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I give the tank 10 seconds max to go for the next spawn and if he doesn't I'll go. Sometimes I even survive. But yeah hesitant tanks are one of the things that annoy me.
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Originally Posted by Aragain
There are many ways to play CoH but the general rule is that the tank leads, is first to grab aggro and then the rest of the team joins in. If you are the only tank and waiting for other people to go first then this will create confusion.
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As a tanker player, let me say that if my tank is hesitating it means I'm searching for the Raider Engineer/Communications Officer/Malta Sapper troublesome NPC that'll make life miserable if it's not taken on first. Holding aggro is easy enough, but that FFG/Portal/etc is going to slow things down, and nobody wants that |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I give the tank 10 seconds max to go for the next spawn and if he doesn't I'll go. Sometimes I even survive. But yeah hesitant tanks are one of the things that annoy me.
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There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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I just set a bind so I can auto target them and then hit them with a mez (or just kill them depending on character). I actually have a macro to allow me to quickly change what my target bind is set to.
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Originally Posted by BigFish
As a tanker player, let me say that if my tank is hesitating it means I'm searching for the Raider Engineer/Communications Officer/Malta Sapper troublesome NPC that'll make life miserable if it's not taken on first. Holding aggro is easy enough, but that FFG/Portal/etc is going to slow things down, and nobody wants that
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While COH is fairly lax on archetype roles (who's responsible for doing what), ie there are overlaps so certain powersets in other archetypes or highly experienced players can take on the same responsibility to an extent, players may still expect certain actions from you just because you are that archetype. Being a Tank is a prime example. |
Originally Posted by Aragain
There are many ways to play CoH but the general rule is that the tank leads, is first to grab aggro and then the rest of the team joins in. If you are the only tank and waiting for other people to go first then this will create confusion.
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Some players consider a Tank (any Tank) to be the defacto "leader". Not necessarily the Team leader, but a Tank is typically expected to lead/pave the way for the team. You'd be expected to be up front all the time, to choose which fork in the road to go, to choose which enemy group to engage first, to be the first into the enemies, to grab the attention of all the enemies, to ensure the boss enemy doesn't go after anyone else, and if necessary, to hold the line and die so the team can retreat. As you can see, Tanks come with a lot of baggage and if you don't "measure up" by the first couple of enemy groups, most likely the team will designate you as either a wannabe Scrapper or "useless" and then proceed to deal with things themselves.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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And you need not play a scrapper to scrapperlock. |
Originally Posted by peterpeter
Scrapperlock can be a fun and glorious thing.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Originally Posted by Hube02
As far as my experience goes with teams so far...
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From my point of view you've just been unlucky on your PuGing so far.
I say this as someone who almost exclusively forms and runs my own PuGs every night, and modesty-aside they're consistently very well received from everyone involved.
THE REASON I RUN MY OWN PuGs is that in my own experience, joining existing teams has always been hit-or-miss.
Sometimes you get a leader/group who really know what they're doing, are fun and chatty (not to the detriment of the mission), and won't get discouraged by an occasional faceplant or teamwipe.
Sometimes you get the Leader who Invites, waits 10 mins. before putting up the mish, never communicates, and Quits at the first sign of difficulty.
My advice to you, and it's coming at a good "age", when you're still new and open to learning and improving: Start forming and running your own PuGs. Do it NOW.
It can be *slightly* stressful at first, but like anything, the more you do it, the better at it you will get, and the more fun it will be, and in the end you can guarantee a good time for all, if you're doing it right.
I run my PuGs from the mindset of a PuG-joiner. Here are approaches that have been working well for me:
-NEVER use Blind Invites (/bind L "tell $target, Level $level-ish team LFM - join us?"). I can CONSISTENTLY form 8-man PuGs in *under 5 minutes* using this bind and the Team Search window.
-No one is EVER invited without the mish being set FIRST.
-I take TP on all my TP-capable toons to facilitate my PuGers' travel and keep the pace up.
