Ultra-mode video card shopping guide
By
5th_Player,
Posted on: 2009-11-25 11:21 in Developers' Corner
Quote:
City of Heroes uses the OpenGL API for graphics. It does not use DirectX.|
Originally Posted by Back_Blast
Well the system specs for CoX do mention DX9 but those specs are pretty old. Also, I think it has been mentioned they are using OpenGL in order to support Mac clients since they don't/can't use DX so far as I know. So I'd expect OpenGL is the key tech for CoX now and for the future GR and UM stuff. But I can't prove any of it.
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Currently the only DirectX technology known to be used by the game is for the sound interfaces, however the question has been raised of a conversion to OpenSL ES (Khronos Specification) or OpenAL (Creative specification).
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just wondering, has it been confirmed in some way that directx 10+ are not used in ultra mode? a forum search suggested opengl was being used to implement it, but nothing redname popped out at me. i only ask as i idly consider upgrading from xp and dx 9.c to win7 and dx 11 with a 5870 (that will likely be cheaper in 4-6 mos/rogue range for this and other games). thanks for all the info spread throughout the thread so far. |
As OpenGL is crossplatform you will have the same image quality regardless of what Operating System you use, as long as the OpenGL calls used are supported.
Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SItM3OLqb5w|
Originally Posted by spice_weasel
just wondering, has it been confirmed in some way that directx 10+ are not used in ultra mode? a forum search suggested opengl was being used to implement it, but nothing redname popped out at me.
i only ask as i idly consider upgrading from xp and dx 9.c to win7 and dx 11 with a 5870 (that will likely be cheaper in 4-6 mos/rogue range for this and other games). thanks for all the info spread throughout the thread so far. |
Around the 9:12 mark.
"No features Vista or Windows 7 dependent."
DX10 is only for Vista, and DX11 is only for Vista and Windows 7. You're fine with XP, although you'll want a DX10 card at least because, well, they're so freakin' awesome at DX9 games
Quick question I didn't see an answer to...
The GTX295 is a two GPU solution, right? Two GPUs on a single (big ol' brick of a) card.
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As I understand how these dual GPUs work, they are internally connected via an SLI bridge. Does the statement from Posi above indicate that, until they fix the issue, a one-card, two GPU solution won't be any different than a single GPU?
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Originally Posted by Positron
Also noteworthy is that Ultra Mode does not currently support SLI configured cards. Were working with NVidia and ATI about this, but you all can speed up the process by contacting NVidia and ATI about updating things on their end to get it to work.
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I already have a 650w Antec power supply i got last year, so I'm presuming that'll be adequate for any power supply needs i may have.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Well if Posi's recommendations are correct, the GT 240, even with GDDR5 memory, is a bit on the low side. Problem is anything more powerful will require external power and that brings up the whole issue about having a decent PSU.
But since we don't know the actual impact on performance with Ultra Mode, even on it's minimum settings, relative to current performance as well as what you may consider to be an acceptable resolution and frame rate, there may be a combination of settings that you would feel OK with. |
But the 240 is LOW? Dang, from what I've read it blows my current card out of the water and runs modern games great.. I would hope that it could run an old game with some modern bells and whistles good, too!
Hmm, if i get some cheaper memory, i can probably slide with getting a slightly more expensive GPU (a 250)... won't give me EVERYTHING, but i won't be on the low end fro ultramode anymore, so that'll be good =)
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Until SLI is fixed, I'd say yes. The 295 is effectively two GPUs in SLI so it's not gonna give you the full value until SLI issues get resolved.|
Originally Posted by Agonist_NA
Quick question I didn't see an answer to...
The GTX295 is a two GPU solution, right? Two GPUs on a single (big ol' brick of a) card. As I understand how these dual GPUs work, they are internally connected via an SLI bridge. Does the statement from Posi above indicate that, until they fix the issue, a one-card, two GPU solution won't be any different than a single GPU? |
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
I already have a 650w Antec power supply i got last year, so I'm presuming that'll be adequate for any power supply needs i may have.
But the 240 is LOW? Dang, from what I've read it blows my current card out of the water and runs modern games great.. I would hope that it could run an old game with some modern bells and whistles good, too! Hmm, if i get some cheaper memory, i can probably slide with getting a slightly more expensive GPU (a 250)... won't give me EVERYTHING, but i won't be on the low end fro ultramode anymore, so that'll be good =) |
It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.
