What if you were the level boss?

This is sort of an eccentric idea that's been running around my head for just shy of 15 years now, and for all this time I've never really been able to put it into words. Basically, it comes down to the title question. What if, instead of the lone, underpowered hero who has to fight a stronger, more capable enemy and triumph against all odds, you were the level boss, and the enemy were the weaker but more agile character? Or, in fact, if the enemy were weak, helpless enemies who couldn't hope to do much more than take off a bit of your life bar? Before we delve into City of Heroes, let me explain where this comes from.

"The level boss" is, classically, a creature of arcade games. My fondest memories of the best of these kind have been the MegaMan X games, specifically played with Zero, as you had to get in close to do anything with him. In this game, as you progressed, the bosses became larger, faster and more complicated. X4's General is as tall as the screen and a third of it wide, and he only takes damage if you slash him in the head. And, OK, I'm fast on my keyboard, but why am I always the weaker one? Why do I take damage if you touch the boss? Why do I die in a few hits, while having to slash his damn head eleventy billion times? X (MegaMan) gets it a bit better in most games, as with enough upgrades and special armour pieces, he can sort of boss it up to some extent, but even then, with flash timers, ultimate shields and uninterruptible powers, he's still just a player.

Enter Castlevania: Symphony of the Night for the PSX. It's an old game a friend of mine had on his PlayStation back ten years ago, which I only recently rediscovered on a chance find. It stars Alucard, son of draculA, (stupid name...), who starts out as basically a fighter, but towards the end starts developing pretty dang amazing powers, including a lot of powers from the actual Dracula final boss from Castlevania: Bloodlines. I'm not actually through the game yet, and I missed a lot of secrets already, but at the very least one spell he has has him teleport away, reappear and shoot fireballs out of his cape. That right there is perfect example of a Capcom boss tactic (despite the game being made by Konami). It got me thinking... Alucard isn't just some schmuck with a sword, you know... He's the son of Dracula. He has powers. He can turn into a bat, a wolf, into mist, he can teleport, drain people's blood, summon ghosts... Yeah, the game still treats me like a player and has me do jumping boss fights, and I still get kocked back from every frikkin' breeze, but... Well, with enough armour and levelling up, I can actually take quite a beating, even from bosses. Why, I'm like a boss, myself.

Which brings me back to an old PSX game, Jurassic Park from probably 15 years ago. Hell if I can actually find it, but it had you play a little dinosaur, a Raptor, a guy with a gun, and even a T-Rex. Now, the T-Rex was where the real fun started, because you're huge, you're slow, and people are shooting at you ALL THE TIME. They can't really hurt you, but they're constantly draining your health, which turns it from a fight for survival into an endurance race. You can eat people for some health, but basically you need to outlast the humans and get to the end. Which is, typically, how a Capcom boss usually wins. Throw out attack after attack and hope to take you down before you chip off too much of his health.

So what does this have to do with City of Heroes? After all, this isn't an arcade game, and characters are already powerful enough to take on bosses one on one. But here's the thing - even now, unless you downgrade bosses, the game still follows the same pattern as those old arcades. You fight through a level of bad guys, maybe take on a mini-boss mid-way, and end up at the level boss. Think Frostfire and you'll know what I mean. Basically, even though you're strong, the game still treats you like "just a player" engaging in "just a boss fight." And that's just regular missions. The "epic" content has you square off against archvillains, usually in groups. It still treats you like the weak player squaring off against a powerful boss, trying to find a way to win anyway. The odds are always, at least narratively, stacked against you.

Why? Why not go the other way? Let's look at an example from the game already - Mercedes Sheldon's third hero arc, the Crown of WhatWasIt. The final mission has you square off not against an AV, or even an elite boss. Instead, it's one boss, who calls in two more bosses, and when he dies, another boss arrives, who calls in two more bosses. It's an ungodly hard fight, especially since the Warriors are THE heaviest hitters at that level, but it actually has the right idea. I'm the boss of the level. I'm the strong one, the unstoppable one. I don't need to bring together seven of my friends to just hope to take on one guy. The bad guys had to bring out six of their best just to take on ME. The game's balance isn't really different, but the fight is more epic AND it feels so much more satisfying. For once, the AI is working hard to kill me, rather than crouching behind a mountain of hit points and offensive stats for me to chip through.

