Would you have kicked?

Time to rant a tad. I generally avoid this a bit but what the hell might as well. I was starting a Posi TF. There was nearly no interest in the TF on the channels I frequent. BMT, BOSS, Pingus, UHB Network, and Alliance were remarkably silent.

There was only one other person Sylvar Panda. He was running an WP/SS and I had my Inv/EM. This was already looking to be pretty tedious to begin with since he had no AoEs or Stamina and I didn't have Whirling Hands in my build until about lvl 30. There was another person there so I figured I'd ask since a lvl 49 generally isn't hanging around Valk. I will not name the person or the server we were on.

11-25-2009 20:49:20 -->: interested in Posi?
11-25-2009 20:49:23 : sure

We started since we were lucky to have 3. She was running an Inv/EM so long story short no AoEs 1/3 with Stamina and a bunch of kill alls. Since we were running all tanks there wasn't really a question of if we could complete it. The only question was on which day it be on.

The question in person left for supper at 21:51 which was 9:51 my time. I asked if she was coming back and she said she would be back as soon as she was done. I kinda shrugged my shoulders on this. Isn't the first time a person was having supper and logged out and came back during a TF. I noted this in team chat with Sylvar and we proceeded to grind the TF including the kill alls and the blitz bad guy and minions missions.

After about 40 minutes I talked with Silvar and asked about kicking her if she came back. He didn't think she was coming back. I was kind of expecting a return since the person logged out as opposed to quitting. She came back at 10:55. She said she was on her way to the mission and I just kicked her. Next came a few tells.

11-25-2009 22:55:41 : what was that for? i came back, i was on my way to the mish..
11-25-2009 22:55:54 -->: You were gone ove an hour
11-25-2009 22:56:30 : i told you i had to eat dinner. i live with my boyfriend and they make it a huge family deal..well im sorry i told you i didnt know how long id be gone.
11-25-2009 22:57:10 -->: Not a problem. That is why we gave you time.
11-25-2009 22:57:48 : k. peace
11-25-2009 22:58:43 -->: peace. If it was less then an hour you would have gotten some slack.
11-25-2009 22:58:58 : sorry i cant send tells through my mind and let you know whats going on

Normally I'd cut someone some slack but this seemed like the ole "I'll log off for half a TF and log back in to collect the merits and badge" trick. Sylvar and I finished the Posi in just over 3 hours. Personally my opinion is if you have to go AFK or log you should be back as soon as possible and over an hour did not seem like any effort was put into helping us.

First I'll say this. It was your TF. You do what you want.

HOWEVER, I think you were being more than a little inflexible, ESPECIALLY since you kicked someone you KNEW was on their way back.

An hour is a piddling amount of time. Especially for a three man Posi.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

I don't think it was unreasonable to kick them. When they agreed to join the TF they had to have known that they were going to leave for dinner at some point. If they had given you fair warning that they would be afk or logging off for a period of time during the task force and you had agreed to that, then kicking would be unreasonable. Hiding a known fact from you, essentially misrepresenting the amount of participation they would have in the TF, is unfair to you and the work that you and your teammate were putting into duo'ing the missions.

I agree with Hyperstrike, your TF, run it how you like. You even talked to the 2nd person who stayed and apparently both agreed you should kick the 3rd if they came back. There was consensus and majority ruled for this instance.

Now, as for this specific case, would I have kicked the person who went to eat dinner?

No. Especially since they actually came back seemingly willing to go on.

Could they have been mooching? Sure, not unheard of. But they could have legitimately been eating just the same. An hour to eat dinner is not unheard of, not everyone wolfs food down to get back to a game. Some people, especially those who don't eat alone, sometimes actually talk with each other making the whole "dinner experience" last longer than simply chewing and swallowing the food.

For me, I would have just kept going but I would have kept an eye on the 3rd person and made a note on them after the TF was over. My note would have been along the lines of "Person went off to eat dinner for over an hour during a Posi. They came back and..."

