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A huge amount. I teamed regularly with @VoidSpawn, and he kept count of our TFs. We'd done over two hundred before i9, and that's not counting Katie. Including a few 9+ hour Doctor Qs.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If you really think you'd get a team for that all the time if it didn't have a merit (or similar) reward at the end, there's a bridge in New New I'd like to sell you. Seriously, think back to before I9. How many TFs did you see forming compared to now?
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Also, the Eden trial has awful rewards these days, and I still get people to run it, under the promise of a 'unique map' and 'really giant enemy at the end'. Not everybody is reward oriented.
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
Quote:
And you really need to stop dismissing opinions that don't match what you said. The question was "How many TFs that people run more than once aren't being merit farmed?" I answered.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
You really need to start considering the fact that you are not the only person who plays this game. |
Just like I start TFs over and over AND get teams for them (I actually just finished a LGTF and started a Khan TF afterwards) other people can do it. The content is not the issue here. It's up to the team leader to suggest alternate content; the ITF is getting farmed because a lot of team leaders have a reward-oriented mind.
I actually got more people for both the LGTF and the Khan TF that I could take in the team, because people don't do those TFs often, and they want to play them.
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
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Wow, 200 TFs. Let me guess, with a core of like minded players?|
Originally Posted by Leandro
A huge amount. I teamed regularly with @VoidSpawn, and he kept count of our TFs. We'd done over two hundred before i9, and that's not counting Katie. Including a few 9+ hour Doctor Qs.
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How many did other people form? How many calls for TFs did you see in, say, global channels? How many strangers sent you tells asking if you wanted a TF team?
Now, how many TFs a day do you think are run now?
Edit:
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| The question was "How many TFs that people run more than once aren't being merit farmed?" I answered. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Me and him were the two forming them. Everybody else used to be PUGs from Freedom TF, Freedom Badge, Freedom Monster and RadioFreedom. And I was one of the strangers sending out tells asking if I wanted a TF team; I actually met @VoidSpawn through a random TF invite.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Wow, 200 TFs. Let me guess, with a core of like minded players?
How many did other people form? How many calls for TFs did you see in, say, global channels? How many strangers sent you tells asking if you wanted a TF team? |
The Freedom TF channel was as active these days as it is today. Not sure what server you hail from, but during i4-i8 I had no shortage of TF teammates.
You forget, just like TFs didn't give any special rewards at the end... neither did ANYTHING else. True, more people left mid-TF back then, but it was just another mission team to join. Plenty of people joined them.
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| No, you answered for you, and some people you know. The question was more general than that. |
Let me repeat this: the TF content is not the issue here. It's up to the team leader to suggest alternate content. Once the task is selected, there's no shortage of teammates.
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
Quote:
Where did we get off onto a tangent about TF content? This all started because of a claim that people only run the ITF because they're farming it for merits. I say that's ridiculous not because people don't run the ITF for merits but because I say most TFs are being run either for merits or XP. (Anyone who thinks the LGTF isn't farmed for merits is uninformed.) You're not agreeing with me, but you are disagreeing with the idea that everyone is farming for merits.|
Originally Posted by Leandro
Let me repeat this: the TF content is not the issue here. It's up to the team leader to suggest alternate content. Once the task is selected, there's no shortage of teammates.
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Before I9, the only time I saw people running TFs was because they'd never done a given TF before, or for badges - especially the ones needed for Task Force Commander. The only TF I saw run repeatedly pre I9 was the KHTF, which was run for XP and (amusingly in retrospect) the 10 SOs. In non-badge server channels, there were calls for non Katie TF teams maybe once every 2-3 days.
Now, I see calls for TFs many times a day. The difference is very dramatic, and I'm definitely not the only person to notice it or comment on it in the past. I mean, hell, people run Positron a lot now. I think anyone who doesn't think a 66 merit reward has something to do with that has their head in the sand.