It's part power balance, part presentation. What makes MegaMan X's X feel like a boss is his ability to hover and crush-blast some boss projectiles. He ACTS like a boss. What makes Alucard feel like a boss is the fact that he can teleport at will, become invincible and shoot out boss attacks. He LOOKS like a boss. What made the T-Rex feel like a boss was that the enemies plain and simple could not take him down, or even phase him much. He ENDURED like a boss. What made my little ole' Scrapper feel like a boss in Mercedes' arc was that I fought back six Warriors bosses with their entire posse despite my team-mate going down. Any of these is cool. All of these is a game the likes of which I've never seen before. You're always facing some cheap, annoying problem, like enemies being too strong, having nasty effects, or what has turned me off so many Hulk: Ultimate Destruction clones - STUPID KNOCKBACK! With a zillion soldiers shooting rockets at you, you can't stand still for a nanosecond. What's the point of Prototype's Alex Mercer being a super weapon if he's a fragile little girl unless he's constantly prancing around?

Basically, it all comes down to feel. A few games have come pretty close to making me feel like I'm playing the level boss, with my enemies being the players (though, oddly enough, not Dungeon Keeper), but never completely. Frankly, City of Heroes has come the closest.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Good post as usual, Sam.

I think that sums up the part of me that screams at my Crab Spider when he still gets KB'd by stuff...finally get a VEAT, a walking tank with four freaking gun arms attached to his back, huge blades on his fore arms, maxed out height and usually unstoppable...and then he gets bounced off walls by someone like Sigil (argharghargh) because somebody in their infinite wisdom decided to give Crab Spiders a KB hole.

Thats probably also why I enjoy playing my old main when I do, Chief Centurion Z1, Invul/EM tanker. It took me numerous mistakes and respecs to get him where he is, but nowadays he feels like that End Boss feel. The majority of enemies plink away at his health. Sure its all the time, and when you add in Bosses and stuff it does become more of a fight, but it still feels epic, sat in the middle of this mass of enemies, laughing as they plink away.

Maybe that's why Reichsman bugs the hell out of me, at least Villains side. He's just a huge sack of HP, with a few Godhammer attacks and nasty debuffs.
Ok, I haven't done the LRSF either, so maybe States is just as bad, which would at least make sense.

But, yeah. In a way beating up the big bads is kinda more fun, because you kicked their *****, despite being smaller. My all time favourite I think was a Boss fight in Castlevania: Circle of the Moon on Gameboy Advance. A really neat side scroller. One boss room you walked into, hopping down a few platforms, with what looked like two random mounds beneath you.
And then the freaking Zombie Dragons actually lifted their heads up.
Not one, but two Zombie dragons, both spitting fireballs at you. And, yes, it was headshots only. Watching one of them die was satisfying...and then the other one bit a few chunks out of it to regen a chunk of health...
When the last one hit the deck...that felt good right there. I always wish those boss fights were replayable.

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Can I be a load-bearing boss? (WARNING: TV Tropes link)

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha Maybe that's why Reichsman bugs the hell out of me, at least Villains side. He's just a huge sack of HP, with a few Godhammer attacks and nasty debuffs. Ok, I haven't done the LRSF either, so maybe States is just as bad, which would at least make sense.

Statesman's HP is nothing compared to Reichsman. The only thing that compares to Reichsman's HP are giant monsters.

So... I've been playing Prototype lately, and I just finished a "boss battle" in Time Square, I think it took me like half an hour. And when I was done? I felt absolutely invincible. I was the lone character going against the giant pile of hit points, and for once, for whatever reason, I really enjoyed the entire fight... all of it.

I guess my point is, I kinda like things as they are, but you bring up an interesting question. What if I were the boss in that same scenario? Would it feel just as good to be a giant creature and have beaten a tiny hero hucking cars at me, with the military plinking their wittle buwwets at me? I don't think so.

In short, I don't think it would be better any other way.

Worst game for Knocback ever;
Transformers the Movie Game

Now, yes, I shouldn't have been too surprised. Film knock offs are, by dint of being film knock offs, exceptionally bad.
But the shear ammount of KB in that game was.....argharghARGHarghARGHOHGODTHERATS.

It was that freaking bad. The combat was horrible, the driving was horrible, the plot was mauled beyond belief....actually, no, thats not fair, the plot was *different* to the movie, but ACTUALLY had more character, especially for the Decepticons. (AND they had the original Megatron voice in it! Woo!)

But then...before that, there was the glory that was Transformers. I dont know what its subtitle was, but it was based off the Armada series.
And you know what? It had Knockback in it, yes, but it was done well.
Knockback was reserved for things like Spider Tanks, big walking laser guns which had an alternate power up attack that sent you flying. It was saved for Heavy Units and their foot stomp which, although powerful, was easy to dodge and so balanced. It was saved for the mini-bosses that were the Command Units in later levels, who only packed a non-seeker missile at range, but did also pack a freaking sword...

And Bosses, naturally. But you could stand and take freaking missiles to the face, and not fall over (your health would scream at you, though). And, even when you fell over, you felt like this hulking, badass robot, partially thanks to the physics, which was well done, but also to the satisfying Thud sound and the joypad rumble.

