular class redside as are MMs. You'll sometimes be in Brute heavy teams, but more often there'll be corrs or MMs with you.
Don't worry about Willpower's weak taunt aura. You've already played a WP/SS tank, so you have an idea of what you face.
You won't need taunt, I don't have it and I've never needed it. Unless you're one of those people who are obsessed with always trying to have every mob aggro'd to you and you alone (I find tankers often pride themselves on this, it's unnecessary redside).
With Footstomp, and a second AoE from your patron pool (stick with either Soul Mastery or Mu and be sure to pick up one of the AoEs) you'll have no problems maintaining aggro. Just make sure you have enough rech to cycle one or the other within 13s (the duration of the taunt component).
Be mobile, play aggressively, be the first one in the fight and open up with one of your AoEs and you'll hold aggro just fine.
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Them or the Dominator, yeah. If you want durable and relentless, Brute. If you want flexible and controlling, Dominator. I tried rolling some kind of Ice themed Hero, but the combinations available blueside just didn't do it for me. Dominator is perfect, though.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
I'm starting to think that Brutes are the perfect AT for how I "want" to play.
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Run in, Footstomp, follow up with ball lightning or elec fences (or better yet both) will make aggro a non issue.
I actually like Taunt for the -range debuff on it. Despite all the negativity that the power gets, I find it to be kind of useful. It wouldn't hurt to try it out at least if you have room for it.
Question for you Villains. Ive been debating on making a Stone/Elm Tank or Elm/Stone Brute. Ive been leaning on the brute due to increased damage (& fury) since the def/res won't be that much of a difference between the tank and brute. Anyone w/ experience w/ that setup? Is the LR as awesome on a Stone as some of the other sets. I thought it would be given the slow in Granite.
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DV,|
Originally Posted by Darth_Vernon
Question for you Villains. Ive been debating on making a Stone/Elm Tank or Elm/Stone Brute. Ive been leaning on the brute due to increased damage (& fury) since the def/res won't be that much of a difference between the tank and brute. Anyone w/ experience w/ that setup? Is the LR as awesome on a Stone as some of the other sets. I thought it would be given the slow in Granite.
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Couple of things:
Unless you're planning on teaming heavily, brute damage mitigation is identical to scrapper mitigation beyond slightly higher HP.
While it is going to be painful on the end use until power sink, I think that you would have a far better time with sm/elec than you would with elec/stone.
Stone Armor is very anti-brute, in my opinion, due to all the -movement involved.
Be well, people of CoH.
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It's not that taunt isn't "kind of useful" as you put it, it's that Brutes have great choices in their patron power pools making it much harder to squeeze in.|
Originally Posted by Nurvus
I actually like Taunt for the -range debuff on it. Despite all the negativity that the power gets, I find it to be kind of useful. It wouldn't hurt to try it out at least if you have room for it.
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It's also just not very necessary Redside. Most of your fellow teammates will be able to handle themselves.
And to be honest, I've never needed it on co-op TFs either.
I can't think of a single time I was at the forefront of a team, taking alphas and controlling aggro in combat where I thought "I wish I had taunt right now."
If I had more power picks, I might take it. If it was given to me for free, I would use it.
Otherwise, I find I'm fine without it.
Bill - thanks. I was more trying to find a way around the -speed in granite and thought that Lightning Rod would help while in combat. Plus it fit thematically for my Darkseid knockoff. I was only thinking about the damage increase for Brutes as I like to solo some. Interesting thought though about the -speed and fury. I'll have to consider that. This will be my long term IO project I think. AHHHH ALTITIS!!
So you think Elec / Stone is completely gimped or just slightly?
I solo a lot. I seem to be teaming more lately, but I'd still say that 90% of my game time is spent cruising through missions alone.
I have tried on multiple occasions to use stone armor on a brute. It never works for me. In order to have speed you have to lose your mez protection and that is completely unacceptable for my balls to the wall style of bruting/scraping.
Can anything /stone armor be considered gimp after you get granite armor? Not even a little bit. Would getting there without old school power-leveling be worth it for me? Hell no.
Be well, people of CoH.
As always ur wisdom is worth its digital weight in gold. I still torn. Just cant see waiting til Stone for the sets to work well. Do you think Dark would be a better choice?