If this was all about what's fun content, then why are KHTFs so rare now? I don't just mean what people will join, but also what TF leaders are willing to offer to start?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I have found AE to be my preferred means of self power leveling. |
Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
AE Has too little reward for too much risk -Pretty self explainitory, even patrol XP is disabled, furthering the dispairity between RC and AE. I should not have to deal with a power that does 5k damage to get full xp, I don't even think theres a GM that does that, although I have been wrong and prolly am. |
I do agree that many of the nerfs are extreme, and almost pointless. Map ticket limits are state lotteries, discriminatory on the stupid. Anyone who knows what the ticket limit for a map is and can divide by 2 can circumvent them. The nerfs on custome critters hurt the storytellers more than anyone else, funny when you think they brought them on themselves. (If you want to wage war, make certain you can live with the consequences).
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1: It didn't hurt storytellers much, if at all.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The nerfs on custome critters hurt the storytellers more than anyone else, funny when you think they brought them on themselves.
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2: Storytellers didn't bring it on themselves.
I still haven't hurt one bit from the limited rewards on custom critters. Mostly because I hardly used them to begin with in my own arcs. I have always preferred to use standard critters, and I have always preferred to fight standard critters. Custom critters are great as bosses and allies but that's about it.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
1: It didn't hurt storytellers much, if at all.
2: Storytellers didn't bring it on themselves. I still haven't hurt one bit from the limited rewards on custom critters. Mostly because I hardly used them to begin with in my own arcs. I have always preferred to use standard critters, and I have always preferred to fight standard critters. Custom critters are great as bosses and allies but that's about it. |
I just got done playing this game, just scroll through the forum and in your minds ear listen to the wails of discontent.
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Who what how? Funny I don't recall anyone calling for a nerf to custom critters back in the days of the farming debate. Everyone was calling for an end to exploits, and then to boss farms, and the ones who screamed the loudest were not storytellers.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The nerfs on custome critters hurt the storytellers more than anyone else, funny when you think they brought them on themselves.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Yeah those nerf calls DID NOT come from story tellers.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Who what how? Funny I don't recall anyone calling for a nerf to custom critters back in the days of the farming debate. Everyone was calling for an end to exploits, and then to boss farms, and the ones who screamed the loudest were not storytellers.
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With that said, since issue 15 I think I've stepped into AE like twice.
Both times they were completely empty.
I'm literally subbed to 10 channels, with Freedom TFs, RF2009 and VU2009 being among them. This includes 2 dedicated AE channels, which are usually silent. Completely.
In the last two months I've seen literally 10 or less calls for an AE team in all the channels I sub to.
NO ONE can deny that AE is LESS USED now then it was. But that's to be expected when they overnerfed it, and farmers no longer really need anyone else to farm, as of issue 16.
The reduction in xp for custom mobs was a useless unnecessary nerf.
The REQUIREMENT to have lts, mins, and bosses in spawns is all they needed to do.
With no patrol xp, no mission bonus, and less xp for custom mobs, AE mission DO give less xp than regualar missions. I think many folks have answered: they'd rather do tfs and run newspapers.
In fact issue 16's new game difficulty options made it even easier to completely IGNORE AE if you so choose. Espcecially for farmers.
Honestly the fact that the search is clogged with old farms and old content that hasn't been played in ages is ALSO annoying. Funny how the devs didn't fix THAT aspect, yet folks were screaming about that as equally as they were yelling about the farming.
Personally I would have unclogged and further upgraded the ABSOLUTELY USELESS search options and made them more useful BEFORE worrying about about a silly neverending battle against farming.