Whether the note would be positive or negative would have been based on the rest of my experience with them. I doubt they would get 5 stars from me, but I wouldn't 1 star them and say "never team with them again" either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talon_Arsenal I don't think it was unreasonable to kick them. When they agreed to join the TF they had to have known that they were going to leave for dinner at some point. If they had given you fair warning that they would be afk or logging off for a period of time during the task force and you had agreed to that, then kicking would be unreasonable. Hiding a known fact from you, essentially misrepresenting the amount of participation they would have in the TF, is unfair to you and the work that you and your teammate were putting into duo'ing the missions.

If they had mentioned having to leave for a bit before accepting the invite, then yes, kicking them would have been wrong. Apparently this person didn't, so again, the remaining two players agreed they should be booted. Nothing wrong with that. Just not what I would have done is all.

I have real life responsibilities that can and do pull me away from the game with little to no notice. Sometimes even when I KNOW I have something to do, a simple (in my mind) 5 minute chore has turned into an hour or more AFK.

That's not fair to teammates and is why I solo 99% of the time. I love the game and a lot of the people in it are great to be around, which is why I'm still here after 5+ years. I just can't bring myself to commit to TF's anymore and then have to bail out in the middle of it. I even feel bad when I've had to leave in the middle of a PUG running radio missions.

Everyone is different and to each their own, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt most times. Which is why I won't say Gideon_F was right or wrong in what they did. I would even say that talking it over with other teammate(s) shows you at least gave it some thought and were willing to be reasonable. Kudos for you, Gideon_F.

If you decide that kicking was the wrong move....


.... Well, I'll volunteer to do TF's with you in the future. I'll be glad to show up for the last ten minutes to get the reward. Why would I want to do my own work, like a sucker?

At least this scenario didn't materialize for you as it did for me.
In the first kill all, a player says they are going to dinner and just leaves. My no-damage bubbler and the remaining player slog through the mission; the player comes back 20 minutes later and says "Logging, not gaining xp."

We just disbanded at that point

Anyway, you weren't wrong. It's ok to take food breaks but if you commit to a TF make sure you can be there to help...

I'd have kicked. If you agree to do a TF, you know its an investment of time and energy and others are counting on you to do your job.

I remember this call for Posi, and was interested, but knew I only had about an hour to spare so I didn't join.
I might be inclined to be far more lenient on a Dr.Q tho. Way I figure it, let them stay on team but if they've done less than 1/2 the TF and we're into the final fight....boot.

No free merits off someone else's back.

My general guideline that I give folks that ask about how long a TF takes is:

If you can't commit to at least two hours (for most of them), don't join. Yes, many can be done in far shorter time, but with PuGs, not so much. Things happen, people disconnect, parents want their kids to do something for a few min, etc, and speed runs don't always work like they should.

If you join a TF knowing that you'll probably have to leave in the middle of it for more than a bathroom break or answering a phone call, you should expect to be kicked, and surprised and grateful that you didn't. Even if you tell the team up front, and especially if it's a small team that's relying on each person to be there contributing, like a 3 man Posi.

Personally I would have based it off of the performance b4 they had to go. If they were pulling their weight and they stated " told you i didnt know how long id be gone." I would have worked thru it.

Id suggest next time you run a posi you pull from your global list to avoid such issues. never the less My standing rule for TFs is 2 missions. then take the team survey. depending on my mood it may be worded

Anyone opposed to giving *such and such* a few minutes?

or it may just come out

Hey *such and such* Knock knock..../kick.

from the look of the chat log it looks like the person took it rather well. when you got the peace sign i think you should have let things lie. your need to get the last word in does effect your overall repuation to Forces point. was there a discussion prior to you kicking them? did they say they were going to be on the rest of the tf to help out? again i would suggest in the future on long tfs like shard, posi, synapse, citadel, and sister psyche or a masters run at least 75% of the team should be from your global list. on the quicker ones like ITF/LGTF/manti/numina/katie 50/50 should get you thru unscathed.

Kick the leeches.

I would've kicked'em. End o' story.

Now that people have had a chance to voice their opinions I'll address a few of the posters. There is an interesting variety of opinions. First thing I want to say is I don't believe that having the star gives you the right to do whatever you want. Having the star does give you the ability to be as nasty as you want. When I lead I consult the team and ask their opinions and after they weigh in we decide what to do. It isn't the best way to lead but at least it is fair.

