Shield/SS or Shield/EM

A friend and I have rolled a couple of new toons to dual together. He's running a blaster, and I decided to roll a tank.

I currently have a level 50 Invul/SS and a level 50 Stone/Stone.

The characters are actually the sisters of two other toons that we've played to 50. Originally, the concept for my Shield Tank was going to be she lacked the mutant powers of her brother (who's a Controller), so she picked up a sewer manhole cover to use as a shield and was going to get by on sheer moxie ... she was going to be a Natural Tank.

That sort of origin lended itself to SS, but I didn't really feel like playing another SS Tank as I remembered how unsatisfying the set had felt until I got Rage. I went with EM because it was a new set for me and changed her origin to make her a mutant like her brother.

Now I find myself wondering if the combo of Against All Odds and Rage might make Shield/SS worth playing after all ... might make it more fun than Shield/EM.

So restricting it to those two sets, which would you say is more fun to play? Which synergizes better with Shield?

And what am I going to find different about tanking as a Shield Tank?

Well, I'd certainly go with SS over EM; while I haven't played SS to a significant level I HAVE played an EM tank to 50 and it was fairly painful to level even in issue 7.

Another thought might be a Shield/Mace using one of the custom weapons... how about a manhole cover in one hand and a shovel in the other? Your basic construction site sledgehammer? Mace as I understand it has some decent AOE and packs a wallop nowadays.

While I applaud your choice of Shield/EM, rather than one of the other FOTMs, I have one and like him Lots, have you considered Shield/Dark Melee? It 'feels' awesome, looks dangerous, and performs quite well!

Build with the 'Elemental Dark' shield and you'll be carrying a 'nexus of screaming souls'... or something similar.

Be Well!
Fireheart

My vote for Shield/SS. Unfortunately /EM has been a shadow of its former self since the nerf bat hit it pretty hard one year ago.

Coupling a primary without any regen/heal ability with a secondary hurting your hit points doesn't strike me as a good combo. It's probably workable just like everything is, and possibly fun seeing high damage numbers from ET and TF while AaO is saturated ; I doubt it's as efficient as other choices though.

I currently have a level 50 Shield/SS Tank with 45% Melee/Range/AOE Defence. He is a beast in PVE. I have Energy Torrent, Foot Stomp and Shield Charge as my normal start of my attack chain. They provide great damage mitigation by keeping mobs on their backs most of the time. Then Knockout blow + Haymaker are great for putting the hurt on the bosses. I actually respeced out Rage in favor of having another attack for use. I found AAO pretty sufficient as is.

I also dropped out a travel power in favor of Ninja run. I went with Maneuvers over Combat Jumping for the little extra defense and to make him even a bit nicer on teams for the synergy with Grant Cover.

I found Shield/SS to be great for running through massive groups and just having a team that keeps a crazy pace.

Not my exact current build but this will give you an idea of what mine looks like. (Slotting all done via respec I forget the actual order I went with in levels.)
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Iron Joe: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(3), S'dpty-Def(3), Aegis-ResDam(5), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(5), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Jab -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- S'dpty-Def(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(7), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(9)
Level 4: True Grit -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(9), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(11), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(17)
Level 6: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 8: Against All Odds -- Taunt-I(A), EndRdx-I(13)
Level 10: Maneuvers -- S'dpty-Def(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(13), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(15)
Level 12: Haymaker -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(33), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mako-Dam%(34)
Level 14: Phalanx Fighting -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(15), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(17), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 16: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(19), Heal-I(19)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(23), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mako-Dam%(31)
Level 24: Taunt -- Zinger-Dam%(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(36)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(27), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(27), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Oblit-%Dam(31)
Level 28: Grant Cover -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A)
Level 30: Kick -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(A), KinCrsh-Acc/KB(37), KinCrsh-Rchg/KB(37), KinCrsh-Rechg/EndRdx(37), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(40), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB(42)
Level 32: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(33), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(33)
Level 35: Weave -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), RedFtn-EndRdx(43)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Oblit-%Dam(40)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Laser Beam Eyes -- ShldBrk-DefDeb(A), ShldBrk-Acc/DefDeb(45), ShldBrk-Acc/Rchg(45), ShldBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ShldBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(46), ShldBrk-%Dam(46)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(A), P'Shift-EndMod(48), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(48), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Energy Torrent -- Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg(50), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(50), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet

I would steer clear away from EM. Shields makes for a very aggressive and powerful with excellent damage. Adding SS to the equation would give even more damage. In their current incarnations, I feel SS is a superior set to EM in all categories.

EM has laughable AoE, and the stuns are problematic for a tanker who likes constant aggro. Also, the set is slow, and still feels underwhelming. It may not be true, but I find a good KO Blow is vastly superior to Energy Transfer or Total Focus, and it comes earlier and has no penalty attached.

Sure, SS has the whole rage penalty crash to work out, but it is completely manageable.

Also, I feel like a SD/SS is much more in line with your concept than a SD/EM.

that said, comparing Shield/SS and Shield/EM on a threat basis: (threat is listed in millions and based on unenhanced statistics)

Note: I was just supplied with a bit of information regarding one of the modifiers I was using in my threat formula, as such, these values are a bit off. Essentially, they have to be divided by 2.050 (was unaware that modifier was already included in taunt duration values.) Will fix the numbers later. The comparison is proportionally unchanged.

