Shield/SS or Shield/EM


AlienMafia

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
INV and ICE ARMOR are defensed based sets, and they've had to deal with that crash longer than SR or SHIELD.
INV can be more Defense based or more Resistance based, depending on your build preference. Bear in mind, with the resistances built into INV, it makes surviving the Rage crash much more feasable than with pure DEF based sets.


Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior View Post
Are you sure about that? I've noticed the Defense crash even with Perma Rage.
I have a Shield/SS that I have played quite a bit. You do not get the -defense crash with perma-rage. I have a box with my defense numbers available while I play. The damage penalty can be annoying but Rage is still a must pick power for me.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by GooMatt745 View Post
I have a Shield/SS that I have played quite a bit. You do not get the -defense crash with perma-rage. I have a box with my defense numbers available while I play. The damage penalty can be annoying but Rage is still a must pick power for me.
That's interesting... I notice the defense numbers dropping the 20% (in the Combat Attributes window) when Rage crashes on mine. I've got it stacking for ~30 seconds and when it wears off, my total positional defense drops 20%.


Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior View Post
INV can be more Defense based or more Resistance based, depending on your build preference. Bear in mind, with the resistances built into INV, it makes surviving the Rage crash much more feasable than with pure DEF based sets.
While I wouldn't call INV a more resistance based set, you're right, it does have it's resistance to cover itself more than the pure defense based sets.

However, my point was more a reply to the fact that there was defense based sets, before SHield and SR.

ICE ARMOR being the big one.

ENERGY AURA being another one on the brute side of things.

And even then, they all have ways to cover for the -Defense...

SHIELD has +HP and Resistance.

SR has scaling resists

ICE has -DMG aura

EA has some resists and energy drain.

And if I remember correctly, the crash doesn't do a complete DEFENSE CRASH, but rather you lose a chunk of it.

And it's not like I'm against the removal of the crash, it's just not something I would say needs to be done to it. It's just that, if you think the crash is to much to deal with on your defense based toon...don't make that combo.

This is also me not wanting to see Raged nerfed/changed from where it is. I like it where it is right now


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

I understand what you were saying.

Yes, the Rage crash isn't a total Defense crash. It's a 20% Defense debuff for 10 seconds. I think the point was that DEF based sets (that offer little in the way of RES) will feel that 20% debuff a lot more than RES based sets. Since there are more DEF based sets in the game now, it might be worth looking into that DEF debuff at some point.


Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior View Post
I understand what you were saying.

Yes, the Rage crash isn't a total Defense crash. It's a 20% Defense debuff for 10 seconds. I think the point was that DEF based sets (that offer little in the way of RES) will feel that 20% debuff a lot more than RES based sets. Since there are more DEF based sets in the game now, it might be worth looking into that DEF debuff at some point.
Actually, a lot of Def-based builds can pass soft-cap easier than Res-based builds can get to cap.

You're only going to feel the defense debuff that takes you below the soft-cap.

Meanwhile a pure RES based set with no DEF will feel every part of that debuff for the simple fact that they have no padding to soften the blow.


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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Lycanus View Post
You're only going to feel the defense debuff that takes you below the soft-cap.
The soft cap of 45% reduced by the Rage crash to 25% positional defense is a joke. You have to keep in mind, not every player uses pools/IO set bonuses to maximize their defense. Nor are powersets balanced around IO set bonuses. SR slotted with SOs (not including pools) is around 30% Defense (you can reach the cap with pools). This is what the survivability of this set is built around. 30% positional is not that great to begin with, then couple that with the Rage crash debuff and you mind as well not have any toggles on for 10 seconds.

Quote:
Meanwhile a pure RES based set with no DEF will feel every part of that debuff for the simple fact that they have no padding to soften the blow.
A set built around resistance does not really care about a pure defense debuff since their survivability is based around resisting damage, not avoiding it.

The DEF debuff on Rage crashing should be looked at. There are a lot more DEF based sets for tanks and brutes now to warrant it.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA View Post
The soft cap of 45% reduced by the Rage crash to 25% positional defense is a joke. You have to keep in mind, not every player uses pools/IO set bonuses to maximize their defense. Nor are powersets balanced around IO set bonuses. SR slotted with SOs (not including pools) is around 30% Defense (you can reach the cap with pools). This is what the survivability of this set is built around. 30% positional is not that great to begin with, then couple that with the Rage crash debuff and you mind as well not have any toggles on for 10 seconds.



A set built around resistance does not really care about a pure defense debuff since their survivability is based around resisting damage, not avoiding it.

The DEF debuff on Rage crashing should be looked at. There are a lot more DEF based sets for tanks and brutes now to warrant it.
Assume 100 attacks of 10 damage each.

The pure defense fighter pre-crash will be hit 20 times for 200 damage.
After the crash, they will be hit 40 times for 400 damage.

A resist-based defense with 50% resistance will be hit 50 times for 250 damage (500 reduced by half).
A resist-based defense after crash will be hit 70 times for 350 damage (700 reduced by half). Hmm, they will be hurt less, interesting.


Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanus View Post
Assume 100 attacks of 10 damage each.

The pure defense fighter pre-crash will be hit 20 times for 200 damage.
After the crash, they will be hit 40 times for 400 damage.