-I communicate and guide the team, without being Bossy (I hope). [e.g. select your tank/Kheld/meatshield in the Team window and (/macro RG "REGROUP on $target now please!") if team gets Split]
-Use "gratz", "welcome!", and "ok thanks g'night!" religiously.
-Choose the next mish immediately on Exit, or explain why you haven't ("hitting contact stand by for mish...").
-As a specific response to your concern about keeping the PuG on track - IT'S ALL RELATIVE to the team's success/kill rate. If that Scrapper wants to be off by themselves doing their own thing, and they're not causing their own death or teammate deaths, or slowing the pace of the mission too much - LAY OFF. If they're causing headaches - CRACK DOWN.
If the team is split, but each group is doing okay on their own - lay off. If they split and teamwipe - crack down.
If the Controller is locking down the mob before they're well-grouped, but not causing deaths or slowing the team (and the tank isn't getting annoyed), lay off, but a Private Tell with a polite suggestion to count to 3 before locking-down, isn't out of the question.
Etc.
I know many players don't like having the star. I think I understand why. But if you try it, and keep at it, Leading becomes second-nature, and is the only sure-fire way to avoid bad PuGs. It's also a sure-fire way to control the pace of the mission, if that's your goal.
In my experience a team will respond very well to polite guidance or requests (i.e. leadership), if they can tell the Leader knows what they're doing.
Give it a shot. Do it early, get really good at it, and I guarantee it will make your CoX experience much, MUCH more enjoyable over the long run.
And if you're on Freedom, look me up, and I'll give you a taste.
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I gotta admit, I try not to enforce roles, but 'Cowardly Tankers' are indeed one of my pet peeves. Tankers can, by definition, take damn near anything thrown at them, and they'll only have to put up with the alpha strike before everyone else fires back. Brutes need less encouragement, maybe because of Fury.
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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
While COH is fairly lax on archetype roles (who's responsible for doing what), ie there are overlaps so certain powersets in other archetypes or highly experienced players can take on the same responsibility to an extent, players may still expect certain actions from you just because you are that archetype. Being a Tank is a prime example.
Some players consider a Tank (any Tank) to be the defacto "leader". Not necessarily the Team leader, but a Tank is typically expected to lead/pave the way for the team. You'd be expected to be up front all the time, to choose which fork in the road to go, to choose which enemy group to engage first, to be the first into the enemies, to grab the attention of all the enemies, to ensure the boss enemy doesn't go after anyone else, and if necessary, to hold the line and die so the team can retreat. As you can see, Tanks come with a lot of baggage and if you don't "measure up" by the first couple of enemy groups, most likely the team will designate you as either a wannabe Scrapper or "useless" and then proceed to deal with things themselves. |
Hube,
Should you be Virtue, look for me using my global @fantastic foe, if you add the Podcaste channel (the global channel of the excellent City of Heroes podcast, hosted by Chooch and Viv) then you would see my global name appear no matter what character I am playing.
I'd be delighted to duo, to form a small team, to join your team, to work on getting a big team, to invite you to Amazing Monday (when the Amazing SG and their coallies ( I must coally)) team up.
I'm a fan of pulling when it's called for, but in my experience, a team can easily move as a unit from group to group, and should survive the occasional addition of a nearby mob. That's exciting.
When a team flips out and spreads to the winds engaging multiple groups, well, I won't lie, I secretly love that because it's crazy exciting, and if we win, it's epic. But I don't encourage that.
I thumbs up people who reports statuses, who suggest targets, and who keep a perspective on what the team is doing.
Good job on solo tanking, my first 50 mostly soloed to 50 (except when the at-the-time mandatory Archvillains required teaming) and I got to observe all the maps carefully, experienced a ton of content, etc. But solo missioning and teaming are pretty different, you don't have to be as cautious with a team, unless the difficulty has been set way high, and then, it's still a dramatically different experience than soloing with a higher diff.
Best regards, and welcome to the game
Virtue Server-
MA: (All SFMA, all technically long/very long, but all play quickly)
#200411 "Exploding Planet" (I apologize in advance for the final mission, but in all likelihood, the planet will explode.)