I've estimated AAO to produce .221 threat per proc. However, it also buffs your damage (+10% per opponent), which buffs the threat of your other powers.

That said, looking at the two sets:

Energy Melee has the following powers (5 targets max unless otherwise stated):
Barrage: 6.5 threat at 3.4 ft radius with a 6 second recharge and 1.33 animation time
Energy Punch: 4.925 threat at at 5 ft radius with a 4 second recharge and .83 animation time
Bone Smasher: 8.077 threat at 8.2 ft radius with an 8 second recharge and 1.5 animation time
Taunt: .672 threat at 15 ft radius with a 10 second recharge and 1.67 animation time
Whirling Hands: 4.925 threat at 8 ft radius - 10 targets max with a 14 second recharge and 2.5 animation time
Stun: 2.462 threat at 9.8 ft radius with a 20 second recharge and 1.8 animation time
Energy Transfer: 22.457 threat at 11.4 ft radius with a 20 second recharge and 2.67 animation time
Total Focus: 35.065 threat at 17.8 ft radius with a 20 second recharge and 3.3 animation time

Against all Odds adds the following threat to each power:
Barrage: +.65 threat per opponent
Energy Punch: +.4925 threat per opponent
Bone Smasher: +.8077 threat per opponent
Taunt: no damage, no added threat
Whirling Hands: +.4925 threat per opponent
Stun: +.2462 threat per opponent
Energy Transfer: +2.2457 threat per opponent
Total Focus: +3.5065 threat per opponent

Build up adds the following threat to each power:
Barrage: +5.2
Energy Punch: +3.94
Bone Smasher: +6.462
Whirling Hands: +3.94
Stun: +1.97
Energy Transfer: +17.966
Total Focus: +28.052

Super Strength has the following powers

Super Strength 75% to hit
Jab: 3.349 threat at a 3.4 ft radius with a 2 second recharge with a 1.07 animation time
Punch: 4.925 threat at a 5 ft radius with a 4 second recharge with a 1.2 animation time
Haymaker: 8.077 threat at a 8.2 ft radius with an 8 second recharge with a 1.5 animation time
Taunt: 0.672 at a 15 ft radius with a 10 second recharge with a 1.67 animation time
Hand Clap: 0.221 at a 15 ft radius - 10 targets max with a 30 second recharge with a 1.23 animation time
Knockout Blow: 35.065 at a 17.8 ft radius with a 25 second recharge with a 2.23 animation time
Hurl: 16.153 at a 8.2 ft radius with an 8 second recharge and 80 ft range with a 2.5 animation time
Foot Stomp: 6.993 at a 15 ft radius with a 20 second recharge with a 2.1 animation time

Against All Odds would add the following threat:
Jab: +.3349 per opponent
Punch: +.4925 per opponent
Haymaker: +.8077 per opponent
Taunt: No damage, no increase
Hand Clap: No damage, no increase
Knockout Blow: +3.5065 per opponent
Hurl: +1.6153 per opponent
Foot Stomp: +.6993 per opponent

Rage adds the following estimated threat
Jab: +2.679
Punch: +3.94
Haymaker: +6.462
Taunt: No damage, no increase
Hand Clap: No damage, no increase
Knockout Blow: +28.052
Hurl: +12.922
Foot Stomp: +5.594

It is possible to perma-rage, which means that while the build up and rage have the same bonuses, the overall increase to both threat and damage from rage is superior (minus the end-rage drop)

Continuing on threat, let's assume a raw alpha attack chain dumping all of the previous powers with max damage enhancement from Against All Odds and Rage/Build Up:

Barrage: 18.2 threat to 5 targets, 91 threat total
Energy Punch: 13.79 threat to 5 targets, 68.95 threat total
Bone Smasher: 22.6156 threat to 5 targets, 113.078 threat total
Taunt: 0.672 threat to 5 targets, 3.36 threat total
Whirling Hands: 13.79 threat to 10 targets, 137.9 threat total
Stun: 6.8936 threat to 5 targets, 34.468 threat total
Energy Transfer: 62.8796 threat to 5 targets, 314.398 threat total
Total Focus: 98.182 threat to 5 targets, 490.91 threat total

1254.064 total threat applied
125.4064 threat per opponent (averaged over 10 targets)
237.0228 threat can be applied to one target if not rotating targets

15.6 second attack chain

80.3887 overall threat per second
8.03887 average threat per second
15.1938 focused threat per second

9.825 average radius (not taken into account)

Given the build up will wear out before the attack chain finishes, I'm going to re-do stats based on Energy Punch, Stun and Taunt being at the end of the chain.

Nothing would be lost on Taunt since it isn't enhanced by damage anyway (no damage to start unless a damage proc is slotted, but that doesn't seem affected by damage boost either)

Moving from a *2.8 dam modifier to a *2 modifier means a roughly 71.43% reduction meaning a loss of 3.94 threat from Energy Punch, * 5, total loss of 19.7 threat; and a loss of 1.9696 threat from stun, * 5 total loss of 9.848 threat.