A good team could have run a Posi in about 1.5 hours. We weren't that good team and ended up completing it at about 3:09. With her contributing over that hour she was gone we likely would have taken off 20 minutes. For the whole TF having all 3 people we likely would have completed it in 2.5 hours. That is about 39 minutes of my time and Sylvar's.


Hyperstrike: I might seem a bit inflexible but I discussed it with Panda before any decision was made after she was gone 40 minutes. Then after an hour passed she was kicked. Saying your coming back to me isn't the right to come back whenever you get around to it. An hour on this Posi was 1/3rd of the TF she was gone and not contributing.

Talon Arsenal: There was no warning of having to go to dinner. From what I gather if it was "a huge family deal" then having to leave wasn't a surprise.

Ynaught: You seem to be having the same problem I had when I was discussing kicking her. I hate kicking people. I have only ever had to kick 2-3 other people in over 5 years. I don't think a reasonable amount of time would have been that bad but to me that time was crossed at the hour mark. If it was a PUG then that reasonable time would have been when Sylvar and I started discussing it at about the 40 min mark. I tend to give more slack when it is a TF.

Critical Kat: I figure if all 3 of us were in the TF we could have done it in 2.5 hours. Of course I can't penalize her for the extra time after kicking her. I can say about 20-25 minutes was added during the Dinner break. Since it was Sylvar's time as well we discussed it before any decision was made.

Force: The reason for posting this is feedback. I don't want to automatically think that my decision was the best because I think it was. I have no problem if real life strikes. If there was a problem that forces the issue then you have to take care of real life first. The 2 biggest things that weighed in was the person knowing before they joined they would be gone a long time and the length of time seemed excessive. I try and conduct myself pretty well because as you say because I value my reputation. That doesn't necessarily mean I expect everyone to agree with me but I'm hoping I've at least earned their respect.

4shes: I did screw up here. I should have had the discussion in team chat before kicking. The tells wasn't me having the need to have the last word. Sylvar and I were in a room full of CoT and I wasn't able to type as well as I would have liked when trying to stay alive and type a tell at the same time. If it was during a more restful time I would have said something along the lines of "Sylvar and I talked after you were gone for about 40 minutes. If you had of been back sooner you would have gotten some slack. Being gone for over an hour is too long to be gone." Unfortunately I have to go with what I was able to say rather then what I would have liked to say. There was no discussion so that is my fault there.

Critical Kat: I did screw up by not talking before the kick.

Thank you all for your opinions. I appreciate the responses because it gives me a better perspective on if I was out of line and opinions on what I should have done. Not wanting to have to decide if someone should be kicked and deciding who I trust to contribute to the TF is a large reason I avoid the star. Not that I can't be the bad guy. I just prefer to be the blood crazed scrapper killing things.

Don't join a TF around dinner time if you're expected at the table. You can always find one later.

I have never kicked anyone from team, it is against my policy, unless the person is disruptive to the team and refuses to take a warning or two.
I agree with Force.
There was no harm with the person being afk.
BTW Sylvar Panda is Way Cool Panda

Personally I would've kicked 'em with a snappy remark.

"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain

I most likly would have kicked them.

I have given the leaders of TF warning before starting that I would have to leave and get my daughter, my static team knows the middle point as I break for the good night agro (short book and tuck in my daughter) one of the nice things about being a single father.

If I ahve to leave at x time for something .. I tend to wait until the TF is done and leave even if I am late.

Most everyone knows you generally can't do a posi in under 2 hours. Anyone joining that TF knowing that they would have to leave in an hour should have mentioned that fact at the beginning. Several times I've asked about TF's saying I've only got an hour or so. Some say join for as long as you can, other say, thanks but no thanks.

I don't blame the kickee for taking time off for dinner. They seem to have understood fairly well that they were gone for just too long a time.

On the other hand, I don't like to kick people. If you think they were leaching off you then certainly, kick them. If you think they were gone for a legitimate reason, then probably not kick them.

btw, I was on a Numina last week and something came up at home that required attention. We had just called up the last mission when I told everyone I had to go and they should finish the mission. I turned off the computer but didn't log and when I came back, I had gotten the merits and the badge for the TF.

Except for those people who three man them in under two hours. Except for them.