#144416 "Shadow of Grime Alley"
#161003 "You Don't Know Beanstalk, Jack"
Still appreciating the comments. Since starting this thread I have had some good experiences with teams. And yes, in teams I, as the Tank, go first, get their attention, and then the rest of the team joins in, then I do my best to make sure I keep their attention. There is a large difference between what I do when I'm solo and when in a team. It does help when the other team members cooperate and allow me to lead the way.
On the other hand, in between fights, I'd still like to get a good look around. Which is tough to do when the other members of the team run off in 2 or 3 or as many directions as there are other team members. Sometimes this leaves me with my jaw hanging.
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I suspect the problem there is experience. The game has a limited number of maps and even though the total number is pretty high, the number of tilesets is a lot lower. Additionally the maps are largely pieced together from a small-ish number of sections that are arranged in different ways. This means that for people who have been playing awhile even if you don't remember the exact map layout you learn the sections well enough that you have a pretty good idea of where you should be heading to find more enemies to beat up. There are times when as you say the team splits because different people have different ideas as to the best way to clear the map in which case a "please follow the tank" normally works. Of course this assumes that the tank knows where to go |
Originally Posted by Hube02
On the other hand, in between fights, I'd still like to get a good look around. Which is tough to do when the other members of the team run off in 2 or 3 or as many directions as there are other team members. Sometimes this leaves me with my jaw hanging.
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Yeah. After about 3 years in, I had all the office rooms, cave chambers, outdoor maps, corridors, intersections, etc pretty much memorized. Now at 5 years, I don't think I can get lost if I tried. I know which spots in the room the enemies will be if I was solo and if I was on a full team (they're slightly different). I know which are the trap rooms and intersections (where there is another group of enemies just out of your sight but you must inevitably reveal yourself to/aggro as you engage the obvious enemy group/door/etc.)
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
I'm glad to see you're getting better and dying less. Some points I'd like to make (the list is expanding as I go...)
1) Pickup groups will often have a startling degree of incompetence, as you have discovered. When I was starting on new servers, I'd tend to join pickup groups, find [on average] one person who doesn't suck, use the /friend or /globalfriend command [people can and do reject /globalfriend; don't take it personally, there's a limit on the size and your global friends can find you anywhere at any time. Some people aren't comfortable with that.] You do that six or eight times and when you log on you can USUALLY find someone you know, who MAY be doing something you can get in on, or that you can invite to your team.
2) Let people on your team know that you're new- a lot of people are very supportive of new players.
3) One of the things which is VERY different in this game is the power of armors, buffs, debuffs, etc. The survivability difference between a totally undefended character and that same character with the full attention of a midlevel Force Field defender is a factor, literally, of 10. 9 out of 10 "would-be" hits become misses. (Most people find PLAYING a force field defender kinda boring. I'm the exception; maybe I'm boring?)
Edit to clarify 3): Sometimes, because people get used to being buffed and tough, when they're starting out a new character they die a lot. Sometimes people die a lot because they're incompetent, have no patience, and blame everyone but themselves for their screwups. You'll probably know which type is which pretty fast.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Many players would not know tactics (the practice, not the power of the same name) if it walked up and outraged them in the public square at high noon.
That said, one may differ on certain tactical plans:
- I agree with stopping before going around the corner, to see what is waiting there, but don't agree (given the way the game works) with scouting the whole map in advance.
- Which raises the difference between tactics in CoH and tactics in the real world. The AI lets us get away with stuff that wouldn't fool a preoccupied duckling outside of CoH. Pulling one small group of enemies from a larger group standing a few feet away. Piling up enemies in melee rage at corners. Enemies forgetting they were just attacked if you run far and fast enough (not to mention most enemies losing interest in you if you make it to a doorway or elevator). Free healing (in Everquest, if I recall correctly, enemies reacted to a healer as if the damage he healed to his allies were damage he'd inflicted on the enemies).