A grand total lost threat of 29.548.

producing new rates of:

1224.516 total threat applied
122.4516 threat per opponent (averaged over 10 targets)
231.1132 threat can be applied to one target if not rotating targets

78.4946 overall threat per second
7.84946 average threat per second
14.8149 focused threat per second

And, even assuming that you can instantly attack with the same chain (you can't, see below) the next chain would have a 71% reduction of the first listed unfeasible threats:

895.778 total threat applied
89.5778 threat per opponent (averaged over 10 targets)
169.3053 threat can be applied to one target if not rotating targets

57.4216 overall threat per second
5.74216 average threat per second
10.8529 focused threat per second

If you attacked in this order to make best use of build up:

Whirling Hands -> Energy Transfer -> Total Focus -> Bone Smasher -> Barrage -> Energy Punch -> Stun -> Taunt

Then, by the end of the chain the following powers are recharged:

None

Whirling Hands will recharge in .9 seconds
Energy Transfer will recharge in 9.57 seconds
Total Focus will recharge in 12.87 seconds
Bone Smasher will recharge in 2.37 seconds
Barrage will recharge in 1.7 seconds
Energy Punch will recharge in .53 seconds
Stun will recharge in 18.33 seconds
Taunt will recharge in 10 seconds

Taking out the 10+ second recharges, I have the following attack chain:

Energy Punch -> Barrage -> Bone Smasher

at which point you have to wait for the following recharges:

Energy Punch: .34 seconds
Barrage: 3.67 seconds
Bone Smasher: 8 seconds

The produced threat would be (not including build-up as it would be assumed that BU is saved for when big attacks are ready):
Barrage: 13 threat on five targets, 65 threat total
Energy Punch: 9.85 threat on five targets, 49.25 threat total
Bone Smasher: 16.154 threat on five targets, 80.77 threat total

195.02 total threat applied
19.502 threat per opponent (averaged over 10 targets)
39.004 threat can be applied to one target if not rotating targets

3.66 second attack chain

53.2842 overall threat per second
5.32842 average threat per second
10.657 focused threat per second

5.4 average radius (not taken into account)

*******************************

Superstrength by comparison:

Jab: 9.3772 threat to 5 targets, 46.886 threat total
Punch: 13.79 threat to 5 targets, 68.95 threat total
Haymaker: 22.6156 threat to 5 targets, 113.078 threat total
Taunt: 0.672 threat to 5 targets, 3.36 threat total
Handclap: .221 threat to 10 targets, 2.21 threat total
Knockout Blow: 98.182 threat to 5 targets, 490.91 threat total
Hurl: 45.2284 threat to 5 targets, 226.142 threat total
Foot Stomp: 19.5804 threat to 10 targets, 195.804 threat total

1147.34 total threat applied
114.734 threat per opponent (averaged over 10 targets)
209.6666 threat can be applied to one target if not rotating targets

13.5 second attack chain

84.9881 overall threat per second
8.49881 average threat per second
15.4167 focused threat per second

10.95 average radius (not taken into account)

Rage is still running after 13.5 seconds and will continue to run so the same threat rates apply.

The attack chain is more flexible because of the longer damage boost duration allowing you to intersperse quicker and slower powers so that you can make best use of recharge:

Foot Stomp -> Haymaker -> Punch -> Hurl -> Knockout Blow -> Jab -> Hand Clap -> Taunt

Then the powers recharged at the end of the attack chain would then be:

Haymaker, Punch and Jab

Hurl will recharge in 1.8 seconds
Foot Stomp will recharge in 6.4 seconds
Knockout Blow will recharge in 21.06 seconds
Hand Clap will recharge in 28.33 seconds
Taunt will recharge in 10 seconds

Dropping the 10+ recharges, you have the following attack chain:

Jab -> Haymaker -> Punch -> Jab -> Hurl -> Jab -> Punch

At which point you have the following wait times:

Jab: .8 seconds
Punch: 4 seconds
Haymaker: .96 seconds
Hurl: 5.73 seconds

The threat produced here would be:

The produced threat would be (rage included as it is still running strong):
Jab: 9.3772 threat to 5 targets 3 times, 140.658 threat total
Punch: 13.79 threat to 5 targets twice, 137.9 threat total
Haymaker: 22.6156 threat to 5 targets, 113.078 threat total
Hurl: 45.2284 threat to 5 targets, 226.142 threat total

617.778 total threat applied
61.7778 threat per opponent (averaged over 10 targets)
123.5556 threat can be applied to one target if not rotating targets

9.61 second attack chain

64.2849 overall threat per second
6.42849 average threat per second
12.857 focused threat per second

6.15 average radius (not taken into account)

From my SS/Shield Brute, I can tell you that pairing works very well indeed and is great fun to play.

As for the rage crash, if you have perma-rage, and maintain it, you get the damage crash, but not the defence crash. If you forget to fire Rage before it ends then you will get the def crash for sure, but that's only going to happen if you dont have enough recharge to perma it (which is easy to do) or you are out of combat and don't need it anyway.