But that's just me.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Yeah, that's pretty much what the storytellers and story players were complaining about.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Honestly the fact that the search is clogged with old farms and old content that hasn't been played in ages is ALSO annoying. Funny how the devs didn't fix THAT aspect, yet folks were screaming about that as equally as they were yelling about the farming.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Here is my take on it, yes its been nerfed to hell and back but there is no way I would the arcs for story purposes. Its just not worth the time or effort because of the way custom critters work. Personally what I do is create an arc based on my strengths for my toon. Create custom critters with little or no resistance to my damage type. Give said critters a damage type that I have high resistance or defense to. Create a ton of helper npcs to speed things up. Since now you can take away their attacks you can basically just be buffed out to the gills. Set mission for 8 people on a small map since the ticket cap is low. Do this same mission over and over on a tanker. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY AE IS WORTH MY TIME. Sorry if this maybe seen as exploiting but after the gutting of the tickets there is just no way I would play this for fun since it wont be. Notice I said tickets and not xp. The xp could have been trash from the start I could careless, my biggest concern has always been tickets.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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^^This. I have said it time and time again the devs of this game simply are playing a different game all together. They see stuff how its supposed to work and not how it actually works from the player perspective. If they saw stuff from the players point of view several things would not be as screwed up as it is. PvP, AE, IOs, Market would all be different if they saw things as the players do.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
It's a poor work around. The AE, from its onset, was supposed to limit exploitability. They took several measures early on to limit it, but just didn't completely understand just how far players will go to exploit a system (IME, they still don't properly understand that).
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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
Maybe?|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Sorry if this maybe seen as exploiting
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I give up. If people can't even tell that they are exploiting when they go through all that trouble to exploit, there's no way they will ever get it.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
So what you're saying is, you're right and damn reality?
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As opposed to you saying ignore a board full of complaints about broken arcs, let alone the old boards, that were a constant refrain of "Nobody plays my story because all of the farms, my story is 1000th on the list when that jerks damn farm is just below the devs choice"
You really cant fault the devs for not responding to their customers on this one.
I love how people keep using their own individual experience as counter-examples to disprove points.
Logic that's based purely on examples is just hilarious.
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Umm, I'm confused. What would you expect people to use on a forum?|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
I love how people keep using their own individual experience as counter-examples to disprove points.
Logic that's based purely on examples is just hilarious. |
It's not like we have the data-mining tools that the devs have to actually come at discussions with absolute facts.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
I know. I'm just saying...this argument has turned into an endless loop.
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Umm, I'm confused. What would you expect people to use on a forum?
It's not like we have the data-mining tools that the devs have to actually come at discussions with absolute facts.
There is a difference between drawing your arguments from logical facts while using examples to further polish them, and using examples to build a basis for your argument and then use logic to polish them. It's not about accuracy data.
But what do I know.
Someone once told me "Brightshadow, stop stating with authority unprovable assertations to justify your position. Just because you know the words 'arguable' and 'fact' doesn't mean you can slap them on things like a label."
I don't really get what that means. But it's probably saying I'm doing something wrong. 
Quote:
We're all here posting in an internet forum instead of working, doing schoolwork, housework, or playing COx.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
I know. I'm just saying...this argument has turned into an endless loop. There is a difference between drawing your arguments from logical facts while using examples to further polish them, and using examples to build a basis for your argument and then use logic to polish them. It's not about accuracy data. But what do I know. Someone once told me "Brightshadow, stop stating with authority unprovable assertations to justify your position. Just because you know the words 'arguable' and 'fact' doesn't mean you can slap them on things like a label." I don't really get what that means. But it's probably saying I'm doing something wrong. |
We're ALL doing it wrong.
(j/k for anyone who is funny bone impared)
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
I actually have exams I need to be studying for.
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
We're all here posting in an internet forum instead of working, doing schoolwork, housework, or playing COx.
We're ALL doing it wrong.
(j/k for anyone who is funny bone impared)
The Mission Selection System needs some work. Somethings I would like to see.
After finishing a mission, if you rate 5 starts. you could get a "People that liked this, also liked ,,," list of missions people that rated this mission 5 stars also rated 5 stars.
Also would like to see some way to insure that the mission has balanced mobs, valid customer builds for full XP. Also should have a message for "Reduced XP is in effect for this storyline, for any story that has a mission that does not give full XP.
Some sort to choose, last 24 hours, last week, last month, since last issue, and all time for evailuting stars. Many missions that were 5 star prior to Issue 16 are definitely not now.
Finally the ability to make an authors list and be able to check for stories by people on this list.