- So tactics in CoX is a mix of actual tactical use of ground, fields of fire, position, insofar as the engine allow those factors to play a role, and applying, in essence, exploits of the AI's limitations. We are outsmarting the programmers as much, or more, as we are outsmarting the opponents we face in play.
- The game tends to support stand-up fights on both sides (PCs and NPCs). Mnay given teams can either win a fight handily, or if outgunned, must hit and run until they whittle down the particular opponent.
And we are fighting superpowered villains, yes, even the skeevy minions of the less powerful groups, so sometimes all the tactical advantage in the world won't carry the day.
I observe that players who solo a lot (I do) are more sensitive to looking at the tactical situation a bit more closely, and trying to use it to their advantage. By the same token, that may be one reason the zerg (massed frontal attack) is more common in teams.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
some good advice to get started: solo for the first few levels to get used to the game and what your character can do. once you're comfortable with that, join a few pick up teams. if you're red side, just do your thing and complement the team. if you're blue side, your team tactics would depend on your AT.
also, freedom server is the most populated, but virtue is near the same population with a very nice community and good players.
also, from your original post it sounds like you would enjoy the stalker AT if you like melee. if ranged or control/buff/debuff/heals is your bag, then there's a plethora of ATs to suit your tastes.
"Scrappers don't want the bit of dignity that Brutes left them taken away by (lol)Stalkers." -Delta_Strider, on Stalker buffs.
Current Project: Hard Goodbye, StJ/Nin
Retired: Blitzwulf, Claws/Nin (50); Perdition's Blade, Night Widow (50)
When I first played the game I was terrified of acquiring debt. I didn't want it to slow me down, so death was not an option (until I hit 50, then it didn't matter and I needed the badge work). But after so many years of playing you kinda become immune to it. Espeically with so many changes to the debt system and XP system. Back in the day many PUGs I was involved with were very insistent on strategy, following as the leader dictated. Or you'd be kicked. But again times have changed.
It's my experience that after enough team wipes either people will wise up and accept a plan or give up and be on their way. And those are the ones you don't want to play with anyway.
I think these days strategy really comes into play with some of the tougher Arch Villains or certain mob types. But those aren't as common. I'm usually fine with any method of play. Team wipes can be fun(ny). And when a plan comes together in a tougher situation (Lord of Winter with only two teams), that can be equally as satisfying.
I play on Virtue and there are a lot of good players out there. That said, part of your problem may be playing with players so experienced that they know the map like the back of their Vanguard gloves.
But I PuG a whole LOT, and I almost always have good to at least decent experiences. Most of the time I'm at the upper end of levels though so I'm sure that makes a difference.
Also, it sounds like part of your problem is not so much a desire to scout and be cautious, but simply to explore. A lot of players have forgotten how to do that since they've seen the same maps so many times. I must admit, I usually only get that urge when I'm on a Task Force, since many of those have unique maps that I almost never see and some of them are really neat, but even there I'm usually on a team that wants to rush through and finish as fast as possible.
Then again, I usually play scrappers so I'm normally all for rushing in. Given that most of my scrappers are built to take an alpha strike themselves, I'm not afraid to jump in if the tank hesitates. ^_^
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Absolutely. I can put up with a lot of different play styles, aberrant behavior, dumb jokes, etc., but people that quit the moment things go bad are not the kind of people I want to play with. I've rarely been in situations where things were actually impossible, and when that happens usually the whole team can agree and change things up or move on to something else.
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Originally Posted by Tidbit
It's my experience that after enough team wipes either people will wise up and accept a plan or give up and be on their way. And those are the ones you don't want to play with anyway.
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my lil RWZ Challenge vid
Well, it's been a while longer and I have been able to find others that feel as I do.... however the one thing that annoys me the most is.... (well, i'm not sure of the technical term) ... but when another member of the team makes me super fast so that just tapping the "w" key sends me across a giant room making it completely impossible to navigate.
I don't mind death, you even get badges for paying off debt, but I doubt I will ever like rushing to the end and completing the mish a fast a possible and running to the next one (even when I've done the same one with 3 other characters). Maybe it is because I detest chaos and enjoy organization.
Take for instance a protect or mayhem mission (not sure of the exact term, the one where you're protecting the banck). When I do this in a team everyone rushes in, defeats the guards and rushes to the vault. However, when I'm alone I pull the group in the first room to the door and I position myself there. 1) The boss in the vault has to go out the front door 2) the 15 minute timer does not start until I've defeated the boss. I simply need to wait a moment till he/she comes to me and keep him/her from leaving. 3) I also like looking for those side missions which most teams do not do, at least not in my experience. I even stayed behind once to do them on my own and got begged by the leader to please exit because they wanted to rush to the next mish.
Here's a question: How do I state, politely, in my search comment, that I am not looking for this type of team? How do I tell the team, politely, that I'm leaving because I do not like the way they go about things? I've tried and generally what I get is a lot of hate from the team leader and other members about how wrong I am for leaving.
This last part is the biggest sticking point, If the game is full of hateful people that can't take a simple "Your style of play is not my cup of tea" then I do not see much future in my staying. From my 2 months of experience this seems the norm rather than the exception. Have I simply been unlucky?
I really enjoy teams, when those in the team are not simply looking to rush through it just to get the XP and move on. What I've taken to doing is to say, "I have time for one mish and then I have to log", then I see how it goes, if it's good I then say, "well, maybe just one more". If if goes badly (which is more then 75% of the time), then I leave, go to a day job location and log off for a while. And still, I get hateful comments about how inconsiderate it is to leave the team or that I'm just a freeloader, even after telling them up front that I'll only do one and see how it goes.
Hube - As far as leaving the team, I would recommend simply thanking them for the team, saying you need to go for a bit and hitting quit. Any attempt to explain that you prefer to play differently is more likely than not to be taken as "YOU are playing wrong."
E-chat is the very dickens of a medium for anything one says being taken in the worst possible way.
I must agree, I've never been clear myself on bank missions (as either hero or villain) why people go rushing off to meet the Big Bad on his chosen ground, with all his sideboys in tow, rather than setting up a nice killing zone in the lobby (if you are a hero) or at the choke point leading into the vault area (if you are a villain). But chacun a son gout and all that.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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Actually, there is a third aspect as well, team wipes continue, and those involved in causing them continue with the same course of action that cause the team wipes, and ignores ALL recommendations/requests to attempt things differently.|
Originally Posted by Organica
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I've been on a team like that. Where my suggestions to say, pull, were met with "Dude, quit your whining or you're going to get kicked from the team."
o.O
Quitting a team like that, is not a sign that a player will quit at the drop of the hat when things get difficult.
<---not a dude, by the way.
Hube, I'm right there with you on the non-speed runs, especially with safeguard/mayhem missions. You might want to form your own teams and state to every player that accepts an invite what your intentions are as far as running the missions.
Have you ever thought about joining RP groups? Rather than just 'running missions' your character and those of your team (or team you're on) are working through tasks assigned by authorities. May I suggest you give the Teamsters down on Protector a try. You might also want to check out the Mentor Project.
In regards to being made very fast, you're getting buffed by a Kinetics player with Speed Boost, aka "SB", (+endrecv, +recharge, +movement speed). Many players complain about the +speed portion of it when they're new or due to physical condition can't handle the faster reaction time required to manage it. Back in the day, I had to pick up Superspeed for a few months to get the hang of moving fast all of the time. The trick is learn not to hold down your movement keys, just quick taps. Or target foe (Tab, Ctrl-Tab, or click select) and press F (follow) to beeline and be glued to the target.
Your play style request is more difficult to answer. The problem is that you're playing a game that's been around for a while and which has many veteran players. And these players are very familiar with the missions and have a good grasp of what their characters can do. Some are also likely to need to push the envelop to get their adrenalin high.
The only thing I can suggest to avoid this would be to start and lead your own teams. As a team leader, you'll have more weigth to set ground rules and be picky about who you'll play with. Of course, try not be a tyrant about it. Have you joined Virtue's global channels for team recruitment? You could state that you're recruiting for a laid back mission team doing a story arc, no speed runs, etc.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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Safeguard missions (and probably Mayhems as well) are in my experience the number two killer of teams (the number one is the leader quitting). The problem is that there are a lot of different ways of doing them and everyone has their own preference. I enjoy doing the side missions but I also use maps so that I know ahead of time exactly where they are and can limit the street sweeping required. Some people like to street sweep the missions to get to the sides and others like to skip the sides entirely. At the same time when on a team it's important to consider the opinions of everyone not just the leader. I'll generally ask if people are ok doing the sides and go with the majority opinion. In the case you stated if I was the team leader I would have sent you a tell asking you to exit the mission and then kicked you if you didn't. The team can't move on until everyone exits the mission so if the decision of the team is to not do the sides if you aren't willing to go along with that then you don't belong on the team. It's not a matter of right or wrong it's a matter of not fitting with the team style.|
Originally Posted by Hube02
Take for instance a protect or mayhem mission (not sure of the exact term, the one where you're protecting the banck). When I do this in a team everyone rushes in, defeats the guards and rushes to the vault. However, when I'm alone I pull the group in the first room to the door and I position myself there. 1) The boss in the vault has to go out the front door 2) the 15 minute timer does not start until I've defeated the boss. I simply need to wait a moment till he/she comes to me and keep him/her from leaving. 3) I also like looking for those side missions which most teams do not do, at least not in my experience. I even stayed behind once to do them on my own and got begged by the leader to please exit because they wanted to rush to the next mish.
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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
The only thing I can suggest to avoid this would be to start and lead your own teams. As a team leader, you'll have more weigth to set ground rules and be picky about who you'll play with. Of course, try not be a tyrant about it. Have you joined Virtue's global channels for team recruitment? You could state that you're recruiting for a laid back mission team doing a story arc, no speed runs, etc.
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Speed Boost (SB) can be a real pain in the ### for those not used to it. My very first character was a Kin/Arch and I would SB everyone, not realizing the difficulties it presents a.) with certain players play styles, b.) indoor maps, and c.) travel powers.
When people asked to not be SB'd, I would oblige. Now, when teaming, I ask if people do not want to be SB'd.
While yes, the 'run and smash' strategy might work, if you look closer at the team that can do such consistently without death, you'll probably find most of the players have something specific they're doing strategy-wise to keep the teams rolling.
While many other games' strategies may be by 'class' City of Villains and Heroes is a bit different: it's by powerset, more than anything. A character using stone armor is very different than a character using energy aura. An empathy defender is a vastly different team member than a trick archer defender. Add to this, there are vary many different strategies that come up when you combine them. One electric blast character simply does electric attacks; eight can stop just about any enemy in the game from attacking.
If you want to find a more strategic approach, you may also want to fight the enemies many of those "smash in, smash out" teams avoid. Carnival of Shadows, Malta, things like those: the more difficult foes in the game actually need a little more cohesion/thought to take them down. (Unless your team brings characters that trivialize those enemy's strategies.)
There are many ways to play CoH but the general rule is that the tank leads, is first to grab aggro and then the rest of the team joins in. If you are the only tank and waiting for other people to go first then this will create confusion.
I'm not trying to slap your playstyle on the the wrist in any way. I'm simply saying that the way you want to play is not what most people are expecting and creates a disconnected team. If you want to PUG you will have to learn to lead and absorb the alpha.
I understand your dilemma though. When I first started playing there is no way I could navigate the map and know how to control things to keep the team afloat. Playing a tank as your first character is really getting thrown into the fire right away.
If you want to continue to tank cautiously you would probably find it more enjoyable to find a like-minded group as has already been mentioned.
Another option is to try a non-lead character in order to see the flow of how things typically go. I understand people have their fav AT and I'm not trying to talk you out of tanking. I'm saying if you are not in the lead role you have more time to look around and observe.
I think I played the game for a year before I felt confident enough to play a tank.
Anyway, a lot of good replies here and you have several options to make the game fun for you.