Quote:
The GT 240, even the one with GDDR5 memory, is at best the same performance level as the 9600GT. Don't take my word for it.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
I already have a 650w Antec power supply i got last year, so I'm presuming that'll be adequate for any power supply needs i may have.
But the 240 is LOW? Dang, from what I've read it blows my current card out of the water and runs modern games great.. I would hope that it could run an old game with some modern bells and whistles good, too! Hmm, if i get some cheaper memory, i can probably slide with getting a slightly more expensive GPU (a 250)... won't give me EVERYTHING, but i won't be on the low end fro ultramode anymore, so that'll be good =) |
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Guh... I really prefered it when Nvidia stuck to the 4 number system.. they should have graduated to a five number system, but no-o-o-o-o. They Dropped a number and proceeded to make new cards that are inferior to ones made 3 years ago. Thanks, guys >_<
So what about the 250 series? Would that be a better investment for the extra 20 bucks and get me out of low/mid-range territory? I realize it's not the best card on the market (i've seen something like a gtx 285?), but I can't justify buying anything higher, so i'm stuck in the mid-range, and I'm fine with that... I just don't want it to be useless for what I'm planning (IE Ultramode)
Guess I gots ta do more research...
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Quick one: so Ultra Mode will provide shadows, and reflexive surfaces.. are those the main features?
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Quote:
http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/gam..._overview.html|
Originally Posted by DeathSentry
Quick one: so Ultra Mode will provide shadows, and reflexive surfaces.. are those the main features?
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| Ultra Mode includes a superior graphics rendering process for players who have higher-end graphic cards. Each feature can be enabled or disabled in the graphics menu options and will be scalable. Ultra Mode works on both Macs and PCs. In specific, it offers dynamic shadows, screen-space ambient occlusion, and dynamic environment reflections (including planar reflections and environment mapping of reflective surfaces). |
Ambient occlusions is how an object appears dimmer when it's in a shadow of another object.
This describes it better and provides some pictures for comparison purposes.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
I'd like to know if this will play Ultra Mode well? Yes I understand that we don't have the exact specs for UM yet, but...
Intel Core2 Quad Q9000 2.0GHz (6MB Cache, 1066MHz FSB)
8GB Dual Channel DDR3 at 1333MHz 2 x 4096MB
SLI Dual 1GB GDDR3 NVIDIA GeForce (NB10E-GTX1)
512GB (256GB x 2) Solid State Drive - RAID 0
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Well my Google-fu says that video card is a 280M. This an Alienware laptop? That seems to be the big hits I found hunting for it. Anyways, the first news is that the SLI will do you no good as there is no multi-GPU support for UM as yet. So your performance will be based on a single 280M. The 280M itself is essentially just an 8800GTS 512MB rebranded and made for laptops. The minimum card listed by Posi is the 9800GT. Based on that, I'd expect you could generally get UM to run at about minimum specs but likely no better. If they get SLI working, it may improve some but how much is open to question. The rest of the specs look fine but that mobile graphics chip is going to be your main shortcoming. Mobile chips are never as good as their desktop equivalents, despite the fact that manufacturers love to name them similarly to try and make you believe otherwise. Laptops just don't have the same power and cooling capabilities and thus cannot run the top-end chips like desktops can.
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Originally Posted by Thaumator
I'd like to know if this will play Ultra Mode well? Yes I understand that we don't have the exact specs for UM yet, but...
Intel Core2 Quad Q9000 2.0GHz (6MB Cache, 1066MHz FSB) 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 at 1333MHz 2 x 4096MB SLI Dual 1GB GDDR3 NVIDIA GeForce (NB10E-GTX1) 512GB (256GB x 2) Solid State Drive - RAID 0 |
It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.
K, so with my tax return, etc, I'm planning on getting a new computer within 2-3 weeks.
Been talking to some friends, family and getting advice. I want to make sure it will run Ultra mode when I7 hits with no problems on the highest video settings.
Here's the system:
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/saving/show.aspx?id=2510696
As far as specs, it has:
CPU: Intel® CoreT i7-930 2.80 GHz 8M L3 Cache LGA1366
Single Hard Drive (1TB (1TBx1) SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD)
MOTHERBOARD: Asus P6T SE Intel X58 Chipset CrossFireX Mainboard Triple-Channel DDR3/1600 SATA RAID w/ eSATA
MEMORY: 6GB (2GBx3) DDR3/1600MHz Triple Channel Memory Module
Microsoft® Windows® 7 Professional (64-bit Edition)
Power supply: 600 Watts Power Supplies (XtremeGear SLI/CrossFireX Ready Power Supply)
Video card: ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB DDR5 16X PCIe Video Card
I like the review of that video card found here:
http://computershopper.com/graphics-...radeon-hd-5770
so I thought it for sure would be a good mid-range card.