Dark better than Elec? I don't know, honestly. SM/Dark would have some serious mitigation, but the end costs would be obscene.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Vernon
Bill - thanks. I was more trying to find a way around the -speed in granite and thought that Lightning Rod would help while in combat. Plus it fit thematically for my Darkseid knockoff. I was only thinking about the damage increase for Brutes as I like to solo some. Interesting thought though about the -speed and fury. I'll have to consider that. This will be my long term IO project I think. AHHHH ALTITIS!!
So you think Elec / Stone is completely gimped or just slightly? |
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Originally Posted by Darth_Vernon
As always ur wisdom is worth its digital weight in gold. I still torn. Just cant see waiting til Stone for the sets to work well. Do you think Dark would be a better choice?
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For what I think you're looking for (a tanker like secondary for Brutes), I think you might want to look into /Invuln.
Invuln is plenty sturdy, and with a solid build can achieve impressive levels of mitigation without all of Stone Armors negatives - you'll be great both teaming and solo.
As for the Darkseid Theme, I would look to the stone costume set, mixed with other pieces. You'll actually look a lot more like Darkseid that way, then you would in Granite. Granite looks more like a stone elemental or boulder come to life.
As for primaries, DM, Elec, and EM would all fit thematically.
But for performance, DM, Elec and even SS would be my choices. You can fill out with powers from a patron to add to overall theme, and use the power customization options as well.
I would avoid Dark Armor as your first time Brute. Dark Armor is a solid set for Tankers, but it has several issues to overcome for Brutes which while not impossible would not be something I would recommend either.
D_O has a good point about Invul. Especially now that you can adjust the color spectrum or even set it to minimal FX. I'm not a big fan of Dull Pain or any of its variations, but I've seen well built Invuls in action and they are a sight to behold.
Having seen one recently was what prompted me to crank up my EM/Inv brute that will be heading blue side to be my only "tank" once GR hits live.
Be well, people of CoH.
Thanks u too. Helpful insight. I have a BS/DA Scrapper who is ridiculous, but I know a lot of that mitigation comes from the KU/KD and parry. My Invul/SS tank was my 1st toon, and is very dusty. Invul was very meh to me back in the day.
I think Im set on Elec melee (mostly for LR as a suedo BoomTube). I agree granite wouldnt really fit thematically. Nor would the Cloak of Darkness which gimps DA without. I may have to relook into Invul again. I can see some insane def coming from all the Oblit in the pbAoEs plus universal travel powers which I would use in TP Foe and Friend along w/ probably CJ. There is a huge hole for psy in Invul as eveyone knows, but I should be able to make up some of that hole w/ the psy res & def procs in the my primary. I'll probably make this a Brute for more damage.
I think Im gonna roll him up tonite actually. Anyone wanna team up Red side? Probably make him on Freedom.
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You want TYPED defense for an Invuln, not positional. Invincibility and Tough Hide both give you typed, so it would be better to build on what you already have than start from scratch with positional. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Vernon
Thanks u too. Helpful insight. I have a BS/DA Scrapper who is ridiculous, but I know a lot of that mitigation comes from the KU/KD and parry. My Invul/SS tank was my 1st toon, and is very dusty. Invul was very meh to me back in the day.
I think Im set on Elec melee (mostly for LR as a suedo BoomTube). I agree granite wouldnt really fit thematically. Nor would the Cloak of Darkness which gimps DA without. I may have to relook into Invul again. I can see some insane def coming from all the Oblit in the pbAoEs plus universal travel powers which I would use in TP Foe and Friend along w/ probably CJ. There is a huge hole for psy in Invul as eveyone knows, but I should be able to make up some of that hole w/ the psy res & def procs in the my primary. I'll probably make this a Brute for more damage. I think Im gonna roll him up tonite actually. Anyone wanna team up Red side? Probably make him on Freedom. |
I like 4 Eradication and 2 Scirocco's in PBAoEs, Aegis in resistance toggles or passives, and Kinetic Combat in ST attacks. Most of them are pretty cheap even.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Ya I did some Mids research last night and the Elec/Invul is gonna be a wicked combo. Just trying to decide the AT. Probably end up going Brute or Scrapper as def/res is easier to slot for then damage is.
I understand that the Tank is primarily defensive while the Brute is primarily offensive.
I'm planning to re-create my main WP/SS Tank as a SS/WP Brute.
I'm hoping I can play this character basically the same way...always leading the team...except I will not take taunt.
I'm wondering if Fury is enough to keep my upright since I will not have as much defense as a Tank.
Basically...how much more often do Brutes die compared to Tanks?