Cheap tricks and moves: Bad
Logical and well made moves: Good

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

You should try playing Assassins Creed 2, Sam. There is something immensly satisfying running someone through with a spear you picked up off the last mob, then proceeding to take out a whole detachment of guards steadily and methodically, while the citizens flee from the Man in the White hood.

Especially since AC2 perfected the combat system, it really is one of the most satisfying around. Sure, certain enemies can't be counter-killed in one shot, but they still get hurt by the attack. Sure some of them can't be grabbed or disarmed in one shot, but once you weaken them a little bit you can. Its diverse, it stays fresh, the ammount of combo kills, counter kills and special weapon kills is so large there will always be one that pops up that makes you go 'oooo neat'.
Fun times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Interestingly players can become Boss characters in CoH however it's very limited set of builds that can pull this off.

My Bots/Traps is only 32 and barely slotted for IOs BUT she already feels like a 'Boss with Minions' type fight that tends to crop up in the scrolling beat'em up genre. Anything under an Elite Boss (which are meant to be the mini-boss of the CoH world) barely causes her to flinch. Once she's fully IO'd out to have range defense soft-capped and a few other things, she'll be fully capable of taking on the 'final boss' grade foes that are Giant Monsters on her own.

Sonic/Rad defenders/corruptors, Illusion/Rad Controllers, Dark/SR Scrappers/Brutes can all be atleast end level boss type power since they can all take out AVs.

Oh yeah... endurance tests. How long can you stay alive until the little guys finally take you down? That is nice. I remember playing the Incredible Hulk demo in a GameStop some years back, and dude... Hulk was practically invincible. Every little piddly hit from a cop's gun only took off a pixel of health and only the Hulk-buster suits had a chance of really damaging him somewhat. And the whole time? Hulk smash. Hulk smash a lot.

My tanker, Destructeon, felt like this a couple days ago on the very same Mercedes mission you were referring to. Try as the Warriors might, they couldn't kill me fast enough.

Yes yes yes and yes!
Hehehe...

Don't get me wrong, it's great (as Sam points out) to be the one fighting against the boss as well... I just love being on the opposite side too. And love the thought of having more options for that in CoH.

In fact... I have to check out this Mercedes Sheldon mission. I don't remember ever doing that!
And... I've made some attempts in the MArc to accomplish this, but I don't think I've set it up quite that well with this full concept in mind.
I think I am going to run and do that right now, heehee!

That is a beautiful thing about CoH and the Mission Architect... perhaps we can, at least, come close to capturing some of this feel within this game.

Sure, we can go to lower level zones or something, but that's not nearly the same.


And, beyond CoH...
The idea of playing a game where I'm an enormous, slow, stiff moving powerhouse fending off against pesky tiny agile heroes... Well, I think someone should make a whole game where you play as each of the level bosses of famous games of the past!

Haha, that could be a blast!


And... I remember really enjoying that first Hulk game that seemed to get it right (I cannot remember what the title was). That was a fun time. You had to endure some Banner missions in-between the fun smashing (And I only say "endure" because the HULK SMASH bits were so much damn fun).

Yeah, that was one of the few times I can remember a game coming close to getting it right about a different sort of concept for your character's "life energy". (Although, I think we even had to change the settings in that game to make Hulk as tough and monstrous as can be, for it to feel better).

A game doesn't necessarily have to be about being vulnerable. Failure can come in other ways beyond getting hit and losing health.

And yes, the single enemy behind the mountain of hit points is a bit disappointing for my enjoyment. Giant Monsters are one thing... but I'd love to see something different and more dynamic for epic AV (Or whatever) battles.

No knock on CoH, just saying!

Definitely, great topic, Sam!



Oh hey... The NES Mike Tyson's Punchout was practically an entire game of nothing but level boss fights. That was a good example of the fun of it (Learning the exact tricks needed for each individual foe).

Speaking of Superman, there was another game that got this somewhat right, if I recall correctly... Superman: Shadow Of Apokolips.

I'm pretty sure there were bosses to fight though, but I think they were more on that planetary Superman scale.
Honestly, I rented it back when it came out and finished it in one or two days of play. So, my memory of it is somewhat poor at this point... Other than I enjoyed it, seemed to think it was a surprisingly good video game representation of being Superman (Being the Level Boss), but was short enough to finish too quickly (Not bad for a rental though). It was good enough that I still kept it in my head to buy some time, but never did.

I may have to check out Lungfishopolis, hehe.
Oh, and I didn't go and work on a MArc yet, but I will let you know if I think I get something worthy.

You want to be the end boss and throw dozens of minions at he hero, play Evil Genius.