A resist-based defense with 50% resistance will be hit 50 times for 250 damage (500 reduced by half).
A resist-based defense after crash will be hit 70 times for 350 damage (700 reduced by half). Hmm, they will be hurt less, interesting.
Maybe it's just because it's late, but something seems off on the math.

However, all the defense based sets have other means to avoid damage, besides just Defense.

So, assuming your math is right...

SR has scaling resists

INV has Resists

EA has Resists

ICE has -DMG aura

STONE has Resists (to backup its defenses)

Shield has Resists

WP has resists

Not to mention some of those sets have heals and a means for +HP.

...Rage is fine as is.

And it's not like you HAVE to run it perma. You choose too. You can just run it at times you won't have to worry about the defense crash.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Snarky comments and weird pseudo-math aside, sets that are designed to primarily be DEF based (yes, some have +HP, minor resists etc.) suffer from Rage crashing more than the RES based sets.


Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior View Post
Snarky comments and weird pseudo-math aside, sets that are designed to primarily be DEF based (yes, some have +HP, minor resists etc.) suffer from Rage crashing more than the RES based sets.

This is true, and the devs seem to be aware of it in that they tried to replace it with a minus recovery, which was even more ridiculous, because that coupled with the end crash meant toggle dropping death-fests, so they wisely cancelled the change.

There have been damage work ups done by forum members, and they all seem to show that SS WITH rage puts SS's damage output in the same neighborhood as other competing sets. Without rage, SS is a bottom feeder damage-wise. So basically, you need to take rage if you want to compete damage-wise with other sets. That means you have to waste a power, slot it, keep using it, and then endure a pretty hefty defense debuff and endurance crash every couple of minutes, along with 10 seconds of impotence, just to do damage on par with other sets. Really, the only advantage the power gives is the to hit buff, which is great, but I don't think it justifies that many negatives. I think the defense debuff could be dropped from the power without any problems whatsoever. The end crash and 10 seconds of impotence every two minutes is a fair trade for the to hit buff and being able to do dmg on par with other powersets. I don't know how anyone who actually plays ss for 50 levels can claim that crash is unnoticeable - running out of end and not being able to damage enemies every two minutes drives me nuts sometimes.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
There have been damage work ups done by forum members, and they all seem to show that SS WITH rage puts SS's damage output in the same neighborhood as other competing sets. Without rage, SS is a bottom feeder damage-wise. So basically, you need to take rage if you want to compete damage-wise with other sets. That means you have to waste a power, slot it, keep using it, and then endure a pretty hefty defense debuff and endurance crash every couple of minutes, along with 10 seconds of impotence, just to do damage on par with other sets. Really, the only advantage the power gives is the to hit buff, which is great, but I don't think it justifies that many negatives.
I would consider SD as an exception. With AAO I average a 75% dam bonus. Slightly less than Rage but still pretty nice. So out of the gate it brings damage on par with other sets. If you can handle Rage with SD it helps make the damage superior to other sets. Myself I don't like dealing with the crash and picked up another attack but I may switch back.... I'll see.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by basotl View Post
I would consider SD as an exception. With AAO I average a 75% dam bonus. Slightly less than Rage but still pretty nice. So out of the gate it brings damage on par with other sets. If you can handle Rage with SD it helps make the damage superior to other sets. Myself I don't like dealing with the crash and picked up another attack but I may switch back.... I'll see.

You shouldn't determine how rage works based on SD or whatever set you choose to go along with SS. Regardless of primary (for tanks) or (secondary) for brutes, the penalities for rage are excessive, imo. Again, with rage, SS does damage on par with competing sets, so really the only advantage it gives you is the to hit debuff, which again, is very nice, but not so nice considering you suffer an end crash every two minutes, along with 10 seconds of damage impotence AND a 20% def penalty. That's excessive for a to hit bonus that is really just overkill most of the time, which is why I feel the devs could drop the def penalty without any other alterations. The end crash and 10 seconds of impotence every two minutes is more than enough of a penalty for a power that merely allows the set to do dmg on par with it's competitors along with a to hit bonus, in a game where you hit 90 plus percent of the time anyway (pve wise).


 

Posted

Ive re-awakened my Shield/Axe tanker with the free Server Transfers and after a respec (he was my 2nd toon so I got a lot of things wrong) upped the diff from 0/0 to +2/x3 and am having no problems apart from END.
I rarely ever go below 1/3 health (too much agro or EB's) and and just starting to look at IO's (Im level 35).

With Weave running im currently at 36% (ish) Def to all 3 positions. Getting 2 Sets of ToD IO sets will give me another +6ish% - taking me to 42% Melee.
1 Set of Mako will give me 39ish% Ranged.
AoE will stay at 36%. I remember seeing an IO set that gave +Def to Ranged/AoE but I forget (this is my first serious attempt at IOing).

Yes Shield/Axe is rather END heavy but for all that is it awesome fun


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA View Post
The DEF debuff on Rage crashing should be looked at. There are a lot more DEF based sets for tanks and brutes now to warrant it.
I just checked on my SS/Elec Brute, and the Rage crash did not send any of his (normally zero) defenses into negative numbers, while in perma-Rage. Granted, I only checked two cycles. It did not even send any of his few extremely low defense scores down to zero. Just to make sure, I took Rage off of autofire, and sure enough, the Rage crash drove all my defense scores into negatives. Does Tanker Rage work differently from Brute Rage?


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