Any thoughts/advice on this sytem?
Thanks in advance.
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posi has said that performance from the 5770 is pretty good so you should be Ok. personally with a beast of a machien like that you may as well go the whole way and try and get an ATI 5850. if anything that Graphics card is a little too slow for the rest of the machine.
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@Miss Chief
Quote:
The preceding post is quite correct. While the 5770 is a solid piece of hardware, it will -not- run UM (based on what we know, currently) on maximum settings, which you stated quite clearly as the goal.|
Originally Posted by Drummz
K, so with my tax return, etc, I'm planning on getting a new computer within 2-3 weeks.
Been talking to some friends, family and getting advice. I want to make sure it will run Ultra mode when I7 hits with no problems on the highest video settings. Here's the system: http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/saving/show.aspx?id=2510696 As far as specs, it has: CPU: Intel® CoreT i7-930 2.80 GHz 8M L3 Cache LGA1366 Single Hard Drive (1TB (1TBx1) SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD) MOTHERBOARD: Asus P6T SE Intel X58 Chipset CrossFireX Mainboard Triple-Channel DDR3/1600 SATA RAID w/ eSATA MEMORY: 6GB (2GBx3) DDR3/1600MHz Triple Channel Memory Module Microsoft® Windows® 7 Professional (64-bit Edition) Power supply: 600 Watts Power Supplies (XtremeGear SLI/CrossFireX Ready Power Supply) Video card: ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB DDR5 16X PCIe Video Card I like the review of that video card found here: http://computershopper.com/graphics-...radeon-hd-5770 so I thought it for sure would be a good mid-range card. Any thoughts/advice on this sytem? Thanks in advance. |
You want something like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102872
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Yeah, the ati 5850 would be nice, but atm I just can't afford that much video card. In the long run if I wanted to, I can always add a 2nd card to the system, but for now, I'll have to run it as is.|
Originally Posted by Miss Chief
posi has said that performance from the 5770 is pretty good so you should be Ok. personally with a beast of a machien like that you may as well go the whole way and try and get an ATI 5850. if anything that Graphics card is a little too slow for the rest of the machine.
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Thanks for the advice, though
37 lvl 50s: 3 Brutes, 2 Stalkers, 2 Tankers, 7 Masterminds, 2 Scrappers, 3 Blasters, 3 Controllers, 3 Corruptors, Peacebringer, 2 SoA (Crab, Bane), 3 Defenders, Widow, 3 Dominators, Warshade, Fortunata
Next question, what parts, if any, of Ultra-Mode will NOT be available in XP? Does this differ by card manufacturer?
Thanks!
Quote:
OpenGL deary. Not DirectX. Please read the thread.|
Originally Posted by Agonist_NA
Next question, what parts, if any, of Ultra-Mode will NOT be available in XP? Does this differ by card manufacturer?
Thanks! |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=502
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=464
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=446
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=444
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=379
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=347
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=268
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=257
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=224
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=211
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=210
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=206
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...0&postcount=67
And yes, we did get a developer to directly comment (indirectly) on CoH's graphics engine.
Oops. I did it again. Yes. Television did say the following. No, I forgot the quote wasn't visible to everybody.
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| Also, I don't think that most Linux video drivers quite support all the stuff we're doing in OpenGL. However, people who play in, develop for or even just use Linux are and will always be true friends of the Television. |
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You could, though at this point there's been no confirmation that Crossfire (2xATI GPU) or SLI (nVidia x2) will be supported by UM. If it isn't, then buying an additional card won't benefit you at all...it may actually degrade performance a little.|
Originally Posted by Drummz
Yeah, the ati 5850 would be nice, but atm I just can't afford that much video card. In the long run if I wanted to, I can always add a 2nd card to the system, but for now, I'll have to run it as is.
Thanks for the advice, though |
In conclusion, pester AMD/ATI. ^_^
Thanks je saist.
Yes, I knew that it used Open GL, but I was under the impression that some of the fancy stuff (e.g. ambient occluded shading) would only work with DX10/11 on the nVidia cards, so it was really more of a question about OpenGL call compatibility. Or maybe it was Microsoft gremlins whispering in my ear at night...
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Microsoft gremlins.|
Originally Posted by Agonist_NA
Thanks je saist.
Yes, I knew that it used Open GL, but I was under the impression that some of the fancy stuff (e.g. ambient occluded shading) would only work with DX10/11 on the nVidia cards, so it was really more of a question about OpenGL call compatibility. Or maybe it was Microsoft gremlins whispering in my ear at night... |
Okay, I understand your question now. The thing is, you can use DirectX as a feature basis, since Microsoft and partners like FutureMark have done a better job of communicating what each release of DirectX does or supports.
DirectX 9 is about equivalent to OpenGL 2.0
DirectX 9c is about equivalent to OpenGL 2.1
DirectX 10 is about equivalent to OpenGL 3.0
DirectX 11 is about equivalent to OpenGL 3.2
For Ultra Mode graphics you do need a physical card that supports DirectX 10 / OpenGL 3.0.
You, however, do not need an Operating System that supports DirectX 10.
Right now, in theory, if you are using... say... a RadeonHD 4850... you'll get the same visual image across Windows NT5 (2000/Xp), Windows NT6 (Vista/Win7), Linux (Cedega), and OSX (Cider).
Now, while it can be confirmed that Ultra Mode doesn't require an NT6 operating system... I'm afraid there's a limit on just how much else can be said at this point.
(like, if you have a card that only supports DX9 / OGL 2.0, Ultra Mode features are not exposed in the game client)
Hmm, interesting stuff je saist. Does it boil down to which vid card manufactuerer is "truer" in its implementation of OpenGL then? I understand that a number of people had/have problems with ATI cards and certain visual features, but these cards are "OpenGL generational equivalents" to nVidia cards that do not.
(To be fair, certain nVidia cards had weird, driver-related problems - I experienced a couple myself, but they were driver not hardware and quickly resolved...)
I anticipate my current card, a 8800 GTX may be able to render Ultra Mode, but as a slide show...
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hmmm. I'm not sure I can answer that truthfully in regards to the City of Heroes game without breaking NDA right now.|
Originally Posted by Agonist_NA
Hmm, interesting stuff je saist. Does it boil down to which vid card manufactuerer is "truer" in its implementation of OpenGL then? I understand that a number of people had/have problems with ATI cards and certain visual features, but these cards are "OpenGL generational equivalents" to nVidia cards that do not.
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I can tell you, that... from an implementation of OpenGL itself, OpenGL has become a lot more like DirectX. What I mean by this is that more of the actual processing is described in the specification, leaving less room for one single vendors interpretation of how what that processing is supposed to produce.
In the previous history, certain vendors (aka Nvidia) were prone to implement proprietary OpenGL extensions. One of the primary reasons Nvidia was known for this is that the OpenGL architecture review board moved at a speed that even Glaciers would call a bit slow.
Khronos's.... overtake... of the OpenGL API changed this speed of development, and the wiggle room of developers implementing the specification. As of OpenGL 3.0, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room for true-er implementations. Ergo, with the OpenGL 3.0 cards, if somebody is using the specification from Khronos as the reference guide, you should get identical images regardless of what graphics card you use.
Right now, neither Nvidia nor ATi are pushing any vendor-specific OpenGL extensions that I'm aware of; and at least the RadeonHD 2x00-4x00 series of cards from AMD, and the Geforce 8x00 - GTX 2xx series of cards are all capable of running the OpenGL 3.0 feature set.
Whether or not the entire feature set is exposed in the drivers...
well. I can't answer this fully in regards to CoH... at least not without stepping on more toes than I want to.
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(To be fair, certain nVidia cards had weird, driver-related problems - I experienced a couple myself, but they were driver not hardware and quickly resolved...) I anticipate my current card, a 8800 GTX may be able to render Ultra Mode, but as a slide show... |
Question that will sounds stupid but I was looking at the Compasian of Graphic card posted on page one and did the 9800 GT come in both a 512 and 1 GB format? I have the latter and well i wondering how well it will handle Ultra mode.
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The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
i only ask as i idly consider upgrading from xp and dx 9.c to win7 and dx 11 with a 5870 (that will likely be cheaper in 4-6 mos/rogue range for this and other games).
thanks for all the info spread throughout the thread so far.
It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.