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As I joined CoH after CoP was pulled, I didn't realize it was that big of a deal.|
Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
CoP was only a major component of PvP, even had its own forum section. It was on the original box for CoV, and whether the reason MA got more advertising is due to its importance, forecasted success or becuase it simply was an addition to a game that was much better then it was as it first started.
The dispairity between the two is larger then you make it sound, missing from it are things such as arc bonus', end of mish bonus' and patrol XP. THey do quite count for a nice chunk of xp in most RC mishs. |
As for AE being profitable, I have found it far more effective for PL purposing, as you can still tailor mobs to fit your powerset. It is this reason alone that it is easier to farm with. There's no real way to stop this.
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I actually tried to disprove it, I went into RV on freedom, at around 3 in the afternoon and advertised making an AE arc team, managed to get a 5 man team together for eh, bout half an arc. While in RV there was a quite healthy 17 ish heros, and 9 vills. Triumph was much the same, managed a nice 4v3 in RV and a nice quiet 3 man team, we did a few arcs however before it died. |
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| Ok, you don;t have to beleive it for it to be true man |
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| Would they prefer AE over PvP, yes, for only the fact that its PvE in a PvE centric game, I am speaking in reference to existing levels of players. Although, comparing who will go to what base over whatelse is different, considering that AE would be more appealing for lack of a severe learning curve, seeing as how PvP hardly resembles PvE. |
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Cimerora took up a nice issue, isn't done, and is certainly currently getting used more then AE( Proved by the numerous ITFs always going on ). Where as AE took up the better side of what, I'm tempted to say 3-4 issues, and is currently nearing a point where the devs are likely thinking it complete, and as of now, has less users then cim, for more time invested. Is this a failure? Yes, can you fix failure? In this case yes. |
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| However, until it is fixed, it is quite low on the list of things that can be considered a buissness failure. However, not completely, it has potential, however, like I have said in this thread, it won't go anywhere until the devs come to terms with the fact that people will farm in it. |
My issue with your post was your statement that PvP was more popular than AE. I don't think they are quite comparable. For starters, AE is an option for PvE'ers as something they can do, while still in a PvE environment.
PvP isn't an option for those that want to PvP. If they want to take their 50's to PvP, there is only one place to go. Those that enjoy PvP will undoubtedly spend more time in it compared to a more casual PvE'er.
I will take your word that this is the case, but I still find it hard to believe.
AE farms can still be easily made (using the steps above (or even part of)); using similar steps, you can devise them not only for individual powersets but for AT types as well.
The new diff function can boost end rewards dramatically (-1/8man); just like it can for Purple hunting.
A good, solid ally with an equally solid AoE mez set works wonders.
A good, solid ally with weak attack(s) and solid team buffs works wonders.
Critter self rez can be annoying but it helps counteract the xp nerf (still don't know why they got rid of ally rez for critters)
Question is, can you get in trouble for doing these things despite the fact that they merely put the custom arc on par with a standard arc (as opposed to leaps and bounds beyond it)
As far as getting rid of old arcs; they should follow a similar formula for when a toon isn't logged into for awhile. If an arc hasn't been played AND it's author hasn't logged in for X days, the arc is automatically unpublished. That'll clear some of the clutter.
Power-based XP for critters should've been done differently; a multiplier based on number of and tier level of powers chosen (without the 'must-have-these-two-specific-powers-or-its-nillville' (or is it 4, counting the secondaries?) against a set base XP (dependent or critter rank). - Basing XP on whether or not a CCG has all three ranks is pure butt and wouldn't be necessary with the above option.
The varying nerfs do affect storytelling for some writers (not every writer is the same); especially when it comes to power exclusions (or even inclusions) and the tri-rank nerf.
All in all, AE isn't a total loss for those that can both work the system AND attract a following but being that people's attraction is more based on the obvious... with the most recent based in mega-nerfing; we are at the point where a major mechanic has been reduced to a niche attraction (at least it's still here). [And that's kind of sad considering that it was supposed to set the pace and change the face of MMORPGing as we knew it]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA